Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[GodsGrace]

Hey! Take it easy—I’m actually on the same page as you! It’s been quite an intense moment of Italian camaraderie, and wow, you’re really passionate! I’m not a fan of this kind of communication and would much rather have a face-to-face conversation.
You are far to impatient and I have to learn how to copy and paste my Greek Bible verses from e sword to here-maybe @marks can assist me.

Until then-be a good girl and wait.

Gal 3:23 προG4253 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN δεG1161 CONJ ελθεινG2064 V-2AAN τηνG3588 T-ASF πιστινG4102 N-ASF υποG5259 PREP νομονG3551 N-ASM εφρουρουμεθαG5432 V-IPI-1P συγκεκλεισμενοιG4788 V-RPP-NPM ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF μελλουσανG3195 V-PAP-ASF πιστινG4102 N-ASF αποκαλυφθηναιG601 V-APN

Gal 3:23 Before - now came - faith, under the Law we were held in custody, having been locked up until the being about faith to be revealed,

Gal 3:23 - δὲ Before Πρὸ - τοῦ [this] τὴν faith πίστιν came, ἐλθεῖν we were held in custody ἐφρουρούμεθα under ὑπὸ the Law, νόμον locked up συνκλειόμενοι until εἰς - τὴν faith πίστιν should be μέλλουσαν revealed. ἀποκαλυφθῆναι.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept vnder the Law, as vnder a garison, and shut vp vnto that faith, which should afterward be reueiled.

Before faith came (pro tou elthein tēn pistin). “Before the coming (second aorist active infinitive of erchomai, definite event) as to the Faith” (note article, meaning the faith in Gal_3:22 made possible by the historic coming of Christ the Redeemer), the faith in Christ as Saviour (Gal_3:22).
We were kept in ward under the law (huper nomon ephrouroumetha). Imperfect passive of phroureō, to guard (from phrouros, a guard). See note on Act_9:24; note on 2Co_11:32. It was a long progressive imprisonment.
Unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed (eis tēn mellousan pistin apokaluphthēnai). “Unto the faith (Gal_3:22 again) about to be revealed.” Mellō and the first aorist passive infinitive (regular idiom).

Later.
J.

LOL
The above is sufficient.
Just 2 topics I'm willing to discuss at length:
Eternal security and we don't agree.
Reformed faith and we do agree.
Tutti calmi !!
'Night

 

[Johann]

LOL
The above is sufficient.
Just 2 topics I'm willing to discuss at length:
Eternal security and we don't agree.
Reformed faith and we do agree.
Tutti calmi !!
'Night

I don't hold to Reformed Theology-used to, but no longer and as to OSAS I believe what stands written, and don't agree with the Early Church Fathers.

Maybe I should be Catholic?
Sono calmo.

 

[JBO]

I posted the verses JBO.
You could take it or leave it.
In fact, you just repeated it up above.

But the verses don't say what you want them to say. That is the problem with so much of what is wrong within Christendom.

 

[St. SteVen]

What is the difference between Jude 3 in my NASB and the original authors? ... Are you reading the NT in Greek?

Here's what I am looking at. It is used as a study guide, not for reading. Notice the differences between this and the English translation, that took some unfortunate liberties. It doesn't say THE Faith in the original language. (no definite article = the)



[

 

[Johann]

Here's what I am looking at. It is used as a study guide, not for reading. Notice the differences between this and the English translation, that took some unfortunate liberties. It doesn't say THE Faith in the original language. (no definite article = the)

View attachment 49400

[

Incorrect-

Greek (TR):

ἀγαπητοί, πᾶσαν σπουδὴν ποιούμενος γράφειν ὑμῖν περὶ τῆς κοινῆς σωτηρίας, ἀνάγκην ἔσχον γράψαι ὑμῖν παρακαλῶν ἐπαγωνίζεσθαι τῇ ἅπαξ παραδοθείσῃ τοῖς ἁγίοις πίστει.

Grammar and Morphology Breakdown:
ἀγαπητοί (agapētoi) – Adjective, Vocative Plural Masculine: "Beloved."

πᾶσαν (pasan) – Adjective, Accusative Singular Feminine: "All" or "every."

σπουδὴν (spoudēn) – Noun, Accusative Singular Feminine: "Diligence" or "effort."

ποιούμενος (poioumenos) – Participle, Present Middle, Nominative Singular Masculine: "Making" or "doing."

γράφειν (graphein) – Verb, Present Active Infinitive: "To write."

ὑμῖν (hymin) – Pronoun, Dative Plural: "To you."

περὶ (peri) – Preposition: "Concerning" or "about."

τῆς (tēs) – Definite Article, Genitive Singular Feminine: "The" (used with "common salvation").

κοινῆς (koinēs) – Adjective, Genitive Singular Feminine: "Common."

σωτηρίας (sōtērias) – Noun, Genitive Singular Feminine: "Salvation."

ἀνάγκην (anagkēn) – Noun, Accusative Singular Feminine: "Necessity."

ἔσχον (eschon) – Verb, Aorist Active Indicative, 1st Person Singular: "I had" or "I felt."

γράψαι (grapsai) – Verb, Aorist Active Infinitive: "To write."

ὑμῖν (hymin) – Pronoun, Dative Plural: "To you."

παρακαλῶν (parakalōn) – Participle, Present Active, Nominative Singular Masculine: "Encouraging" or "exhorting."

ἐπαγωνίζεσθαι (epagōnizesthai) – Verb, Present Middle Infinitive: "To contend earnestly."

τῇ (tēi) – Definite Article, Dative Singular Feminine: "The" (used with "faith").

ἅπαξ (hapax) – Adverb: "Once" or "once for all."

παραδοθείσῃ (paradotheisēi) – Participle, Aorist Passive, Dative Singular Feminine: "Delivered."

τοῖς (tois) – Definite Article, Dative Plural Masculine: "The" (used with "saints").

ἁγίοις (hagiois) – Adjective, Dative Plural Masculine: "Saints" or "holy ones."

πίστει (pistei) – Noun, Dative Singular Feminine: "Faith."

Definite Articles Highlighted:
τῆς (tēs): "The" (Genitive Singular Feminine)
τῇ (tēi): "The" (Dative Singular Feminine)
τοῖς (tois): "The" (Dative Plural Masculine)

Jude 1:3 (TR) with Articles Highlighted:
"Beloved, making all diligence to write to you concerning the (τῆς) common salvation, I felt it necessary to write to you exhorting to contend earnestly for the (τῇ) faith which was once for all delivered to the (τοῖς) saints."

The definite articles here serve to specify and emphasize "the common salvation," "the faith," and "the saints," indicating their particular and unique significance in this context.

I don't think you are familiar with the Grammar of the Koine Greek text and I do believe you are majoring on minors.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Discussion questions;
1) Is the basis for your salvation a personal decision to follow God, or to follow the church?
2) If your salvation is in "the Faith", who prescribed what that means?

I'm genuinely confused about what you mean by this statement...
should you please clarify what you mean?

Sure.
Faith = Belief that manifests in a personal decision to follow God.
The Faith = A system of belief related to Christianity.

We are saved by grace through faith, not THE Faith.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

The definite articles here serve to specify and emphasize "the common salvation," "the faith," and "the saints," indicating their particular and unique significance in this context.

So you take the English translation to be referring to THE Faith instead of the faith?

[

 

[Johann]

St. SteVen said:
Discussion questions;
1) Is the basis for your salvation a personal decision to follow God, or to follow the church?
2) If your salvation is in "the Faith", who prescribed what that means?

Sure.
Faith = Belief that manifests in a personal decision to follow God.
The Faith = A system of belief related to Christianity.

We are saved by grace through faith, not THE Faith.

[

The phrase "the faith" (Greek: τῇ πίστει or ἡ πίστις) appears multiple times in the Pauline Epistles, often referring to the body of Christian beliefs or the Christian faith as a whole, rather than just individual trust or belief.

Instances of "The Faith" in Pauline Epistles:
Here are the occurrences where "the faith" appears with the definite article in Paul's letters:

Romans 1:5 – "through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of the faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,"

Greek: εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως (eis hypakoēn pisteōs) - "for obedience to the faith"
Romans 1:8 – "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world."

Greek: ἡ πίστις (hē pistis) - "the faith"
Romans 14:1 – "Now accept the one who is weak in the faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions."

Greek: τῇ πίστει (tē pistei) - "the faith"
Romans 16:26 – "but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of the faith;"

Greek: εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως (eis hypakoēn pisteōs) - "for obedience to the faith"
2 Corinthians 13:5 – "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?"

Greek: ἐν τῇ πίστει (en tē pistei) - "in the faith"
Galatians 1:23 – "but only, they kept hearing, 'He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith which he once tried to destroy.'"

Greek: τὴν πίστιν (tēn pistin) - "the faith"
Galatians 3:23 – "But before the faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed."

Greek: τὴν πίστιν (tēn pistin) - "the faith"
Galatians 3:25 – "But now that the faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

Greek: τῆς πίστεως (tēs pisteōs) - "the faith"
Ephesians 4:13 – "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ."

Greek: τῆς πίστεως (tēs pisteōs) - "the faith"
Philippians 1:27 – "Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;"

Greek: τῇ πίστει (tē pistei) - "the faith"
Colossians 1:23 – "if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister."
Greek: τῇ πίστει (tē pistei) - "the faith"
1 Timothy 1:19 – "keeping the faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith."
Greek: τὴν πίστιν (tēn pistin) - "the faith"
1 Timothy 3:9 – "but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience."
Greek: τῆς πίστεως (tēs pisteōs) - "the faith"
1 Timothy 4:1 – "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,"
Greek: τῆς πίστεως (tēs pisteōs) - "the faith"
1 Timothy 6:10 – "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."
Greek: τῆς πίστεως (tēs pisteōs) - "the faith"
1 Timothy 6:21 – "which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you."
Greek: τὴν πίστιν (tēn pistin) - "the faith"
2 Timothy 3:8 – "Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the faith, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith."
Greek: τὴν πίστιν (tēn pistin) - "the faith"
2 Timothy 4:7 – "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;"
Greek: τὴν πίστιν (tēn pistin) - "the faith"
Titus 1:13 – "This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,"
Greek: τῇ πίστει (tē pistei) - "the faith"
Titus 3:15 – "All who are with me greet you. Greet those who love us in the faith. Grace be with you all."
Greek: τῇ πίστει (tē pistei) - "the faith"

In total, the phrase "the faith" with the definite article appears 20 times in the Pauline Epistles. This phrase typically refers to the collective Christian doctrine, the shared beliefs and practices that define the Christian community, as opposed to just individual belief or trust in God.

I don't have a Logos or Accordance Bible Software but here are 20 "The faith" and many more examples I can give you-and faith is a dorean-gift--I really think you are majoring on minors, confusing the issue.

For me it is context and morphology with basic Hebrew and Greek grammar-what is a Vocative, Dative, Genitive, 2Aorist etc. in the context of the said verse and passage.

 

[RedFan]

Absolutely! I take it a step further by looking into ancient Jewish rabbinical writings. Here’s my question: In the Book of Job, were the Nachash and the malachim already present before Adam and Eve?

I need a clarification: what does the Book of Job have to do with this question about who came first, Adam & Eve or Nachash & Malachim?

 

[face2face]

Yeah.
Our boats are passing in the night....
But they will not meet.

You keep discussing evil.
I'm discussing the PROBLEM OF EVIL.

You state we should not choose the WRONG.
Fine.
WHERE DID THE WRONG COME FROM?

As I stated....I'm not interested in discussing angels.
One has nothing to do with the other.
Even IF the story of Lucifer as a fallen angel is correct...
it does not explain WHY he rebelled....
WHERE did his desire to rebel come from....

You are making no sense whatsoever

 

[Johann]

I need a clarification: what does the Book of Job have to do with this question about who came first, Adam & Eve or Nachash & Malachim?

Let's take it right back at Genesis-the Nachash tempted isha Chavah -was he created before, or after our first parents.
I don't have a Logos or Accordance software, so your input would be appreciated.

 

[Johann]

So you take the English translation to be referring to THE Faith instead of the faith?

[

The faith-definitely-from the TR.
I don't understand what you mean by THE/the faith-there is only ONE Definite Article as I have shown you.
J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Let's take it right back at Genesis-the Nachash tempted isha Chavah -was he created before, or after our first parents.
I don't have a Logos or Accordance software, so your input would be appreciated.

Found this below online. --- the Nachash (serpent) tempted isha (wife) Chavah (Eve)

The nachash confused Chavah, "The nachash deceived me, and I ate." (3:13) The nachash possessed the power ( "cunning") to create a conflict between her reasoning (thinking) and her emotion (feeling). Her emotional attraction was powerful enough to overcome her reasoning caused by an external...

--- COMPARE ---

Genesis 3:1 NIV
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made.
He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

[

 

[St. SteVen]

The faith-definitely-from the TR.
I don't understand what you mean by THE/the faith-there is only ONE Definite Article as I have shown you.
J.

Faith like the Canaanite woman in the scripture below.
Obviously she did not have THE Faith, but rather faith, and the faith she had resulted in her daughter being healed.

Matthew 15:28 NIV
Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith!
Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

[

 

[RedFan]

Let's take it right back at Genesis-the Nachash tempted isha Chavah -was he created before, or after our first parents.
I don't have a Logos or Accordance software, so your input would be appreciated.

Not the answer I expected! Job 38:6-7 suggests that the angels (literally, sons of God) were around, and shouting for joy, when the world was being created.

 

[face2face]

@GodsGrace

Evil can only come from moral corruption and where there are no circumstances for evil, evil cannot be present. It's as though you believe evil is a force which has an origin but the evidence is clear that evil can only exist if flesh nature which is made in the image and likeness of God is present. For example; the beasts of the field cannot produce evil because they are amoral.

I think you need to define evil for me and why you think it has a source?

F2F

 

[Johann]

Found this below online. --- the Nachash (serpent) tempted isha (wife) Chavah (Eve)

The nachash confused Chavah, "The nachash deceived me, and I ate." (3:13) The nachash possessed the power ( "cunning") to create a conflict between her reasoning (thinking) and her emotion (feeling). Her emotional attraction was powerful enough to overcome her reasoning caused by an external...

--- COMPARE ---

Genesis 3:1 NIV
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made.
He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

[

Gen 3:1 Now the Nachash was more arum (cunning, crafty, wiley) than any beast of the sadeh which Hashem Elohim had made. And he said unto the isha, Really? Hath Elohim said, Ye shall not eat of kol etz hagan?

I don't have to go online-right here.

 

[Johann]

Matthew 15:28 NIV
Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith!
Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Parsing and Morphology:
Τότε (Tote)

Parsing: Adverb
Meaning: Then, at that time.
ἀποκριθεὶς (apokritheis)

Parsing: Aorist passive participle, nominative singular masculine of ἀποκρίνομαι (apokrinomai)
Meaning: Answering, having answered.
ὁ (ho)

Parsing: Definite article, nominative singular masculine.
Meaning: The (referring to Jesus).
Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous)

Parsing: Nominative singular masculine.
Meaning: Jesus.
εἶπεν (eipen)

Parsing: Aorist active indicative, 3rd person singular of λέγω (legō)
Meaning: He said.
αὐτῇ (autē)

Parsing: Dative singular feminine of αὐτός (autos)
Meaning: To her.
Ὦ (Ō)

Parsing: Interjection.
Meaning: O! (used as a form of address).
γύναι (gynai)

Parsing: Vocative singular feminine of γυνή (gynē)
Meaning: Woman.
μεγάλη (megalē)

Parsing: Adjective, nominative singular feminine of μέγας (megas)
Meaning: Great, large.
σου (sou)

Parsing: Personal pronoun, genitive singular.
Meaning: Your.
ἡ (hē)
Parsing: Definite article, nominative singular feminine.
Meaning: The.
πίστις (pistis)
Parsing: Nominative singular feminine.
Meaning: Faith.
γενηθήτω (genēthētō)
Parsing: Aorist passive imperative, 3rd person singular of γίνομαι (ginomai)
Meaning: Let it be done, may it be done.
σοι (soi)
Parsing: Dative singular.
Meaning: To you.
ὡς (hōs)
Parsing: Conjunction.
Meaning: As, according to.
θέλεις (theleis)
Parsing: Present active indicative, 2nd person singular of θέλω (thelō)
Meaning: You wish, you desire.
Καὶ (Kai)
Parsing: Conjunction.
Meaning: And.
ἰάθη (iathē)
Parsing: Aorist passive indicative, 3rd person singular of ἰάομαι (iaomai)
Meaning: Was healed.
ἡ (hē)
Parsing: Definite article, nominative singular feminine.
Meaning: The.
θυγάτηρ (thygatēr)
Parsing: Nominative singular feminine.
Meaning: Daughter.
αὐτῆς (autēs)
Parsing: Personal pronoun, genitive singular feminine of αὐτός (autos)
Meaning: Of her, her.
ἀπὸ (apo)
Parsing: Preposition with the genitive.
Meaning: From, away from.
τῆς (tēs)
Parsing: Definite article, genitive singular feminine.
Meaning: The.
ὥρας (hōras)
Parsing: Genitive singular feminine of ὥρα (hōra)
Meaning: Hour, moment.
ἐκείνης (ekeinēs)
Parsing: Demonstrative pronoun, genitive singular feminine of ἐκεῖνος (ekeinos)
Meaning: That.
Translation with Emphasis on the Definite Article:
"Then Jesus answered her, 'O woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you desire.' And her daughter was healed from that hour."

Summary:
Definite Articles: The definite articles in this passage emphasize the specific faith of the woman ("your faith"), the particular daughter ("her daughter"), and the specific time ("that hour").
The passage underscores the importance of personal faith and the immediate response to that faith, as seen in the healing of the woman’s daughter.
Mat 15:28 ΤότεG5119|ADV|Then ἀποκριθεὶςG611|G5679|V-AOP-NSM|answering, ὁG3588|T-NSM|- ἸησοῦςG2424|N-NSM-P|Jesus εἶπενG2036|G5627|V-2AAI-3S|said αὐτῇG846|P-DSF|to her, ὮG5599|INJ|O γύναιG1135|N-VSF|woman, μεγάληG3173|A-NSF|great [is] σουG4771|P-2GS|of you ἡG3588|T-NSF|the πίστιςG4102|N-NSF|faith! γενηθήτωG1096|G5676|V-AOM-3S|Be it σοιG4771|P-2DS|to you ὡςG5613|CONJ|as θέλειςG2309|G5719|V-PAI-2S|you desire. καὶG2532|CONJ|And ἰάθηG2390|G5681|V-API-3S|was healed ἡG3588|T-NSF|the θυγάτηρG2364|N-NSF|daughter αὐτῆςG846|P-GSF|of her ἀπὸG575|PREP|from τῆςG3588|T-GSF|the ὥραςG5610|N-GSF|hour ἐκείνηςG1565|D-GSF|that.

Definite Article-he pistis!

Definite article here-as you can see brother
O woman, great is thy faith! He seems surprised, that she, a woman, and a poor Gentile, should express such strong faith in him; calling him Lord, owning him to be the Messiah, worshipping him as God, believing him able to do what could not be done by human art; and though she met with such repulses, and even called a dog, yet still continued importunate with him, believing she should succeed:
​

 

[Johann]

Not the answer I expected! Job 38:6-7 suggests that the angels (literally, sons of God) were around, and shouting for joy, when the world was being created.

So you agree the angels-or sons of God were around BEFORE Adam and Eve?

When the kokhvei boker sang together, and all the Bnei Elohim shouted for joy?
Or who shut up the yam behind doors? Who brought it forth, issuing out of the rekhem (womb)

and all the sons of God shouted for joy; which are usually understood of angels also, so the Targum; who are the sons of God, not by birth, as Christ, nor by adoption, as saints; but by creation, as Adam, Luk_3:38. And because they bear some likeness to God, as holy spirits, and honour and obey him in doing his will; though the character of sons of God, as distinct from the children of men, given to professors of religion, obtained before the times of Job; see Gen_6:2; and who might be said to sing together, and shout for joy, when they met for social worship; see Job_1:6; and especially when any fresh discoveries were made to them of the Messiah, and salvation by him. Thus Abraham, one of these sons of God, saw Christ's day and was glad, and shouted for joy, Joh_8:56. For these words are not necessarily to be restrained to the laying of the foundation and cornerstone of the earth, as our version directs; though indeed the angels then might be present, being created as soon as the heavens were, and with the stars, as Capellus on this place observes; and rejoiced, when the foundations of the earth were laid, on beholding such a display of the power, wisdom, and goodness of God therein; and which may be said of them, in allusion to what is done at the laying of the foundation of any building of note; see Ezr_3:10; for it may be repeated from Job_38:4; "where wast thou when the morning stars", &c. and so may refer to any rejoicing, whether of angels or men, before the times of Job, at which he was not present.

I am really not interested in "Gotcha" or playing a game of chess here-I asked you a question and it would seem you had to look this up furiously and STILL not answering my question!

 

[RedFan]

So you agree the angels-or sons of God were around BEFORE Adam and Eve?

When the kokhvei boker sang together, and all the Bnei Elohim shouted for joy?
Or who shut up the yam behind doors? Who brought it forth, issuing out of the rekhem (womb)

and all the sons of God shouted for joy; which are usually understood of angels also, so the Targum; who are the sons of God, not by birth, as Christ, nor by adoption, as saints; but by creation, as Adam, Luk_3:38. And because they bear some likeness to God, as holy spirits, and honour and obey him in doing his will; though the character of sons of God, as distinct from the children of men, given to professors of religion, obtained before the times of Job; see Gen_6:2; and who might be said to sing together, and shout for joy, when they met for social worship; see Job_1:6; and especially when any fresh discoveries were made to them of the Messiah, and salvation by him. Thus Abraham, one of these sons of God, saw Christ's day and was glad, and shouted for joy, Joh_8:56. For these words are not necessarily to be restrained to the laying of the foundation and cornerstone of the earth, as our version directs; though indeed the angels then might be present, being created as soon as the heavens were, and with the stars, as Capellus on this place observes; and rejoiced, when the foundations of the earth were laid, on beholding such a display of the power, wisdom, and goodness of God therein; and which may be said of them, in allusion to what is done at the laying of the foundation of any building of note; see Ezr_3:10; for it may be repeated from Job_38:4; "where wast thou when the morning stars", &c. and so may refer to any rejoicing, whether of angels or men, before the times of Job, at which he was not present.

I am really not interested in "Gotcha" or playing a game of chess here-I asked you a question and it would seem you had to look this up furiously and STILL not answering my question!

Yes, I agree that they were around before Adam and Eve.

The Book of Jubilees tells us: "For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the malakim of the presence, and the malakim of sanctification, and the malakim [of the spirit of fire and the malakim] of the spirit of the winds, and the malakim of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the malakim of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the malakim of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide (and night), and the light, dawn and day, which He has prepared in the knowledge of His heart."

Does that answer your question sufficiently?

I don't know what you mean by "Gotcha."