Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[face2face]

@GodsGrace

Also, your infants, who you thought would die on the way, and your children, who as yet do not know good from bad, will go there; I will give them the land and they will possess it Dt 1:39.

Do not know good from bad. This is a figure of speech called a merism (suggesting a whole by referring to its extreme opposites). Other examples are the tree of “the knowledge of good and evil” (GEn 2:9), the boy who knows enough “to reject the wrong and choose the right” (Isa 7:16; 8:4), and those who “cannot tell their right hand from their left” (Jonah 4:11). A young child is characterized by lack of knowledge.

Evil for this Creation is the choice between the two...what it was for the the Angelic beings who must have gone through a testing period would have had the same choice to make.

F2F

 

[GodsGrace]

Evil needs to be voices in a being capable of acting up its own will. This creation has men and women made in the image of the Elohim who can choose evil.

Where such free will does not exist there can be no evil, at all.


For this creation its been plainly shown you.



Whatever is not of God in terms of its thinking is evil.

This is the negative form of good....
evil is the absence of good.

No. I say that evil is real and not the absence of something.
Absence could have just as easily been NEUTRAL instead of evil.

So evil is real.

God used evil to His own advantage. Isaiah 45:7

Right.
Which proves that evil is real.

Maybe you attach notions to Evil which I am not getting from you????

F2F

No. No new notions.
Evil is evil.
We fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities....

All I'm saying is that we CANNOT KNOW where evil originates, why it's here, or anything else about it because the bible teaches about God and that He is good and that He is all-powerful .... so it leaves the problem of evil, which we sometimes try to explain away using one idea or another - but those ideas do not explain evil away.

@Johann gave a good explanation in his post no. 78 of evil and what some propose as a solution.
However, there is no solution there because there cannot be because we're not told what it is.

We are only told the following.
Evil exists.
God is all-good.
God is all-powerful.

This creates a problem.
Theodicy.
To which there is no solution.

 

[GodsGrace]

I call this "one verse theology" eschewing context.

Future Glory
Rom 8:18 For I consider [from the standpoint of faith] that the sufferings of the present life are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us and in us!
Rom 8:19 For [even the whole] creation [all nature] waits eagerly for the children of God to be revealed.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration and futility, not willingly [because of some intentional fault on its part], but by the will of Him who subjected it, in hope [Ecc_1:2]
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will also be freed from its bondage to decay [and gain entrance] into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been moaning together as in the pains of childbirth until now. [Jer_12:4, Jer_12:11]
Rom 8:23 And not only this, but we too, who have the first fruits of the Spirit [a joyful indication of the blessings to come], even we groan inwardly, as we wait eagerly for [the sign of] our adoption as sons--the redemption and transformation of our body [at the resurrection]. [2Co_5:2, 2Co_5:4; Eph_4:30]
Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved [by faith]. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he already sees?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait eagerly for it with patience and composure.
Rom 8:26 In the same way the Spirit [comes to us and] helps us in our weakness. We do not know what prayer to offer or how to offer it as we should, but the Spirit Himself [knows our need and at the right time] intercedes on our behalf with sighs and groanings too deep for words.
Rom 8:27 And He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because the Spirit intercedes [before God] on behalf of God's people in accordance with God's will. [Psa_139:1-2]
Rom 8:28 And we know [with great confidence] that God [who is deeply concerned about us] causes all things to work together [as a plan] for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to His plan and purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified [declared free of the guilt of sin]; and those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity].
AMP

Romans 8:19-22 Greek Analysis
Verse 19:
Greek Text:
“ἡ ἀποκάλυψις τῶν υἱῶν τοῦ θεοῦ.”
Grammar and Morphology:
ἡ ἀποκάλυψις (hē apokalypsis):
Part of Speech: Noun
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Nominative
Translation: “the revealing” or “the revelation”
τῶν υἱῶν (tōn huiōn):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive plural)
Gender: Masculine
Number: Plural
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of the sons”
τοῦ θεοῦ (tou theou):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive singular)
Gender: Masculine
Number: Singular
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of God”
Verse 20:
Greek Text:
“ἡ ἰδιότης τῆς ματαιότητος… ἐλπίδι”
Grammar and Morphology:
ἡ ἰδιότης (hē idiōtis):
Part of Speech: Noun
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Nominative
Translation: “the subjection” or “the futility”
τῆς ματαιότητος (tēs mataiotētos):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive singular)
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of futility” or “of vanity”
ἐλπίδι (elpidi):
Part of Speech: Noun (dative singular)
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Dative
Translation: “in hope”
Verse 21:
Greek Text:
“ἀπολύτρωσις τῆς δόξης τῶν υἱῶν τοῦ θεοῦ”
Grammar and Morphology:
ἀπολύτρωσις (apolytrōsis):
Part of Speech: Noun
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Nominative
Translation: “liberation” or “redemption”
τῆς δόξης (tēs doxēs):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive singular)
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of the glory”
τῶν υἱῶν (tōn huiōn):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive plural)
Gender: Masculine
Number: Plural
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of the sons”
τοῦ θεοῦ (tou theou):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive singular)
Gender: Masculine
Number: Singular
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of God”
Verse 22:
Greek Text:
“ὅτι οἴδαμεν ὅλην τὴν κτίσιν συστενάζει καὶ συγχρημᾷ τῶν ὠδῖν καὶ ἄχρι τοῦ νῦν”
Grammar and Morphology:
ὅτι οἴδαμεν (hoti oidamen):
ὅτι (hoti): Conjunction meaning “that”
οἴδαμεν (oidamen): Verb, first person plural, perfect active indicative of οἶδα (oida), meaning “we know”
ὅλην τὴν κτίσιν (hōlēn tēn ktisin):
ὅλην (hōlēn): Adjective, accusative singular feminine of ὅλος (holos), meaning “whole” or “all”
τὴν κτίσιν (tēn ktisin): Noun, accusative singular feminine of κτίσις (ktisis), meaning “creation”
συστενάζει καὶ συγχρημᾷ (systenazei kai synchremāi):
συστενάζει (systenazei): Verb, third person singular, present active indicative of συστενάζω (systenazō), meaning “groans”
συγχρημᾷ (synchremāi): Verb, third person singular, present active indicative of συγχρημα (synchremā), meaning “suffers”
τῶν ὠδῖν (tōn ōdīn):
τῶν (tōn): Article, genitive plural feminine, meaning “of the”
ὠδῖν (ōdīn): Noun, genitive plural feminine of ὠδίς (ōdis), meaning “pains” or “birth pains”
καὶ ἄχρι τοῦ νῦν (kai achri tou nyn):
καὶ (kai): Conjunction meaning “and”
ἄχρι τοῦ νῦν (achri tou nyn): Phrase meaning “until now”

In Romans 8:19-22, Paul uses vivid imagery and specific grammatical constructions to convey the idea that creation is eagerly waiting for its redemption. The verbs describe ongoing actions (groaning and suffering), while the nouns and adjectives specify the nature of creation’s current state and its hopeful anticipation of future liberation. The grammar and morphology emphasize the intense, ongoing suffering and the deep hope for the ultimate restoration and freedom that will come with the revealing of God’s children and the redemption of creation itself.

Are you agreeing that nature is awaiting its redemption?
From what?

It seems that you agree.
Not sure since you wrote so much.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Also, your infants, who you thought would die on the way, and your children, who as yet do not know good from bad, will go there; I will give them the land and they will possess it Dt 1:39.

Do not know good from bad. This is a figure of speech called a merism (suggesting a whole by referring to its extreme opposites). Other examples are the tree of “the knowledge of good and evil” (GEn 2:9), the boy who knows enough “to reject the wrong and choose the right” (Isa 7:16; 8:4), and those who “cannot tell their right hand from their left” (Jonah 4:11). A young child is characterized by lack of knowledge.

Evil for this Creation is the choice between the two...what it was for the the Angelic beings who must have gone through a testing period would have had the same choice to make.

F2F

Yeah.
Our boats are passing in the night....
But they will not meet.

You keep discussing evil.
I'm discussing the PROBLEM OF EVIL.

You state we should not choose the WRONG.
Fine.
WHERE DID THE WRONG COME FROM?

As I stated....I'm not interested in discussing angels.
One has nothing to do with the other.
Even IF the story of Lucifer as a fallen angel is correct...
it does not explain WHY he rebelled....
WHERE did his desire to rebel come from....

 

[face2face]

This is the negative form of good....
evil is the absence of good.

No. I say that evil is real and not the absence of something.

Paul titles it Carnal thinking - fleshly thinking which results in sin, which is evil.

So you need all the circumstances of this creation to have evil - if this creation didnt exist and there was only God and His Angels there would be no evil.

Absence could have just as easily been NEUTRAL instead of evil.


So evil is real.

Absolutely

Right.
Which proves that evil is real.

Correct

No. No new notions.
Evil is evil.
We fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities....

Now you have difined this Creation which supports the above reply.

All I'm saying is that we CANNOT KNOW where evil originates, why it's here, or anything else about it because the bible teaches about God and that He is good and that He is all-powerful ....

Only that God is the author of good and evil for He uses both at His Will.

so it leaves the problem of evil, which we sometimes try to explain away using one idea or another - but those ideas do not explain evil away.

No it explains that God needs Evil to select His own...otherwise you cannot have free will with evil!

@Johann gave a good explanation in his post no. 78 of evil and what some propose as a solution.
However, there is no solution there because there cannot be because we're not told what it is.

We are only told the following.
Evil exists.
God is all-good.
God is all-powerful.

This creates a problem.
Theodicy.
To which there is no solution.

God bought evil upon Job....

What did it prove?

 

[Johann]

But how does the above explain why evil exists?
How does it explain how it began?
It talks about evil....which we all know about.
But it does not answer WHY evil is present.

The Bible suggests that evil began with humanity's choice to disobey God. The Bible says that God created humans with the ability to choose between good and evil, and when Adam and Eve chose to disobey God by eating from the forbidden tree, they brought evil into the world. The Bible also says that Adam's fall was preceded by the fall of evil angels, led by Satan, who tempted Adam and Eve to be "like God"

But-t
Creation of the Angels:
Job 38:4-7:
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
Explanation: This passage suggests that the angels (referred to as “morning stars” and “sons of God”) were present and rejoicing at the time of the earth’s creation. This implies that the creation of angels predates the creation of humanity.

2. Creation of Lucifer/Satan:
Isaiah 14:12-15:

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.”
Explanation: This passage is traditionally understood to refer to the fall of Lucifer, often identified with Satan. It describes a pre-fall state of Lucifer, indicating that his rebellion and fall occurred before the creation of humanity.

Ezekiel 28:12-17:

“You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering... You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.”
Explanation: This passage describes a figure that many interpret as referring to Lucifer or Satan, noting that this being was in Eden, implying that the figure was already present before humanity's creation.

Satan’s fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12–14 and Ezekiel 28:12–18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, we believe they also reference the spiritual power behind those kings, namely, Satan. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not say when the fall occurred. Jesus, the eternal Son of God, witnessed Satan’s fall, and He mentions it in Luke 10:18: “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” We know that the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4–7). Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1–14). Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred hours, days, or years before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, Scripture does not say.

And the fall of the Nachash-the origin of Ra.

 

[Johann]

Yeah.
Our boats are passing in the night....
But they will not meet.

You keep discussing evil.
I'm discussing the PROBLEM OF EVIL.

You state we should not choose the WRONG.
Fine.
WHERE DID THE WRONG COME FROM?

As I stated....I'm not interested in discussing angels.
One has nothing to do with the other.
Even IF the story of Lucifer as a fallen angel is correct...
it does not explain WHY he rebelled....
WHERE did his desire to rebel come from....

Why do you want answers when the Bible is silent?

 

[RedFan]

Why do you want answers when the Bible is silent?

Doesn't everyone?

 

[Johann]

Doesn't everyone?

Why the need?

 

[RedFan]

Why the need?

Because we are all naturally curious about a great many things.

 

[Johann]

Are you agreeing that nature is awaiting its redemption?
From what?

It seems that you agree.
Not sure since you wrote so much.

Yes, Sorella, I agree with you. I hope you’ve delved into studying Hebrew and Greek rather than just doing word studies. If you’re investing so much time in this, it’s clearly to benefit others. So, here's my question: Based on the Book of Job, did the angels and their leader exist before Adam and Eve?

[https://mikejeshurun.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/field-of-corn.jpg

 

[Johann]

Because we are all naturally curious about a great many things.

When it comes to exploring the deeper mysteries of God's plans, the Bible gives us some clear guidance on where to draw the line:

Deuteronomy 29:29 reminds us that “the secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever.” This means there are aspects of God’s plans that are hidden from us, and we should focus on what God has clearly revealed to guide our lives.

Romans 11:33 says, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” This passage highlights how God’s wisdom and decisions are beyond our full understanding.

Isaiah 55:8-9 points out that “my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” and that “as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways.” It reminds us that God’s ways and thoughts are much higher than ours, and trying to understand them completely may be out of our reach.

Proverbs 25:2 notes that “it is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.” This suggests that while God may choose to keep certain things hidden, it’s wise to seek understanding within the scope of what has been revealed.

1 Corinthians 2:7-10 explains that “God decreed before the ages for our glory” a wisdom that “none of the rulers of this age understood.” It goes on to say that “what no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—these things are revealed through the Spirit. This shows that while some things are hidden, the Holy Spirit reveals what we need to know for our spiritual growth.

So, while God’s ultimate plans and thoughts may be beyond our complete understanding, we’re encouraged to focus on what He has revealed to us. Seeking to understand what’s hidden might not be as helpful as living according to the guidance we’ve been given.

You agree @RedFan? Curiosity killed the cat.

 

[RedFan]

When it comes to exploring the deeper mysteries of God's plans, the Bible gives us some clear guidance on where to draw the line:

Deuteronomy 29:29 reminds us that “the secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever.” This means there are aspects of God’s plans that are hidden from us, and we should focus on what God has clearly revealed to guide our lives.

Romans 11:33 says, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” This passage highlights how God’s wisdom and decisions are beyond our full understanding.

Isaiah 55:8-9 points out that “my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” and that “as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways.” It reminds us that God’s ways and thoughts are much higher than ours, and trying to understand them completely may be out of our reach.

Proverbs 25:2 notes that “it is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.” This suggests that while God may choose to keep certain things hidden, it’s wise to seek understanding within the scope of what has been revealed.

1 Corinthians 2:7-10 explains that “God decreed before the ages for our glory” a wisdom that “none of the rulers of this age understood.” It goes on to say that “what no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—these things are revealed through the Spirit. This shows that while some things are hidden, the Holy Spirit reveals what we need to know for our spiritual growth.

So, while God’s ultimate plans and thoughts may be beyond our complete understanding, we’re encouraged to focus on what He has revealed to us. Seeking to understand what’s hidden might not be as helpful as living according to the guidance we’ve been given.

You agree @RedFan? Curiosity killed the cat.

I have a different view of the Biblical landscape. I don't approach Scripture with the notion that I can't understand everything, so I try until I fail. And when I try, I use tools beyond Scripture itself. Such as, by looking at how the early Church Fathers understood it. And by immersing myself in the cultural aspects of the original audience. And by trying to get my arms around the particular author's goals. Commentaries also help me. I will continue to consult them.

 

[Johann]

I have a different view of the Biblical landscape. I don't approach Scripture with the notion that I can't understand everything, so I try until I fail. And when I try, I use tools beyond Scripture itself. Such as, by looking at how the early Church Fathers understood it. And by immersing myself in the cultural aspects of the original audience. And by trying to get my arms around the particular author's goals. Commentaries also help me. I will continue to consult them.

Absolutely! I take it a step further by looking into ancient Jewish rabbinical writings. Here’s my question: In the Book of Job, were the Nachash and the malachim already present before Adam and Eve?

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul titles it Carnal thinking - fleshly thinking which results in sin, which is evil.

So you need all the circumstances of this creation to have evil - if this creation didnt exist and there was only God and His Angels there would be no evil.

Absolutely

Correct

Now you have difined this Creation which supports the above reply.


Only that God is the author of good and evil for He uses both at His Will.

This is your reply then.
What you posted above:
ONLY THAT GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF GOOD AND EVIL FOR HE USES BOTH AT HIS WILL.,

OK.
Good for you.
You've decided that God created evil.

Except the bible states God IS love and is all-good.
Not God is LOVE.
John says God IS love.

So there's a conflict here.
But if you're satisfied with your solution...
OK.

No it explains that God needs Evil to select His own...otherwise you cannot have free will with evil!

God bought evil upon Job....

What did it prove?

It's a thought.
God needs evil to separate us into His and not His.
It does create conflict, however.

 

[St. SteVen]

I completely disagree with your post on the Logos.

Good. - LOL
Feel free to weigh in on the subject, thanks.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible suggests that evil began with humanity's choice to disobey God. The Bible says that God created humans with the ability to choose between good and evil, and when Adam and Eve chose to disobey God by eating from the forbidden tree, they brought evil into the world. The Bible also says that Adam's fall was preceded by the fall of evil angels, led by Satan, who tempted Adam and Eve to be "like God"

But-t
Creation of the Angels:
Job 38:4-7:
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
Explanation: This passage suggests that the angels (referred to as “morning stars” and “sons of God”) were present and rejoicing at the time of the earth’s creation. This implies that the creation of angels predates the creation of humanity.

2. Creation of Lucifer/Satan:
Isaiah 14:12-15:

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.”
Explanation: This passage is traditionally understood to refer to the fall of Lucifer, often identified with Satan. It describes a pre-fall state of Lucifer, indicating that his rebellion and fall occurred before the creation of humanity.

Ezekiel 28:12-17:

“You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering... You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.”
Explanation: This passage describes a figure that many interpret as referring to Lucifer or Satan, noting that this being was in Eden, implying that the figure was already present before humanity's creation.

Satan’s fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12–14 and Ezekiel 28:12–18. While these two passages are referring specifically to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, we believe they also reference the spiritual power behind those kings, namely, Satan. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not say when the fall occurred. Jesus, the eternal Son of God, witnessed Satan’s fall, and He mentions it in Luke 10:18: “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” We know that the angels were created before the earth (Job 38:4–7). Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1–14). Satan’s fall, therefore, must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred hours, days, or years before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, Scripture does not say.

And the fall of the Nachash-the origin of Ra.

I'm sorry you write so much Johann.
You don't seem to grasp what I'm saying or you wouldn't.

We all KNOW evil exists.
We DON'T KNOW WHY or WHERE it comes from.

Can you accept that there is no reply?

 

[St. SteVen]

2. πίστις in Jude 1:3:
Jude 1:3: "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints."

Here, the term used is πίστις (pistis) without the definite article. This usage suggests a general sense of faith or belief, rather than referring to a specific, defined set of doctrines or teachings.

Thank you.
That is the point I am making with this topic.
Most readers take the definite article (the) provided in the English translation
and declare that it is "THE Faith" being referred to,

[

 

[RedFan]

Absolutely! I take it a step further by looking into ancient Jewish rabbinical writings. Here’s my question: In the Book of Job, were the Nachash and the malachim already present before Adam and Eve?

I haven't ever looked at that question.

 

[Augustin56]

Interesting questions. But keep in mind that Christ identifies as one with His Church.

Acts 9:4, where Jesus addresses Saul (St. Paul by his Hebrew name): "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" Note that Jesus didn't say, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute My Church?" which jhe was doing. But, "...why do you persecute Me?" Persecute Christ's Churcjh and you persecute Christ.

Christ instituted but one Church, in the beginning. Not tens of thousands starting in the 16th century.

If you follow Christ, you follow His Body, the Church.