Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[JBO]

5 steps ahead of you and get off my back, stop trolling.

Right back atcha, troll.

 

[GodsGrace]

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View attachment 49393

Jud 1:3 αγαπητοιG27 A-VPM πασανG3956 A-ASF σπουδηνG4710 N-ASF ποιουμενοςG4160 V-PMP-NSM γραφεινG1125 V-PAN υμινG4771 P-2DP περιG4012 PREP τηςG3588 T-GSF κοινηςG2839 A-GSF σωτηριαςG4991 N-GSF αναγκηνG318 N-ASF εσχονG2192 V-2AAI-1S γραψαιG1125 V-AAN υμινG4771 P-2DP παρακαλωνG3870 V-PAP-NSM επαγωνιζεσθαιG1864 V-PNN τηG3588 T-DSF απαξG530 ADV παραδοθεισηG3860 V-APP-DSF τοιςG3588 T-DPM αγιοιςG40 A-DPM πιστειG4102 N-DSF

Question-is this a Definite Article?

Sometimes a definite article has to be added to the English in order for the sentence to make any sense.

I checked my Italian bible which is much closer to the Greek and it states for Jude 3
FOR THAT FAITH.....

I'd say that for:
THE FAITH and
THAT FAITH means exactly the same in common language.

It is THE FAITH that the Apostles and Jesus taught.

The following is from the Greek Lexicon on Biblehub:

Jude 1:3 N-DFS
GRK: τοῖς ἁγίοις πίστει
NAS: that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all
KJV: [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once
INT: to the saints faith

source: Strong's Greek: 4102. πίστις (pistis) -- 243 Occurrences

Even though 4102 means FAITH...
Jude 3, makes no sense unless the word THE or THAT is added to the text.

 

[Brakelite]

I believe nature is exactly as God created it to be.

It was before sin. Sin turned nature upside down bringing death and selfishness to all life. The result is all around us. Attribute crime, greed, murder, lust, and all manner of abuse and violence to "sin" would be correct, but to attribute those things to God is akin to blasphemy and a gross misunderstanding of God's character.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe nature is exactly as God created it to be.

That does not reply to my question.
So, basically, you don't know that even nature has been affected by the sin nature.

Well, it has, and every church I've been in contact with (3) teaches this and the bible clearly confirms it.
Again,,,,Romans 8:19-22

Verse 22 THE WHOLE CREATION....everything God created.
Verse 23 BUT ALSO WE OURSELVES.....

Verse 22 is everything
Verse 23 refers specifically to man.

 

[GodsGrace]

How else are they to "wait with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God"?

The above is so silly I refuse to reply to it.

 

[Brakelite]

Hey Brakelite
I don't remember you.
But it's been more than 4 years.
And every time people try to answer it with the same old explanations...
which are not explanations at all.

What I'm trying to accomplish is simple.
To make others understand that we don't know why evil exists or why it's here.

Some have never pondered this.
Whenever I get the chance, I like to bring this up.
If you've noticed most on this thread have been trying to explain what evil is,
instead of what I'm asking.

Anyway, nice to see you again.
(too many come and go).

Why is it here? Because we a humans fell for the lies and deceit of Satan. We believe him, even to this present day, instead of believing God.
And almost the entire world agrees with Satan that the kingdom of God is a system of slavery. That its laws are arbitrary and unjust and unnecessary. Even the church itself attempts to justify the removal of God's laws as being pertinent to Christian life and practise. Interesting isn't it. That even the occult's deepest philosophy says "do what thou wilt", and says their hierarchy would never create a law that says "thou shalt not". Even they claim that the law given on Sinai is intended to enslave mankind. And a large portion of the church agrees. All based on anweevil mischaracterization attribute to God going all the way back to Lucifer's rebellion in heaven.

 

[Super Kal]

I'm a little bit confused by what the OP is saying... is it asking a question about a faith created by a government, or is this more along the lines of denominational thinking?

 

[Johann]

Sometimes a definite article has to be added to the English in order for the sentence to make any sense.

I checked my Italian bible which is much closer to the Greek and it states for Jude 3
FOR THAT FAITH.....

I'd say that for:
THE FAITH and
THAT FAITH means exactly the same in common language.

It is THE FAITH that the Apostles and Jesus taught.

The following is from the Greek Lexicon on Biblehub:

Jude 1:3 N-DFS
GRK: τοῖς ἁγίοις πίστει
NAS: that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all
KJV: [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once
INT: to the saints faith

source: Strong's Greek: 4102. πίστις (pistis) -- 243 Occurrences

Even though 4102 means FAITH...
Jude 3, makes no sense unless the word THE or THAT is added to the text.

I concur--this to me is majoring on minors like ev and eis-in and into.
I like your Italian Bible BUT--

Definite Article in Greek
Noun Specificity:

The definite article specifies a particular noun that is already known to the reader or listener. For example:
ὁ ἀνήρ (ho anēr) – "the man" (a specific man known in the context)
ἡ γυνή (hē gynē) – "the woman" (a specific woman)
Function and Meaning:

In Greek, the definite article can indicate the function of a noun within a sentence, such as subject, object, or complement. For instance:
ὁ λόγος (ho logos) – "the word" (subject)
τὸν λόγον (ton logon) – "the word" (object)
Generic vs. Specific:

The definite article can sometimes refer to a generic or abstract concept, especially in philosophical or theological contexts. For example:
τὸ καλόν (to kalon) – "the good" (as an abstract concept)
Greek Syntax:

Greek often uses the definite article to emphasize or specify a noun in a way that can convey additional meaning or distinction, but this is typically context-dependent.
"That" in Greek
The Greek word for "that" is ἐκεῖνος (ekeinos), which is used to refer to something specific and distant in both space and time.

For example: ἐκεῖνος ὁ ἄνθρωπος (ekeinos ho anthrōpos) – "that man" (referring to a specific man not present)
In certain contexts, the definite article can give a sense of specificity that might be understood as "that" in English, especially when emphasizing a particular item or concept.

While the definite article in Greek primarily serves to denote specificity and is not used to translate directly as "that," it can, in context, imply a sense of definitiveness or particularity. For precise translation or nuanced meanings, context is crucial to determine how the definite article functions in Greek sentences.

God bless.
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why is it here? Because we a humans fell for the lies and deceit of Satan. We believe him, even to this present day, instead of believing God.
And almost the entire world agrees with Satan that the kingdom of God is a system of slavery. That its laws are arbitrary and unjust and unnecessary. Even the church itself attempts to justify the removal of God's laws as being pertinent to Christian life and practise. Interesting isn't it. That even the occult's deepest philosophy says "do what thou wilt", and says their hierarchy would never create a law that says "thou shalt not". Even they claim that the law given on Sinai is intended to enslave mankind. And a large portion of the church agrees. All based on anweevil mischaracterization attribute to God going all the way back to Lucifer's rebellion in heaven.

Brakelite!
After FOUR YEARS and you still don't understand what I'm getting at??!!
Uffa!

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm a little bit confused by what the OP is saying... is it asking a question about a faith created by a government, or is this more along the lines of denominational thinking?

You should tag in the OP.
Only HE can answer.

 

[Johann]

The above is so silly I refuse to reply to it.

He/she/it is on ignore.

 

[Super Kal]

You should tag in the OP.
Only HE can answer.

The only reason I did not mention the OP in my comment is because we've had nine pages and over 170 comments, and I was hoping someone other than the OP could answer that... but unfortunately, if I'm reading you correctly, that particular subject has not even been made clear to everyone... so on that:

Discussion questions;
1) Is the basis for your salvation a personal decision to follow God, or to follow the church?
2) If your salvation is in "the Faith", who prescribed what that means?

I'm genuinely confused about what you mean by this statement... there are many people who claim they are of the faith, yet they build themselves on what the church says faith is, and then there are those, like myself, who do make the basis for their faith, but it's not based in denominational thinking, it's based on simply believing and following Jesus...
should you please clarify what you mean?

 

[GodsGrace]

I concur--this to me is majoring on minors like ev and eis-in and into.
I like your Italian Bible BUT--

Definite Article in Greek
Noun Specificity:

The definite article specifies a particular noun that is already known to the reader or listener. For example:
ὁ ἀνήρ (ho anēr) – "the man" (a specific man known in the context)
ἡ γυνή (hē gynē) – "the woman" (a specific woman)
Function and Meaning:

In Greek, the definite article can indicate the function of a noun within a sentence, such as subject, object, or complement. For instance:
ὁ λόγος (ho logos) – "the word" (subject)
τὸν λόγον (ton logon) – "the word" (object)
Generic vs. Specific:

The definite article can sometimes refer to a generic or abstract concept, especially in philosophical or theological contexts. For example:
τὸ καλόν (to kalon) – "the good" (as an abstract concept)
Greek Syntax:

Greek often uses the definite article to emphasize or specify a noun in a way that can convey additional meaning or distinction, but this is typically context-dependent.
"That" in Greek
The Greek word for "that" is ἐκεῖνος (ekeinos), which is used to refer to something specific and distant in both space and time.

For example: ἐκεῖνος ὁ ἄνθρωπος (ekeinos ho anthrōpos) – "that man" (referring to a specific man not present)
In certain contexts, the definite article can give a sense of specificity that might be understood as "that" in English, especially when emphasizing a particular item or concept.

While the definite article in Greek primarily serves to denote specificity and is not used to translate directly as "that," it can, in context, imply a sense of definitiveness or particularity. For precise translation or nuanced meanings, context is crucial to determine how the definite article functions in Greek sentences.

God bless.
J.

J, I believe I AM using context....this is why it doesn't seem to make sense to me UNLESS we add THE or THAT.

Can't Jude 3 be referring to something specific, which I stated early on.

IOW, Our FAITH is the specific FAITH mentioned in Jude 3.
So, it becomes THE FAITH precisely because it IS specific.

Could we try this?:

BELOVED, WHILE I WAS MAKING EVERY EFFORT TO WRITE YOU ABOUT OUR COMMON SALVATION, I FELT THE NECESSITY TO WRITE TO YOU APPEALING THAT YOU CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS.

(I just realized that after the words EVERY EFFORT TO WRITE there should be the word TO....
Paul is not writing a person...he is writing TO a person)

Anyway....does that make sense to you?

What about Galatians 3:23?
Is it faith or the faith?
I have the faith...

And really, I just can't go on much longer about this.
Your understanding of Galatians 3:23 will be my last question to you about this.

 

[GodsGrace]

He/she/it is on ignore.

LOL
Yes.
It's just as well.

 

[JBO]

It was before sin. Sin turned nature upside down bringing death and selfishness to all life. The result is all around us. Attribute crime, greed, murder, lust, and all manner of abuse and violence to "sin" would be correct, but to attribute those things to God is akin to blasphemy and a gross misunderstanding of God's character.

Where exactly do you read about that.

 

[JBO]

The above is so silly I refuse to reply to it.

Sillier that thinking that the sun or the rattlesnake "waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God"? I don't think there is much that is sillier than that.

 

[GodsGrace]

The only reason I did not mention the OP in my comment is because we've had nine pages and over 170 comments, and I was hoping someone other than the OP could answer that... but unfortunately, if I'm reading you correctly, that particular subject has not even been made clear to everyone... so on that:


I'm genuinely confused about what you mean by this statement... there are many people who claim they are of the faith, yet they build themselves on what the church says faith is, and then there are those, like myself, who do make the basis for their faith, but it's not based in denominational thinking, it's based on simply believing and following Jesus...
should you please clarify what you mean?

I think you've got it.
IOW, does YOUR FAITH save you,,,
or are you saved by your church...or the faith of your church.

There's a prayer in the CC that states something like:
Do not look down at me, a sinner,
but on the FAITH OF YOUR CHURCH....

meaning that it's the CC that saves and not so much a personal faith.

BTW, this is not taught by the CC anymore.
It does teach that it's the true church, but it also teaches personal faith in Jesus.

Not to get off-topic.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sillier that thinking that the sun or the rattlesnake "waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God"? I don't think there is much that is sillier than that.

I posted the verses JBO.
You could take it or leave it.
In fact, you just repeated it up above.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why is it here? Because we a humans fell for the lies and deceit of Satan. We believe him, even to this present day, instead of believing God.

I'm sorry Brakelite
Meant to write a little more but had to go.

And almost the entire world agrees with Satan that the kingdom of God is a system of slavery.

Agreed. This is definitely true today when we're being told that there is no God so we could live how we want to and that it allows us to be more free. Relativism. No absolute morals. Anything goes.
That's how the devil works.
It sounds good....but it brings to bad.

God sounds like it might be some work...
but it brings to good.

And isn't the outcome what counts?
Not according to post-modernism.
Only the moment counts.

That its laws are arbitrary and unjust and unnecessary. Even the church itself attempts to justify the removal of God's laws as being pertinent to Christian life and practise.

Oh yes.
The Episcopal church in England is pretty much finished.
Catholicism in Italy is almost non-existant.
Christianity in the North of Europe has disappeared,
and ditto for the rest of Europe.
BUT, the youth that does flock to the church wants a conservative church that teaches them the truth.
Interesting.

Interesting isn't it. That even the occult's deepest philosophy says "do what thou wilt", and says their hierarchy would never create a law that says "thou shalt not". Even they claim that the law given on Sinai is intended to enslave mankind. And a large portion of the church agrees. All based on anweevil mischaracterization attribute to God going all the way back to Lucifer's rebellion in heaven.

Is the mischaracterization of God the problem....
or just post modernism?
I say the latter.
God is not only mischaracterized...
He's been cancelled !

Pre the modern era ..... even scientists believed in God and His laws.
Modern era......neutral. Tending toward atheism.
post modern era.....God is to be eliminated.

 

[Johann]

J, I believe I AM using context....this is why it doesn't seem to make sense to me UNLESS we add THE or THAT.

Can't Jude 3 be referring to something specific, which I stated early on.

IOW, Our FAITH is the specific FAITH mentioned in Jude 3.
So, it becomes THE FAITH precisely because it IS specific.

Could we try this?:

BELOVED, WHILE I WAS MAKING EVERY EFFORT TO WRITE YOU ABOUT OUR COMMON SALVATION, I FELT THE NECESSITY TO WRITE TO YOU APPEALING THAT YOU CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS.

(I just realized that after the words EVERY EFFORT TO WRITE there should be the word TO....
Paul is not writing a person...he is writing TO a person)

Anyway....does that make sense to you?

What about Galatians 3:23?
Is it faith or the faith?
I have the faith...

And really, I just can't go on much longer about this.
Your understanding of Galatians 3:23 will be my last question to you about this.

Hey! Take it easy—I’m actually on the same page as you! It’s been quite an intense moment of Italian camaraderie, and wow, you’re really passionate! I’m not a fan of this kind of communication and would much rather have a face-to-face conversation.
You are far to impatient and I have to learn how to copy and paste my Greek Bible verses from e sword to here-maybe @marks can assist me.

Until then-be a good girl and wait.

Gal 3:23 προG4253 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN δεG1161 CONJ ελθεινG2064 V-2AAN τηνG3588 T-ASF πιστινG4102 N-ASF υποG5259 PREP νομονG3551 N-ASM εφρουρουμεθαG5432 V-IPI-1P συγκεκλεισμενοιG4788 V-RPP-NPM ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF μελλουσανG3195 V-PAP-ASF πιστινG4102 N-ASF αποκαλυφθηναιG601 V-APN

Gal 3:23 Before - now came - faith, under the Law we were held in custody, having been locked up until the being about faith to be revealed,

Gal 3:23 - δὲ Before Πρὸ - τοῦ [this] τὴν faith πίστιν came, ἐλθεῖν we were held in custody ἐφρουρούμεθα under ὑπὸ the Law, νόμον locked up συνκλειόμενοι until εἰς - τὴν faith πίστιν should be μέλλουσαν revealed. ἀποκαλυφθῆναι.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept vnder the Law, as vnder a garison, and shut vp vnto that faith, which should afterward be reueiled.

Before faith came (pro tou elthein tēn pistin). “Before the coming (second aorist active infinitive of erchomai, definite event) as to the Faith” (note article, meaning the faith in Gal_3:22 made possible by the historic coming of Christ the Redeemer), the faith in Christ as Saviour (Gal_3:22).
We were kept in ward under the law (huper nomon ephrouroumetha). Imperfect passive of phroureō, to guard (from phrouros, a guard). See note on Act_9:24; note on 2Co_11:32. It was a long progressive imprisonment.
Unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed (eis tēn mellousan pistin apokaluphthēnai). “Unto the faith (Gal_3:22 again) about to be revealed.” Mellō and the first aorist passive infinitive (regular idiom).

Later.
J.