OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[GodsGrace]

You are here for a specific reason? What reason? Teach me what the CC believe?

Again, disagreement and you are slapping a label on me-this is going nowhere.

I'll reply to the reason part....
We all join these boards for different reasons.
Most join, believe it or not, to teach others.
I'm not here to teach anybody anything.
I'm here for fellowship but most times I just find arguing.
I told you I'm not Catholic.
Why would I want to teach you what the Catholic church believes?
And do you think EVERYTHING they teach is wrong?
But that's a different conversation.

And, again,,,,WHAT label did I slap on you?
This would be interesting to know.
But not critical.

 

[Johann]

I'm here for fellowship but most times I just find arguing.

It seems you’re just as inclined to argue with those who disagree with you as they are with you.

I told you I'm not Catholic.

Good to know.

And do you think EVERYTHING they teach is wrong?

No.

And, again,,,,WHAT label did I slap on you?

Reformed theology, Calvinism,when we have a disagreement and your assumption that I believe babies go to hell.
Thanks.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What separates us from God?
Sin.

1 cor 15: 21 For since by man camedeath, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive

I am really not sure why you keep fighting this. Yes, the wage of sin is death, which means when we commit our first sin, we have earned our own death.

But God had a deeper plan. He put all people under adam, and in adam. All are born dead. Seperated to God. He did this, so that he could also put those same people in Christ. so they could be raised from the dead (spiritually speaking here in all things)

A baby who is born is “in adam” By Being ” in Adam” that baby is spiritual dead.. and must be made alive.

thus the question comes, what happens if the baby dies before it commits its first sin? And second, what happens if they did before they reach the age of accountability

there are two trains of thoughts. Since that baby did not have a chance to repent, he will be in heaven (yes, Jesus raising from the dead took care of the “in adam” issue) and since they never commited any sin, they are not condemned

the other train of Thought is God is omniscient, he knows all things, He knows if that child lived long enough, whether they would have repented and come to him, or if no matter what happened, they would never come to him, and their eternity is based on that.

I personally lead toward the second option. But I am not clear so will not lay my life down for either option.

When we reach the age of accountability, we then begin to sin.

Oh we sin long before we reach this age. Any time a child says no and goes against his parents wishes, they have sinned. A baby is proof positive that we have a sin nature. It is our nature to take for self.. It is also in this token innocent, in that it is easily trained and easily taught because its will has not had time to mature yet. Thats why jesus said it is easier for a child to come to him,

There are definitions for sin....

1. A person must know what a sin is.
2. He must be aware that he is committing the sin.
3. It has to be willful.

Can you show me this in scripture?

Can a baby do/know the above?
Then he cannot sin.

I disagree

Psalm 51:3-4


3For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.

4Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,

Can a baby do the above?

Have you had a baby?

Babies are stained with original sin.
They're born with the sin nature --eventually they will be held accountable.
They are not IMPUTED with Adam's sin.

yes they are

In Adam all die, even so in christ shall all be made alive

We are each responsible for our own sin.

Galatians 6.5
4But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.
5For each one will bear his own load.

Ezekiel 18:19
The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

True

But a baby is still born dead.. There is nothing you or anyone else can say that will change this basic fact.

In adam ALL (All means all) are dead.

In Christ shall all (yes, the opportunity is there for all to take advantage, inspite of the Calvinist view that this is not the case) shall be made alive.

There are many things that cause this barrier between God and man.

1. Original sin, or being in adam
2. Our own personal sin
3. Our will
4. Our selfishness
5. Our pride

I can go on and on and on.

all of these things have to be taken care of for us to have any true relationship with God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Interesting-
What did the early Church Fathers write about "original sin" before Augustine?
My son is severely cerebral palsied and I'm sure you are more sure than me.
Maybe off topic.
J.

I would not trust the words of men. The roman church destroyed anything that did not support their view.

I believe as daniel said, Your son will be in heaven

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Baptizing a baby does not remove origional sin. Any water baptism of any type does not remove a single sin

Ony Baptism of the HS cleanses all sin. By God placing is into the death of Christ.

I had my kids sprinkled. But not to cleanse them, as an open testimony to my church family that I would raise them to know God.

 

[Taken]

Not happiness Taken...
Sarcasim.

I stated that babies are not born with sin
and you stated that it's a lie and that they are.
Which, according to some on these boards who are Catholic,
is what the CC teaches.
So, if you believe babies are born with sin,,,
they you agree with the CC.

No lie.
You've been hanging with bread too long.
An opinion is not a lie just because you don't agree with it.


You just agreed with them...
and I was rather shocked TTYTT.

Oh no.
Psalm 51.
Why are you quoting Psalm 51?
Don't you know what it means?
Could you exegete for us please?

Good grief….
Christians all have common ground Scriptural beliefs….via Scripture…not via one religious organization with another.

Muslims like to eat, you lie to eat….does that make you in agreement with Muslims?

Try to stop wandering off point of the thread topic.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Good grief….
Christians all have common ground Scriptural beliefs….via Scripture…not via one religious organization with another.

Muslims like to eat, you lie to eat….does that make you in agreement with Muslims?

Try to stop wandering off point of the thread topic.

I am dumbfounded at how much power people give to the Roman Catholic cult

 

[GodsGrace]

It seems you’re just as inclined to argue with those who disagree with you as they are with you.

Sometimes I'm downright snarky.
Usually when a member speaks sarcastically or dishonestly.
I really don't care to discuss with these persons but will still reply to their questions.

Good to know.

Why is knowing I'm not Catholic good to know?
Are they infected with something?

No.

Good to hear that.
I agree that SOME of what Catholics teach is correct.
As in all denominations.

Reformed theology, Calvinism,when we have a disagreement and your assumption that I believe babies go to hell.
Thanks.

You stated in a reply to me that you USED to be reformed but have since changed.
So why would I label you as reformed?
What I stated is that ONLY the reformed believe babies are born sinful and in the wrath of God.
That does not label YOU in any way.
It's meant to bring to the attention of everyone that, maybe, if they agree with the reformed they should RETHINK their position since no other denomination agrees with them.

And my assumption as to your belief that babies go to hell.
I've been saying they don't...
and you've been pushing back on that.
You'd only need to reread you posts.
It certainly SEEMS like that's what you're saying.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am dumbfounded at how much power people give to the Roman Catholic cult

To call the Catholic Church a cult is to water down and make insignificant every cult out there.

Because a church teaches something you don't agree with, does not make it a cult.

Historically true:
If it wasn't for the CC,,,,we wouldn't be discussing Christianity on this Board.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am dumbfounded at how much power people give to the Roman Catholic cult

It's like calling Trump a Nazi.

Makes the Nazi's seem like they weren't so bad if Trump is a Nazi.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would not trust the words of men. The roman church destroyed anything that did not support their view.

I believe as daniel said, Your son will be in heaven

Both the writings of Augustine and Pelagius are available.

 

[GodsGrace]

Baptizing a baby does not remove origional sin. Any water baptism of any type does not remove a single sin

Ony Baptism of the HS cleanses all sin. By God placing is into the death of Christ.

I had my kids sprinkled. But not to cleanse them, as an open testimony to my church family that I would raise them to know God.

You had your kids sprinkled but not to cleanse them.
Because they didn't NEED cleansing.
They had committed NO SIN YET.

So, let's say one of these passed away.
What do you suppose God would do with that child?

And this is a different topic.
I don't know why it's being discussed here.

 

[Taken]

I am dumbfounded at how much power people give to the Roman Catholic cult

It is not a big secret, all religious denominations have common ground gleaned from Scriptural beliefs….But it is far fetched to pretend one organization is in “agreement” with an other…since by express “separate denominations”….they have exposed their “disagreements”….

@GodsGrace is off on an irrelevant tangent, that has nothing to do with the thread title.

God bless you.

Gory to God,
Taken

 

[Johann]

I would not trust the words of men. The roman church destroyed anything that did not support their view.

I believe as daniel said, Your son will be in heaven

Here's the reason why I read the ECF--

. The Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229)
Source: The Cathars by Malcolm Barber provides an overview of the Albigensian Crusade and its impact on Cathar texts and beliefs.
Reference: Barber, Malcolm. The Cathars. Routledge, 1995.

2. The Inquisition
Source: The Inquisition: A Historical Perspective by Edward Peters explores the Medieval and Spanish Inquisitions, including their methods of suppressing heretical texts.
Reference: Peters, Edward. The Inquisition: A Historical Perspective. University of California Press, 1990.

3. Destruction of Giordano Bruno’s Works
Source: Giordano Bruno: Philosopher/Heretic by Ingrid D. Rowland examines Bruno’s philosophical and theological challenges to the Church, leading to his execution and the suppression of his works.
Reference: Rowland, Ingrid D. Giordano Bruno: Philosopher/Heretic. University of Chicago Press, 2008.

4. The Index of Forbidden Books
Source: The Index of Prohibited Books by Michael J. Walsh offers a detailed history of the Index Librorum Prohibitorum and its impact on literature and scholarship.
Reference: Walsh, Michael J. The Index of Prohibited Books. University of Notre Dame Press, 1998.

5. Destruction of Gnostic Texts
Source: The Nag Hammadi Scriptures edited by James M. Robinson contains the Gnostic texts discovered in 1945 and provides context for their suppression by early Christians.
Reference: Robinson, James M., ed. The Nag Hammadi Scriptures. HarperOne, 1990.

6. Destruction of Manuscripts During the Reformation
Source: The Dissolution of the Monasteries by David H. Williams details the impact of the English Reformation on monastic libraries and manuscripts.
Reference: Williams, David H. The Dissolution of the Monasteries. History Press, 2008.

7. The Burning of the Library of Alexandria
Source: The Library of Alexandria: A History by Mostafa El-Abbadi explores the destruction of the Library of Alexandria and its loss of ancient knowledge.
Reference: El-Abbadi, Mostafa. The Library of Alexandria: A History. Harvard University Press, 2008.

These sources provide detailed accounts and scholarly analysis of the various actions taken by the Roman Catholic Church that led to the suppression or destruction of texts and ideas.

Incidentally-all early Church Fathers hold to Original Sin-Death.

1 cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive

1Co 15:21

since-in-fact ON-IF-BIND G1894 Conj epeide επειδη Conj Since ​	For for G1063 Conj gar γαρ Conj for ​	through THRU G1223 Prep di δι Prep by ​	Human human G444 nxGenSgm anthropou ανθρωπου NGMS a man [came] ​	The THE G3588 txNomSgm ho o - ​	Death DEATH G2288 nxNomSgm thanatos θανατοσ NNMS death, ​
also AND G2532 Conj kai και Conj also ​	through THRU G1223 Prep di δι Prep by ​	Human human G444 nxGenSgm anthropou ανθρωπου NGMS a man ​	resurrection UP-STANDing G386 nxNomSgf anastasis αναστασισ NNFS resurrection ​	of-dead-ones OF-DEAD-ones G3498 axGenPlm nekron νεκρων AdjGMP of [the] dead. ​

1Co 15:21 For als (since) through an Adam (Man) came mavet (Gn 2:17), also through an Adam (Man, Moshiach) came the Techiyas HaMesim.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die (Gn 3:19), so also in Moshiach all will be made alive.

1Co 15:22

even-as AS-EVEN G5618 Adv hosper ωσπερ Adv For as ​	For for G1063 Conj gar γαρ Conj indeed ​	In IN G1722 Prep en εν Prep in ​	The THE G3588 txDatSgm to τω ArtDMS - ​	Adam ADAM G76 niproper adam αδαμ NDMS Adam ​	All ALL G3956 axNomPlm pantes παντεσ AdjNMP all ​
are-dying ARE-FROM-DYING G599 G5719 viPresAct3Pl apothneskousin αποθνησκουσιν VPIA3P die, ​	Thus thus G3779 Adv houtos ουτωσ Adv so ​	also AND G2532 Conj kai και Conj also ​	In IN G1722 Prep en εν Prep in ​	The THE G3588 txDatSgm to τω ArtDMS - ​	Christ ANOINTED G5547 nxDatSgm christo χριστω NDMS Christ, ​
All ALL G3956 axNomPlm pantes παντεσ AdjNMP all ​	shall-be-being-vivified SHALL-BE-BEING-made-to-LIVE G2227 G5701 viFutPas3Pl zoopoiethesontai ζωοποιηθησονται VFIP3P will be made alive— ​

 

[Johann]

Sometimes I'm downright snarky.
Usually when a member speaks sarcastically or dishonestly.
I really don't care to discuss with these persons but will still reply to their questions.

So I have noticed-

Why is knowing I'm not Catholic good to know?
Are they infected with something?

As here-are you sarcastic?

And my assumption as to your belief that babies go to hell.
I've been saying they don't...
and you've been pushing back on that.
You'd only need to reread you posts.
It certainly SEEMS like that's what you're saying.

I review everything I post. You’re from Italy, and I’m from South Africa—perhaps there’s cognitive dissonance or an issue with reading comprehension at play.
To be crystal clear-I don't believe babies go to hell-you get that?

 

[Johann]

It is not a big secret, all religious denominations have common ground gleaned from Scriptural beliefs….But it is far fetched to pretend one organization is in “agreement” with an other…since by express “separate denominations”….they have exposed their “disagreements”….

@GodsGrace is off on an irrelevant tangent, that has nothing to do with the thread title.

God bless you.

Gory to God,
Taken

Correct-back to OSAS-and I hold to that as biblical truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is not a big secret, all religious denominations have common ground gleaned from Scriptural beliefs….But it is far fetched to pretend one organization is in “agreement” with an other…since by express “separate denominations”….they have exposed their “disagreements”….

@GodsGrace is off on an irrelevant tangent, that has nothing to do with the thread title.

God bless you.

Gory to God,
Taken

Agreed.
It was started with post 894 in reply to post 457 (neither by me)....
but yes, I'm sorry I picked up on it.
It's a serious topic and should not be a side-topic.

 

[GodsGrace]

So I have noticed-

As here-are you sarcastic?

I review everything I post. You’re from Italy, and I’m from South Africa—perhaps there’s cognitive dissonance or an issue with reading comprehension at play.
To be crystal clear-I don't believe babies go to hell-you get that?

I'm American.
Italian by birth.
No reading comprehension problems.

 

[Johann]

Agreed.
It was started with post 894 in reply to post 457 (neither by me)....
but yes, I'm sorry I picked up on it.
It's a serious topic and should not be a side-topic.

So what do you believe? OSAS heretical?--as to babies you can open a thread and you and I can step into the boxing ring and really slog it out.

 

[GodsGrace]

So what do you believe? OSAS heretical?--as to babies you can open a thread and you and I can step into the boxing ring and really slog it out.

I don't slog it out.
You may not have noticed, but I stop arguing after a while.
The only reason it went on for so long with you is because I thought you were asking honest questions.
I'm disappointed at myself - I usually can tell the difference.

Nuff said.