Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[Johann]

I missed this.
Why not?

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Question-is this a Definite Article?

 

[JBO]

I believe you are incorrect-

Romans 8:19-22 (Lexham Bible Translation)
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Greek Terms and Morphology:
Creation (κτίσις, ktisis):

Text: κτίσις (ktisis)
Definition: This Greek term means “creation” or “creature.” It can refer to the act of creation or the created thing itself. In Romans 8, it denotes the created order.
Usage in Romans 8:19-22:
Romans 8:19: "For the anxious longing of the creation (κτίσις) waits eagerly..."
Romans 8:20: "For the creation (κτίσις) was subjected to futility..."
Romans 8:21: "that the creation (κτίσις) itself also will be set free..."
Romans 8:22: "For we know that the whole creation (κτίσις) groans and suffers..."
Grammar and Context:

Noun Form: The term κτίσις (ktisis) is a feminine noun in the nominative case in these passages, used to denote the subject of the sentences. Its form is consistent with referring to an entity or order.

Morphology: The passages use κτίσις in a way that suggests a broad scope, as it is described in contexts that involve the entire created order rather than just humanity.

Interpretation Considerations:
Scope of Creation: The term κτίσις in Romans 8:19-22 is generally understood to encompass the entire created order, not just humanity. This is supported by the context, which speaks of creation's groaning and waiting for liberation, not just in a human context but in a cosmic sense.

Historical Interpretation: Historically, early church fathers and many biblical scholars have interpreted this passage to mean that all creation, including the natural world, is involved in the anticipation of redemption and restoration.

Theological Implications: The idea that creation is eagerly waiting for redemption reflects a theological understanding that all of creation is affected by the fall and is included in the scope of salvation and restoration through Christ.

Supporting Scriptures and Interpretation:
Genesis 1:31: “And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.” This includes the entirety of creation, implying that all creation was originally good and is now subject to the effects of sin and awaiting restoration.

Colossians 1:16-17: “For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible… all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” This indicates that Christ's redemptive work has implications for the entire created order.

2 Peter 3:13: “But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.” This supports the notion that the entire cosmos is involved in the anticipation of redemption.

The Greek term κτίσις (ktisis) in Romans 8:19-22, coupled with the context and supporting scriptures, suggests that the entire creation, not just humanity, is in view.

Personally, I think that your entire analysis of that passage is pure nonsense. And I don't mean that in any derogatory or mean spirited way. But the idea that any part of the brute creation has a conscience being that could engage in the manner you suggest is neither biblical nor scientific. Moreover, not even the animals other that human beings are included there. What is the observable evidence that any except human beings are included in that passage?

 

[Johann]

Personally, I think that your entire analysis of that passage is pure nonsense. And I don't mean that in any derogatory or mean spirited way. But the idea that any part of the brute creation has a conscience being that could engage in the manner you suggest is neither biblical nor scientific. Moreover, not even the animals other that human beings are included there. What is the observable evidence that any except human beings are included in that passage?

Refute me with Scriptures and not your philosophical opinions @JBO or hold your peace.

G2937 - ktisis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G2937 - κτίσις ktísis, ktis'-is; from ; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively):—building, creation, creature, ordinance.

www.blueletterbible.org

Greek Concordance: κτίσεως (ktiseōs) -- 8 Occurrences

 

[JBO]

Refute me with Scriptures and not your philosophical opinions @JBO or hold your peace.

You didn't support it with scripture. You just picked the translation/interpretation of the Greek word κτίσις [ktisis] that you wanted. Why would I need to refute that. It was simply your choice. And a really poor one at that.

How about Mark 16:15?

And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

How much effort should be expended in proclaiming the gospel to that creation you have opted for in Romans 8? How much time have you spent preaching to the rocks, trees, streams, sun, moon and stars?

It might be argued that angels also be considered here, but I reject even that.

I believe that what Paul meant by creation in verses 18-22 was in fact the lost humans, because in verse 23 Paul says, "And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit....", thus adding the redeemed "creation" to the group waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.

 

[Johann]

How much effort should be expended in proclaiming the gospel to that creation you have opted for in Romans 8? How much time have you spent preaching to the rocks, trees, streams, sun, moon and stars?

I reject your foolish argument-did I say we should preach the gospel to the trees, moon and stars? And where do lost humanity yearn since the don't have the first fruits of the Ruach HaKodesh?! Are you a Universalist?

The statement you've provided reflects a common interpretation, but it involves a misunderstanding of the Greek text in Romans 8:18-23. Let me correct the statement with reference to the original Greek.

Corrected Statement:
The word translated as "creation" in Romans 8:18-22 is the Greek word κτίσις (ktisis), which typically refers to all of creation, not just lost humans. The passage contrasts the entire created order with the believers who have received the "firstfruits of the Spirit." In verse 23, Paul writes, "And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the firstfruits of the Spirit..." (Οὐ μόνον δὲ, ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτοὶ τὴν ἀπαρχὴν τοῦ Πνεύματος ἔχοντες). Here, Paul distinguishes between κτίσις (all creation) and "we ourselves" (believers), indicating that creation as a whole, not just humanity, is groaning and awaiting redemption.

Explanation:
Use of κτίσις (Creation):

κτίσις in this context refers to the entirety of creation that was subjected to futility (v. 20). This includes the physical world, not just humanity. The term is broad and encompasses all that was created.
Distinction Between Creation and Believers:

In verse 23, Paul clearly separates "creation" from believers by saying, "And not only the creation, but we ourselves..." This indicates that while creation is groaning, believers who have the Spirit are also experiencing a longing for full redemption. The use of καὶ αὐτοὶ ("but also we ourselves") highlights this distinction.
Meaning in Context:

The broader context of Romans 8:18-22 suggests that Paul is speaking about the entire created order suffering under the curse of sin and longing for the eschatological renewal when the sons of God are revealed. This includes all creation, not just lost humans.
By understanding the Greek text, it becomes clear that Paul is talking about the whole creation, including but not limited to humanity, as groaning for the redemption that will come with the revealing of the sons of God.

 

[Brakelite]

You're not replying to the problem.

Did God put the tree there, with the knowledge of good AND EVIL,
so A and E could choose evil?

HOW does that answer the problem of theodicy?

There was no evil within the tree itself. There was nothing inherently evil in the tree. The evil was in the act of disobedience. The tree: the choice to partake off its fruit, was a test. A&E had a choice. Trust God or trust the serpent. The believed the serpent. And here we are.

 

[Johann]

I'm sorry you write so much Johann.
You don't seem to grasp what I'm saying or you wouldn't.

We all KNOW evil exists.
We DON'T KNOW WHY or WHERE it comes from.

Can you accept that there is no reply?

I believe the Scriptures provide a sufficient and clear answer, and I understand your perspective. However, it seems that the Scripture I’ve already shared may not fully resonate with you or address your concern in the way you’re seeking.

 

[Brakelite]

@GodsGrace you have been asking the same question, where did evil come from, for at least 4 years. My answer then...

If we knew that, we'd start to excuse it. As it stands, we don't know where it came from. There is no adequate explanation for Lucifer's ego, pride and covetousness, therefore we cannot excuse Lucifer his sin... And I prefer it that way.

You have to keep going back.
When you get to the end, you'll find that THERE IS NO ANSWER to the problem of evil.

And you agree with me. I'm wondering why you keep asking the question when you know there's no answer? What are you trying to accomplish?

 

[GodsGrace]

In the Romans 8 passage, the translation/interpretation of the Greek to get the English word "creation" meaning the whole of creation is just wrong. The only "creation" in view is humanity. The rocks, trees, mountains, oceans, animals are not waiting eagerly or at all for anything.

Do you believe nature is perfect?
If not, what's wrong with it?

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace you have been asking the same question, where did evil come from, for at least 4 years. My answer then...





And you agree with me. I'm wondering why you keep asking the question when you know there's no answer? What are you trying to accomplish?

Hey Brakelite
I don't remember you.
But it's been more than 4 years.
And every time people try to answer it with the same old explanations...
which are not explanations at all.

What I'm trying to accomplish is simple.
To make others understand that we don't know why evil exists or why it's here.

Some have never pondered this.
Whenever I get the chance, I like to bring this up.
If you've noticed most on this thread have been trying to explain what evil is,
instead of what I'm asking.

Anyway, nice to see you again.
(too many come and go).

 

[GodsGrace]

I reject your foolish argument-did I say we should preach the gospel to the trees, moon and stars? And where do lost humanity yearn since the don't have the first fruits of the Ruach HaKodesh?! Are you a Universalist?

The statement you've provided reflects a common interpretation, but it involves a misunderstanding of the Greek text in Romans 8:18-23. Let me correct the statement with reference to the original Greek.

Corrected Statement:
The word translated as "creation" in Romans 8:18-22 is the Greek word κτίσις (ktisis), which typically refers to all of creation, not just lost humans. The passage contrasts the entire created order with the believers who have received the "firstfruits of the Spirit." In verse 23, Paul writes, "And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the firstfruits of the Spirit..." (Οὐ μόνον δὲ, ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτοὶ τὴν ἀπαρχὴν τοῦ Πνεύματος ἔχοντες). Here, Paul distinguishes between κτίσις (all creation) and "we ourselves" (believers), indicating that creation as a whole, not just humanity, is groaning and awaiting redemption.

Explanation:
Use of κτίσις (Creation):

κτίσις in this context refers to the entirety of creation that was subjected to futility (v. 20). This includes the physical world, not just humanity. The term is broad and encompasses all that was created.
Distinction Between Creation and Believers:

In verse 23, Paul clearly separates "creation" from believers by saying, "And not only the creation, but we ourselves..." This indicates that while creation is groaning, believers who have the Spirit are also experiencing a longing for full redemption. The use of καὶ αὐτοὶ ("but also we ourselves") highlights this distinction.
Meaning in Context:

The broader context of Romans 8:18-22 suggests that Paul is speaking about the entire created order suffering under the curse of sin and longing for the eschatological renewal when the sons of God are revealed. This includes all creation, not just lost humans.
By understanding the Greek text, it becomes clear that Paul is talking about the whole creation, including but not limited to humanity, as groaning for the redemption that will come with the revealing of the sons of God.

Great Johann.
As usual.

 

[GodsGrace]

You didn't support it with scripture. You just picked the translation/interpretation of the Greek word κτίσις [ktisis] that you wanted. Why would I need to refute that. It was simply your choice. And a really poor one at that.

How about Mark 16:15?

And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

How much effort should be expended in proclaiming the gospel to that creation you have opted for in Romans 8? How much time have you spent preaching to the rocks, trees, streams, sun, moon and stars?

It might be argued that angels also be considered here, but I reject even that.

I believe that what Paul meant by creation in verses 18-22 was in fact the lost humans, because in verse 23 Paul says, "And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit....", thus adding the redeemed "creation" to the group waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.

@Johann gave a comprehensive explanation...something I'm not able to do.

But look at your last sentence:
You wrote:
"BECAUSE IN VERSE 23 PAUL SAYS: AND NOT ONLY THE CREATION, BUT WE OURSELVES, WHO HAVE THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THE SPIRIT..."

Don't you see that Paul is separating THE CREATION from WE OURSELVES....
He's speaking about ALL CREATION and also of US....two different subjects.

Besides which, JOB, this is what is taught in the theology of the Christian Faith.
The sin nature has affected everything....including nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

Personally, I think that your entire analysis of that passage is pure nonsense. And I don't mean that in any derogatory or mean spirited way. But the idea that any part of the brute creation has a conscience being that could engage in the manner you suggest is neither biblical nor scientific. Moreover, not even the animals other that human beings are included there. What is the observable evidence that any except human beings are included in that passage?

Who said nature has a conscience?
Again you mention animals and nature....

My question to you, again, is:

Do animals suffer?
Why do they suffer?

Does nature turn on us?
Why does it do this?

Waiting on a reply.

 

[Johann]

Great Johann.
As usual.

Shalom sorella, buona giornata.

 

[JBO]

I reject your foolish argument-did I say we should preach the gospel to the trees, moon and stars? And where do lost humanity yearn since the don't have the first fruits of the Ruach HaKodesh?! Are you a Universalist?

Let me understand what your point is. You think that the Greek word "ktisis" in Romans 8:18-23 means God's entire creation, the entire universe and everything in it; but, it doesn't include the lost humanity?

 

[JBO]

Do you believe nature is perfect?
If not, what's wrong with it?

I believe nature is exactly as God created it to be.

 

[JBO]

Who said nature has a conscience?
Again you mention animals and nature....

How else are they to "wait with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God"?

 

[Johann]

Let me understand what your point is. You think that the Greek word "ktisis" in Romans 8:18-23 means God's entire creation, the entire universe and everything in it; but, it doesn't include the lost humanity?

I have made my point-no need to repeat myself.

 

[JBO]

I have made my point-no need to repeat myself.

Then I repeat myself. I think that your entire analysis of that passage is pure nonsense.

You have not supported your argument with scripture. You have simply chosen the wrong translation/interpretation of the Greek word "ktisis"

 

[Johann]

Then I repeat myself. I think that your entire analysis of that passage is pure nonsense.

You have not supported your argument with scripture. You have simply chosen the wrong translation/interpretation of the Greek word "ktisis"

5 steps ahead of you and get off my back, stop trolling.