face2face
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
- 8,243
- 1,202
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Let's try it this way and you reply as you will to both posts.
God gave humans free will.
We have a choice.
We could choose from good or evil.
WHERE does that evil come from?
Adam introduced evil.
WHERE did that evil come from?
You say that God ALLOWED evil as a means of proper development in the creature.
WHERE did that evil come from?
Did God create it?
Was it wandering about in what was to become the universe?
The above is not normally found in normal arguments.
I think you're using chapgpt again.
Ditto.
Doesn't explain where evil began or how it was created.
No answers have been supplied.
face2face
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
- 8,243
- 1,202
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
Yes...impossible for an angel to sin...if you thought about the reasons why you would see.
Fantastic post, thanks.
I see a problem with the definition of pistis in Jude 1:3 (no definite article/the)
Well worth exploring other scriptures that do contain ἡ πίστις (hē pistis) in Greek.
Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Definition: faith, faithfulness
Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.
[
face, we can't really know what happened before the universe began unless it's clearly stated in scripture.
This is the best theologians have been able to deduce.
Why?
Because man looks for some answer to the problem of evil and so we have the story of Lucifer.
Be it true or not.....satan DOES exist, evil does exist.
The problem remains however.
No matter how we want to understand that satan came into existance.
Same problem as for evil BTW.
Either God created him....which would not fit God's character as portrayed biblically....
or
There are two gods. Also impossible as per the bible.
Certainly the opportunity. In the center of the garden. (orchard)
Surprisingly, A&E had to be deceived by the serpent to eat. (as the story goes)
Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.
I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us) In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1) This tells three things about the Logos. 1) The Logos was from the beginning. 2) The Logos was with...
www.christianityboard.com
[
This begs the question about the source and intent of doctrine. Especially when there is no consensus across Christianity.
Doctrine as a god - bow down before the one you serve...
There is no salvation in doctrine. Only God can save. --- Agree or disagree? --- Doctrolatry (to coin a term) Follow-up to several topics: "My doctrinal opinion is true; you're doctrinal opinion is false." - Got it? The (potential) Treachery of Doctrine > My way, or the highway > What...The "Yeah, but..." school of doctrine - Bible versus Bible
We have all been there. You present your doctrinal position and give biblical support for it. The response is, "Yeah, but..." and then your "opponent" gives their differing doctrinal position with biblical support. So basically, Bible versus Bible. (who will win?) Ironically, the WORDS "Yeah...The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity
What's your view on the final judgement? Here are the three popular biblical views: 1) Damnationism 2) Annihilationism 3) Universalism All three views are biblical, all three views are in DIRECT conflict.What makes a doctrine false?
What makes a doctrine false? Please quote what you would like to respond to. Thanks. 1. You've never heard it before. (knee-jerk defensive response) 2. You have heard of it before, but assume it's false. (haven't looked into it) 3. Doesn't align with your church's doctrine (your church...The (potential) Treachery of Doctrine > My way, or the highway >
...conceit of doctrinal individuality Got it all figured out? - You read the Bible cover-to-cover. Good for you. Kudos. - You read up on doctrine and apologetics. Good. - You arrived at a position on nearly any biblical topic, or doctrine. Check. - Now you are ready to kick some butt. Say...Choice of doctrine is driven by religious preconception - Spirituality is an individualized journey
...such and so, because..." It's easy to identify a religious cult. They meet in the church across the street from your church. And they feel the same way about you. --- Where does this leave us? Choice of doctrine is driven by religious preconception - Spirituality is an individualized journey[
There is no such thing as evil in nature other than that associated with mankind,
It gives the answer to the problem of evil with respect to us humans and also perhaps to that with respect to angels, although we have considerably less understanding given us there.
That is true, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a basic fundamental and unique truth provided. Much of NT after the book of Acts is dealing with the lack of consensus posing issues within the various congregations. It remains for us to decipher the truth.
Also, the lack of consensus does not always, perhaps not even usually, lead to condemnation. Faulty doctrine is not necessarily fatal.
What I use is Scriptures and you don't HAVE to answer should you think you speak to a "program"
The End of Evil and Suffering in Christian Eschatology:
God’s Promise of a New Heaven and New Earth:
Revelation 21:1-4: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away... He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
This passage describes the ultimate future where God will create a new heaven and a new earth, free from the pain and suffering that characterize our current existence.
The Defeat of Evil:
Revelation 20:10: "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Here, we see the final defeat of Satan, the ultimate source of evil, ensuring that evil will no longer have any power or presence in God’s new creation.
The End of Death and Suffering:
1 Corinthians 15:26: "The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
Isaiah 25:8: "He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the Lord has spoken."
These verses affirm that death, often seen as the ultimate consequence of evil, will be completely abolished, along with all the suffering that accompanies it.
Judgment and Justice:
Revelation 20:11-15: This passage describes the Great White Throne Judgment, where God will judge all humanity. Those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire, symbolizing God’s final judgment against evil.
Romans 2:6: "He will render to each one according to his works."
The idea here is that God’s justice will ultimately prevail, and all evil will be dealt with justly and permanently.
The Restoration of All Things:
Acts 3:21: "[Christ] must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets."
This speaks to the restoration of all things—a return to the intended order where evil is no longer present.
These scriptures collectively paint a picture of the Christian hope that evil and suffering will not have the final word. According to the Bible, God will ultimately defeat evil, eradicate suffering, and establish a new, perfect creation where righteousness dwells. This is the essence of the eschatological hope found in Christian theology.
From Jewish sources--
1. The Yetzer Hara (Evil Inclination):
In rabbinic thought, one of the most significant concepts related to the origin of evil is the Yetzer Hara, which literally means "evil inclination." According to this view, God created humans with two inclinations: the Yetzer Hatov (good inclination) and the Yetzer Hara (evil inclination).
The Yetzer Hara is not evil in itself but represents the human capacity for selfish desires and actions that can lead to sin if not controlled by the Yetzer Hatov. This concept appears in the Mishnah and the Talmud.
Example: In Berakhot 61a (Talmud), it is said: "The yetzer hara (evil inclination) is very difficult, and its desire is towards you, but you can rule over it."
**2. The Story of the Fall in the Talmud:
The Talmud expands on the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis, offering deeper insights into the nature of evil and its origins. For example, in Sanhedrin 38b and Avodah Zarah 8a, the serpent’s role in tempting Eve is discussed, and the entry of sin into the world is explored.
The serpent is often seen as an external manifestation of the Yetzer Hara or as a symbol of Satan, representing the external and internal sources of temptation that lead to sin.
**3. The Book of Enoch and the Watchers:
The Book of Enoch, an ancient Jewish text not included in the standard Hebrew Bible but influential in early Jewish and Christian thought, provides a unique perspective on the origin of evil. It tells the story of the Watchers, a group of angels who descended to earth, took human wives, and fathered the Nephilim, a race of giants.
According to Enoch, these angels also taught humanity forbidden knowledge and corrupted the earth, leading to widespread sin and evil. This narrative offers an alternative or complementary view to the Genesis account, suggesting that evil entered the world through both human disobedience and angelic rebellion.
1 Enoch 6-16 discusses the fall of the Watchers and their role in spreading evil on earth.
**4. Philo of Alexandria:
Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE – 50 CE), a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher, provides an allegorical interpretation of the Genesis account. Philo interpreted the serpent as a symbol of sensual pleasure and the material world, which tempts humans away from rational and spiritual pursuits. For Philo, evil arises when the soul is led astray by the body’s desires, which are represented by the serpent.
In "On the Creation" (De Opificio Mundi), Philo discusses how the material world, though created by God, can become a source of evil when it is pursued in excess.
**5. The Midrashim:
The Midrash (early rabbinic commentary on the Bible) contains various reflections on the nature of evil and its origins. For instance, the Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 22:6 reflects on how the Yetzer Hara was initially external to Adam and Eve, represented by the serpent, but after the Fall, it became internalized within human nature.
Another Midrashic teaching suggests that the Yetzer Hara was created for a positive purpose—to challenge humans and make their virtuous acts more meaningful. Without the Yetzer Hara, there would be no struggle, and therefore no merit in choosing good over evil.
Early Jewish writings, including rabbinic literature and other ancient texts, offer diverse perspectives on the origin of evil. These include the concept of the Yetzer Hara (evil inclination) within humans, the allegorical interpretation of the Genesis story, the influence of fallen angels as depicted in the Book of Enoch, and various Midrashic interpretations that explore the nature of temptation and sin. While these writings do not provide a single, unified explanation for the origin of evil, they collectively contribute to a rich and nuanced understanding of how evil is perceived and understood in early Jewish thought.
You're not replying to the problem.Certainly the opportunity. In the center of the garden. (orchard)
Surprisingly, A&E had to be deceived by the serpent to eat. (as the story goes)
Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.
I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us) In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1) This tells three things about the Logos. 1) The Logos was from the beginning. 2) The Logos was with...
[
Did God put the tree there, with the knowledge of good AND EVIL,
so A and E could choose evil?
HOW does that answer the problem of theodicy?
face2face
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
- 8,243
- 1,202
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
It's what they force externally on the Word
You can't have God Holy Divine Spiritual nature as being Evil otherwise you believe there is another god besides Him.
The weight of Scripture against this in insurmountable.
No it doesn't.
God provided the option and the consequence! He even provided an animal with the unique ability to speak the carnal voice.
What you need is an origin story but its not there, I've searched the Word all over and its just not there.
There are many adversaries and none of them are evil angelic beings
You don't know God if you believe He would create an evil being that exists by His Spirit - it means you don't understand the Holiness of God.
Such a compromised position you place yourself in.
F2F
Understanding πίστις (pistis):
Grammar and Morphology:
Part of Speech: πίστις (pistis) is a noun in Greek.
Gender: Feminine.
Number: Singular.
Case: It appears in the nominative case in most instances, which is the case used for the subject of a sentence or clause.
Definition: The term generally means "faith," "trust," or "belief." It represents a firm persuasion or conviction, often in the context of faith in God or in religious teachings.
2. πίστις in Jude 1:3:
Jude 1:3: "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints."
Here, the term used is πίστις (pistis) without the definite article. This usage suggests a general sense of faith or belief, rather than referring to a specific, defined set of doctrines or teachings.
Greek Text: “ἀγαπητοί, ἰδουὼν ἔχον πᾶσα ἡ ἡμῖν κατὰ ἡμῖν ὀλίγην ἠδύθην ἀναγκαία ἰστεῖς τῇ ἐντεῦθεν.”
3. Other Passages Containing ἡ πίστις (hē pistis):
1 Timothy 4:1: “Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith (τῆς πίστεως), by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.”
Grammar and Morphology:
Definite Article: τῆς (tēs) is the definite article in the genitive case, meaning "of the."
Form: πίστεως (pisteōs) is in the genitive singular, denoting possession or association, translated as "of the faith."
2 Timothy 4:7: “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith (τὴν πίστιν).”
Grammar and Morphology:
Definite Article: τὴν (tēn) is the definite article in the accusative case, meaning "the."
Form: πίστιν (pistin) is in the accusative singular, used for the direct object of the verb "kept."
Galatians 1:23: “They only were hearing it said, ‘He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith (τὴν πίστιν) he once tried to destroy.’”
Grammar and Morphology:
Definite Article: τὴν (tēn) is the definite article in the accusative case.
Form: πίστιν (pistin) is in the accusative singular.
4. Observations and Implications:
In Jude 1:3, πίστις (pistis) lacks the definite article, which indicates a more general or abstract sense of faith, rather than a specific set of doctrines.
In passages where the definite article ἡ (hē) is used with πίστις (pistis), it refers to a specific or defined faith, often associated with particular doctrines or the body of Christian teaching.
The use of πίστις (pistis) without the definite article in Jude 1:3 reflects a general call to uphold and contend for faith in a broad sense, rather than a specific doctrinal set. Conversely, passages with the definite article ἡ (hē) imply a more defined concept of faith, often referring to the body of Christian teaching or specific doctrinal content. This distinction highlights the nuanced use of the term across different contexts in the New Testament.
And remember-context is king-Miles Coverdale.
Well JBO, I'm sorry to say you haven't pondered the problem enough.
But that's OK,,,most haven't.
Nature is effected by evil, just as man is.
When Adam sinned evil entered into the world.
Nature is not morally responsible for the evil found in it...
nevertheless it is there.
We can experience a soft breeze....
or a hurricane.
A pleasant wave,
or a tsunami.
A comforting flame,
or a fire that destroys.
Are the above caused by man?
They have been from the beginning...
Even before man roamed the earth.
Romans 8 states that even nature is awaiting to be set free.
Romans 8:19-22
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
I completely disagree with your post on the Logos.Certainly the opportunity. In the center of the garden. (orchard)
Surprisingly, A&E had to be deceived by the serpent to eat. (as the story goes)
Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.
I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us) In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1) This tells three things about the Logos. 1) The Logos was from the beginning. 2) The Logos was with...
[
I agree.
But I'm not talking about angels.
I believe I mentioned this...if not to you then to another member.
This is part of the problem of evil....
one of the options is that there are 2 gods...
which there cannot be.
correct.
No it doesn't what?
Gosh it's difficult to reply to some posters.
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL REMAINS because you have not explained HOW it began or
WHERE it comes from.
If you can,,,then post it and all of Christianity will be grateful to you.
The origin story for what?
Can't keep going back to my post to which you're responding.
I'm not interested in speaking about angels.
I'm addressing the problem of evil.
Why do you ASSUME to know what I believe?
Is this normal on this site?
WHY do you put words in my mouth?
How does that lead to a good conversation?
Did I say that GOD CREATED AN EVIL BEING?
Please show where I posted that....the complete post please.
YOU are in a compromised position because you are UNABLE to explain to anyone on this thread
HOW evil came about.
I'm stating that WE CANNOT KNOW how evil came about.
And we never will.
Very good.
But how does the above explain why evil exists?
How does it explain how it began?
It talks about evil....which we all know about.
But it does not answer WHY evil is present.
face2face
Well-Known Member
- Jun 22, 2015
- 8,243
- 1,202
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Australia
Evil needs to be voices in a being capable of acting up its own will. This creation has men and women made in the image of the Elohim who can choose evil.
Where such free will does not exist there can be no evil, at all.
For this creation its been plainly shown you.
Whatever is not of God in terms of its thinking is evil.
God used evil to His own advantage. Isaiah 45:7
Maybe you attach notions to Evil which I am not getting from you????
F2F
I call this "one verse theology" eschewing context.
Future Glory
Rom 8:18 For I consider [from the standpoint of faith] that the sufferings of the present life are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us and in us!
Rom 8:19 For [even the whole] creation [all nature] waits eagerly for the children of God to be revealed.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration and futility, not willingly [because of some intentional fault on its part], but by the will of Him who subjected it, in hope [Ecc_1:2]
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will also be freed from its bondage to decay [and gain entrance] into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been moaning together as in the pains of childbirth until now. [Jer_12:4, Jer_12:11]
Rom 8:23 And not only this, but we too, who have the first fruits of the Spirit [a joyful indication of the blessings to come], even we groan inwardly, as we wait eagerly for [the sign of] our adoption as sons--the redemption and transformation of our body [at the resurrection]. [2Co_5:2, 2Co_5:4; Eph_4:30]
Rom 8:24 For in this hope we were saved [by faith]. But hope [the object of] which is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he already sees?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait eagerly for it with patience and composure.
Rom 8:26 In the same way the Spirit [comes to us and] helps us in our weakness. We do not know what prayer to offer or how to offer it as we should, but the Spirit Himself [knows our need and at the right time] intercedes on our behalf with sighs and groanings too deep for words.
Rom 8:27 And He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because the Spirit intercedes [before God] on behalf of God's people in accordance with God's will. [Psa_139:1-2]
Rom 8:28 And we know [with great confidence] that God [who is deeply concerned about us] causes all things to work together [as a plan] for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to His plan and purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom He predestined, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified [declared free of the guilt of sin]; and those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity].
AMP
Romans 8:19-22 Greek Analysis
Verse 19:
Greek Text:
“ἡ ἀποκάλυψις τῶν υἱῶν τοῦ θεοῦ.”
Grammar and Morphology:
ἡ ἀποκάλυψις (hē apokalypsis):
Part of Speech: Noun
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Nominative
Translation: “the revealing” or “the revelation”
τῶν υἱῶν (tōn huiōn):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive plural)
Gender: Masculine
Number: Plural
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of the sons”
τοῦ θεοῦ (tou theou):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive singular)
Gender: Masculine
Number: Singular
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of God”
Verse 20:
Greek Text:
“ἡ ἰδιότης τῆς ματαιότητος… ἐλπίδι”
Grammar and Morphology:
ἡ ἰδιότης (hē idiōtis):
Part of Speech: Noun
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Nominative
Translation: “the subjection” or “the futility”
τῆς ματαιότητος (tēs mataiotētos):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive singular)
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of futility” or “of vanity”
ἐλπίδι (elpidi):
Part of Speech: Noun (dative singular)
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Dative
Translation: “in hope”
Verse 21:
Greek Text:
“ἀπολύτρωσις τῆς δόξης τῶν υἱῶν τοῦ θεοῦ”
Grammar and Morphology:
ἀπολύτρωσις (apolytrōsis):
Part of Speech: Noun
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Nominative
Translation: “liberation” or “redemption”
τῆς δόξης (tēs doxēs):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive singular)
Gender: Feminine
Number: Singular
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of the glory”
τῶν υἱῶν (tōn huiōn):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive plural)
Gender: Masculine
Number: Plural
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of the sons”
τοῦ θεοῦ (tou theou):
Part of Speech: Noun (genitive singular)
Gender: Masculine
Number: Singular
Case: Genitive
Translation: “of God”
Verse 22:
Greek Text:
“ὅτι οἴδαμεν ὅλην τὴν κτίσιν συστενάζει καὶ συγχρημᾷ τῶν ὠδῖν καὶ ἄχρι τοῦ νῦν”
Grammar and Morphology:
ὅτι οἴδαμεν (hoti oidamen):
ὅτι (hoti): Conjunction meaning “that”
οἴδαμεν (oidamen): Verb, first person plural, perfect active indicative of οἶδα (oida), meaning “we know”
ὅλην τὴν κτίσιν (hōlēn tēn ktisin):
ὅλην (hōlēn): Adjective, accusative singular feminine of ὅλος (holos), meaning “whole” or “all”
τὴν κτίσιν (tēn ktisin): Noun, accusative singular feminine of κτίσις (ktisis), meaning “creation”
συστενάζει καὶ συγχρημᾷ (systenazei kai synchremāi):
συστενάζει (systenazei): Verb, third person singular, present active indicative of συστενάζω (systenazō), meaning “groans”
συγχρημᾷ (synchremāi): Verb, third person singular, present active indicative of συγχρημα (synchremā), meaning “suffers”
τῶν ὠδῖν (tōn ōdīn):
τῶν (tōn): Article, genitive plural feminine, meaning “of the”
ὠδῖν (ōdīn): Noun, genitive plural feminine of ὠδίς (ōdis), meaning “pains” or “birth pains”
καὶ ἄχρι τοῦ νῦν (kai achri tou nyn):
καὶ (kai): Conjunction meaning “and”
ἄχρι τοῦ νῦν (achri tou nyn): Phrase meaning “until now”
In Romans 8:19-22, Paul uses vivid imagery and specific grammatical constructions to convey the idea that creation is eagerly waiting for its redemption. The verbs describe ongoing actions (groaning and suffering), while the nouns and adjectives specify the nature of creation’s current state and its hopeful anticipation of future liberation. The grammar and morphology emphasize the intense, ongoing suffering and the deep hope for the ultimate restoration and freedom that will come with the revealing of God’s children and the redemption of creation itself.
Similar threads
