They got fuzzy because they let Hellenistic ideas come in, and the pagan Greek thought was allowed to distort the truth...
Understanding what Sheol, Hell, Hades mean.
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The separation from God is for eternity never to allow any path to be restored. So its forever..
No one has gone to hell as they have to await the judgement, so you have no one who can even teach this..
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Hellenistic ideas where not part of the Old Testament.
Nowhere in the Old Testament does God threaten the Jews with Hell for sinning. Nor does He define Satan as a devil or even talk to anybody about Satan. Nor does God offer Heaven as a reward for obeying the Mosaic Law. No Salvation in the Old Testament.
Hellenistic ideas were mostly about Pagan gods and customs. ….they did not have a Heaven or Hell in their beliefs.
Luke chapter 16
Sheol in Hebrew means = hell.
Jesus taught analogy.
Richman died went to sheol.
Lazarus died and went to paradise.
There's two sides of the gulf. Neither side can cross over.
Wicked are in sheol.
Righteous in paradise.
Those in sheol are waiting for judgement day.
They are judged by their works, revelation chapter 20 to document.
Sheol is holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked.
Sheol in Hebrew means = hell.
Jesus taught analogy.
Richman died went to sheol.
Lazarus died and went to paradise.
There's two sides of the gulf. Neither side can cross over.
Wicked are in sheol.
Righteous in paradise.
Those in sheol are waiting for judgement day.
They are judged by their works, revelation chapter 20 to document.
Sheol is holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked.
Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell! The rich man died but was very much alive!
Luke 16
19 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Beware brethren in Christ of the old Jewish myths of what happens to us after death of our flesh body. They, the orthodox Jewish traditions, still believe in a FLESH afterlife for the future resurrection, showing they just are not... willing to recognize that the body type of the resurrection is to a "spiritual body"...
1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV
1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV
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You have a problem, how could there be a place of punishment before sin, need to rethink that...
Those who end up in the everlasting fire that Jesus clearly taught will be too busy to worry about the name of the place.
Berean
Well-Known Member
Jesus also stated:
“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire." - Matthew 18:8
Are we to take this literally? If so, why aren't the majority of Christians handicapped?
Has judgement happened yet?Most of those condemned will be Judge in the white thrown Judgement for their deeds which has not happened yet.If your not being raised up death is hell the lake of fire is for later with the final judgement.All humans will be raised up for judgement the bible is clear on this.The question is what is happening now until judgement is everyone waiting or have they been Judged?There are those who worship and praise Satan they chose their fate no judgement needed.
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Berean
Well-Known Member
Christian’s are given Holy Spirit and fire…
It seems believers enter the fire before non believers do… if that fire is coming from God it could only have purgative value. It seems Yahavah is in the heavenly kingdom, and his seems to be claimed as a fire and people live on the outside of the gates, away from.
I’m glad hell is over with. The fire of Yahavah continues to go, but hell, is done away with in the Bible…
People who continue to suggest that people are still in Sheol, are surely mistaken, if they believe of course that Jesus did not fail his mission in getting the bride of Christ in that time.
It seems believers enter the fire before non believers do… if that fire is coming from God it could only have purgative value. It seems Yahavah is in the heavenly kingdom, and his seems to be claimed as a fire and people live on the outside of the gates, away from.
I’m glad hell is over with. The fire of Yahavah continues to go, but hell, is done away with in the Bible…
People who continue to suggest that people are still in Sheol, are surely mistaken, if they believe of course that Jesus did not fail his mission in getting the bride of Christ in that time.
You are off in your understanding of it, as Sheol is not the place where evil people go, it’s just the place where everyone goes. Everyone dies and goes down to Sheol, the grave. If you look at the original Hebrew, you read that Jacob knew he would go there, eventually. Here was his response after he (falsely) heard that his son Joseph had died..
Genesis 37:35
34 And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.
35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave (Sheol [Sh’olah שְׁאֹ֑לָה] unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
Sheol is the grave, and other words which meant the same thing such as pit. We have the same thing in English, multiple words meaning the same thing- grave, tomb, sepulchre, cemetery plot, burial chamber, even 'six feet under'.
When you look at the original Hebrew, its clear what they were saying..
Job 17:11-16
11 My days are past, my purposes are broken off, even the thoughts of my heart.
12 They change the night into day: the light is short because of darkness.
13 If I wait, the grave (Sheol [Sh’ohl שְׁא֣וֹל]) is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit (Sheol [sh’ol שְׁאֹ֣ל]), when our rest together is in the dust.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The words Hell and Hades do not appear in the Old or New Testaments and the Hebrew language did not have words for them.
Hades is a Greco-Roman god that presided over a realm called Hades. More of a spirit prison than a place of torment.
Sheol is more or less a depository for nearly all souls.
The word Hell is from Anglo Saxon and then German around 725 AD.
Full explanation in posts 5….26…..58….64
Christians have been confused by the many Greek pagan myths and philosophy was allowed in, and scripture was thrown aside, and we can see what they did if we only dig below the surface...
Here is a good study on the history of hell that I came across:
"...The word Hell, in the Old Testament, is always a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, which occurs sixty-four times, and is rendered "hell" thirty-two times, "grave" twenty-nine times, and "pit" three times.
1. By examination of the Hebrew Scriptures it will be found that its radical or primary meaning is, The place or state of the dead.
The following are examples: "Ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave." Gen. xvii 38. "I will go down to the grave to my son mourning." xxxviii 35. "O that thou wouldst hide me in the grave!" Job xiV 13. "My life draweth nigh to the grave." Ps. lxxxviiI 3. "In the grave who shall give thee thanks?" lxxxvi 5. "Our bones are scattered at the grave's mouth." cxlI 7. "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecc. ix. 10. "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold thou art there." Ps. cxxxix. 8. "Hell from beneath is moved to meet thee, at thy coming. It stirreth up the dead for thee," &c. Isaiah xiV 9-15.
These passages show the Hebrew usage of the word sheol, which is the original of the word "grave" and "hell" in all the examples cited. It is plain that it has here no reference to a place of endless torment after death. The patriarch would scarcely say, "I will go down to an endless hell to my son mourning." He did not believe his son was in any such place. Job would not very likely pray to God to hide him in a place of endless torment, in order to be delivered from his troubles.
If the reader will substitute the word "hell" in the place of "grave" in all these passages, he will be in the way of understanding the Scripture doctrine on this subject.
2. But there is also a figurative sense to the word sheol, which is frequently met with in the later Scriptures of the Old Testament. Used in this sense, it represents a state of degradation or calamity, arising from any cause, whether misfortune, sin, or the judgment of God.
This is an easy and natural transition. The state or the place of the dead was regarded as solemn and gloomy, and thence the word sheol, the name of this place, came to be applied to any gloomy, or miserable state or condition. The following passages are examples: "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me." Psalm xvii 4-6. This was a past event, and therefore the hell must have been this side of death. Solomon, speaking of a child, says, "Thou shalt beat him, and deliver his soul from hell;" that is, from the ruin and woe of disobedience. ProV xxiiI 14. The Lord says to Israel, in reference to their idolatries, "Thou didst debase thyself even unto hell." Isaiah lvii 9. This, of course, signifies a state of utter moral degradation and wickedness, since the Jewish nation as such certainly never went down into a hell of ceaseless woe. Jonah says, "Out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardst me." ii 2. Here we see the absurdity of supposing sheol or hell to mean a place of punishment after death. The hell in this case was the belly of the whale; or rather the wretched and suffering condition in which the disobedient prophet found himself. "The pains of hell got hold on me: I found trouble and sorrow." Ps. cxvi 3. Yet David was a living man, all this while, here on the earth. So he exclaims again, "Great is thy mercy towards me. Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." Ps. lxxxvi 13. Now here the Psalmist was in the lowest hell, and was delivered from it, while he was yet in the body, before death. Of course the hell here cannot be a place of endless punishment after death.
These passages sufficiently illustrate the figurative usage of the word sheol, "hell." They show plainly that it was employed by the Jews as a symbol or figure of extreme degradation or suffering, without reference to the cause. And it is to this condition the Psalmist refers when he says, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Ps. ix. 17. Though Dr. Allen, President of Bowdoin College, thinks "the punishment expressed here is cutting off from life, destroying from earth by some special judgment, and removing to the invisible place of the dead" (sheol).
It is plain, then, from these citations, that the word sheol, "hell," makes nothing for the doctrine of future unending punishment as a part of the Law penalties. It is never used by Moses or the Prophets in the sense of a place of torment after death; and in no way conflicts with the statement already proved, that the Law of Moses deals wholly in temporal rewards and punishments....
..This position, also, I wish to fortify by the testimony of Orthodox critics, men of learning and candor. They know, and therefore they speak.
1. CHAPMAN. "Sheol, in itself considered, has no connection with future punishment." Cited by Balfour, First Inquiry.
2. DR. ALLEN, quoted above, says: "The term sheol does not seem to mean, with certainty, anything more than the state of the dead in their deep abode."
3. DR. CAMPBELL. "Sheol signifies the state of the dead without regard to their happiness or misery."
4. DR. WHITBY. "Sheol throughout the Old Testament signifies not the place of punishment, or of the souls of bad men only, but the grave only, or the place of death."
5. DR. MUENSCHER. This distinguished author of a Dogmatic History in German, says: "The souls or shades of the dead wander in sheol, the realm or kingdom of death, an abode deep under the earth. Thither go all men, without distinction, and hope for no return. There ceases all pain and anguish; there reigns an unbroken silence; there all is powerless and still; and even the praise of God is heard no more."
6. VON COELLN. "Sheol itself is described as the house appointed for all living, which receives into its bosom all mankind, without distinction of rank, wealth, or moral character. It is only in the mode of death, and not in the condition after death, that the good are distinguished above the evil. The just, for instance, die in peace, and are gently borne away before the evil comes; while a bitter death breaks the wicked like as a tree." 2
These witnesses all testify that sheol, or hell, in the Old Testament, has no reference whatever to this doctrine; that it signifies simply the state of the dead, the invisible world, without regard to their goodness or badness, their happiness or misery. The Old Testament doctrine of hell, therefore, is not the doctrine of endless punishment. It is not revealed in the Law of Moses. It is not revealed in the Old Testament....
Any one at all familiar with the writings of the ancient Greeks or Romans, cannot fail to note how often it is admitted by them that the national religions were the inventions of the legislator and the priest, for the purpose of governing and restraining the common people. Hence, all the early lawgivers claim to have had communications with the gods, who aided them in the preparation of their codes. Zoroaster claimed to have received his laws from a divine source; Lycurgus obtained his from Apollo, Minos of Crete from Jupiter, Numa of Rome from Egeria, Zaleucus from Minerva, &c. The object of this sacred fraud was to impress the minds of the multitude with religious awe, and command a more ready obedience on their part. Hence Augustine says, in his "City of God," "This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to deceive the people in their religion; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves knew to be idle fables; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society." B. iV 32....
1. CHAPMAN. "Sheol, in itself considered, has no connection with future punishment." Cited by Balfour, First Inquiry.
2. DR. ALLEN, quoted above, says: "The term sheol does not seem to mean, with certainty, anything more than the state of the dead in their deep abode."
3. DR. CAMPBELL. "Sheol signifies the state of the dead without regard to their happiness or misery."
4. DR. WHITBY. "Sheol throughout the Old Testament signifies not the place of punishment, or of the souls of bad men only, but the grave only, or the place of death."
5. DR. MUENSCHER. This distinguished author of a Dogmatic History in German, says: "The souls or shades of the dead wander in sheol, the realm or kingdom of death, an abode deep under the earth. Thither go all men, without distinction, and hope for no return. There ceases all pain and anguish; there reigns an unbroken silence; there all is powerless and still; and even the praise of God is heard no more."
6. VON COELLN. "Sheol itself is described as the house appointed for all living, which receives into its bosom all mankind, without distinction of rank, wealth, or moral character. It is only in the mode of death, and not in the condition after death, that the good are distinguished above the evil. The just, for instance, die in peace, and are gently borne away before the evil comes; while a bitter death breaks the wicked like as a tree." 2
These witnesses all testify that sheol, or hell, in the Old Testament, has no reference whatever to this doctrine; that it signifies simply the state of the dead, the invisible world, without regard to their goodness or badness, their happiness or misery. The Old Testament doctrine of hell, therefore, is not the doctrine of endless punishment. It is not revealed in the Law of Moses. It is not revealed in the Old Testament....
Any one at all familiar with the writings of the ancient Greeks or Romans, cannot fail to note how often it is admitted by them that the national religions were the inventions of the legislator and the priest, for the purpose of governing and restraining the common people. Hence, all the early lawgivers claim to have had communications with the gods, who aided them in the preparation of their codes. Zoroaster claimed to have received his laws from a divine source; Lycurgus obtained his from Apollo, Minos of Crete from Jupiter, Numa of Rome from Egeria, Zaleucus from Minerva, &c. The object of this sacred fraud was to impress the minds of the multitude with religious awe, and command a more ready obedience on their part. Hence Augustine says, in his "City of God," "This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to deceive the people in their religion; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves knew to be idle fables; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society." B. iV 32....
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