There is only one true church

[amigo de christo]

It is also an organism and not an organization.

It is comprised of all born again believers in all sects of Christendom.

the problem within Christendom
is it has comprOmised . and it sure love to say all faiths and even the false religoins
have lovers of GOD within in order to merge them as one .
But what i see in most places dont comprise of christain doctrine . IT COMPROMISED IT .

 

[MatthewG]

If you believe what Christians have believed and have taught in all generations, then you're built upon the Apostles. But if you're particular faith..what you think is so important to say, is something that only began to be said in 500 AD or in 1000 AD or in 1500 AD or in 1959 AD..whatever you're in, as good as it might be, is inadequate and is something less than the church of Christ. It isn't Apostolic. There is one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and that church has been teaching the gospel and preaching the Christian faith for 2000 years. It is evangelical, but not Protestant. It is Orthodox, but not Jewish. It is Catholic, but not Roman. It is not non-denominational, it is pre-denominational. It has been believed, taught, preserved, defended, and died for. It is the Faith that has established the universe. Proclaiming the Truth since 34 AD. The Church began on the day of Pentecost after Christ's resurrection.

The end of the age most certainly started on the day of Pentecost for sure… the last days had been brought among them! The only true church, if you want to call it that would be those who are part of the Kingdom of Heaven, by faith in the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ… but it’s a spiritual family of believers in heaven, and spiritual family of believers on the earth. Where the faithful walk by the spirit and by faithfulness.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

the problem within Christendom
is it has comprOmised . and it sure love to say all faiths and even the false religoins
have lovers of GOD within in order to merge them as one .
But what i see in most places dont comprise of christain doctrine . IT COMPROMISED IT .

We are living in the last days and we know the external form of the church will grow worse and worse.

The church has always grappled with sin both from without and within., As long as people fill the church we will struggle.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The end of the age most certainly started on the day of Pentecost for sure… the last days had been brought among them!

Actually pentecost started teh last era.

The last days began on May 14 1948 when Israel was born in a day as was prophesied!

 

[MatthewG]

Actually pentecost started teh last era.

The last days began on May 14 1948 when Israel was born in a day as was prophesied!

I have heard the chapter read today. Peter’s words to the generation couldn’t be more clearer.

However you can take that verse from that book can claim Peter is talking to you today, if you like.

I understand people reason and try to understand things and sometimes we don’t change our minds and that is okay.

However I believe you’re mistaken to claim “end times” for today however I love you even if you disagree with me, for saying so.

If I knock your teeth out for seeing something that maybe I don’t, that’s not Christian like at all. People like to do that a lot to other believers. Punch them in the mouth, head, lips, and see blood pour out.

confused

All because someone believes something they don’t or have a different perspective.

Blessing.

 

[amigo de christo]

We are living in the last days and we know the external form of the church will grow worse and worse.

The church has always grappled with sin both from without and within., As long as people fill the church we will struggle.

True . but what happens when said leaders who were to teach said people no longer teach and instruct said people
up in the way . THEY LEAVEN TO THE FULL is what happens .
YES , even paul , even john , james and others had folks in error within said churches .
BUT THOSE MEN CORRECTED
THESE DO NOT and thus ITS GOTTEN MUCH WORSE and VERY FAST .
WHEN the BLIND lead , ITS ALL GOING DOWN .
WHEN TRUE MEN Lead , YES of course the church will have errors within it
BUT THE TRUE MEN CORRECT SAID ERRORS and said SINS . tHEY DONT Just
overlook them and try and gain numbers . WE IN TOTAL TROUBLE now .
THe leaven was left uncorrected by seeker friendly means and BOY HAS IT LEAVENED UP THE HOUSE .

 

[MatthewG]

A good church model is the one that doesn’t make business. But a true church doesn’t exist. (Except for the Heavenly One, being part of it through adoption by the Father.) You’re better off starting school, for learning of the biblical texts. Studying from chapter 1 to 2 learning and comprehension with helping others grow. That will help people increase their faith.

 

[PinSeeker]

...Jesus knocked him off his horse...

<chuckles>

..."...why do you persecute Me?" Jesus identifies as one with His Church!

Well, we are the body of Christ, yes, all those who are in Christ... And, yes, "(b)lessed are (we) who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for (ours) is the kingdom of heaven," and "(b)lessed are (we) when others revile (us) and persecute (us) and utter all kinds of evil against (us) falsely on (His, Jesus's) account. (We can) rejoice and be glad, for (our) reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before (us)." [Matthew 5:10-11]

Persecute Christ's Church by lying and untruths, and you're doing the same to Christ.

Weeeellllll... In Jesus's graphic portrayal of the final Judgment in Matthew 25, many will think they served Christ but will be very much mistaken, and... this is such a frightening thought... find out that Christ never knew (which goes far beyond a mere cognitive sense) them. But, thank the Lord, far be it from me to persecute or even disparage in any way Christ's Church, of which I have been made a member, being given to Christ by the Father as I have been. Given to Christ... by His mercy and grace... and sharing in this first resurrection... predestined to be conformed to His image... children of God, and if children, then heirs ~ heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ. What a blessed thought; hopefully, the same is true of you. As Jesus says at the outset of His sermon on the Mount of Olives:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on My account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you" (Matthew 5:3-11).​

This is not restricted or limited to any denomination. <smile>

Christ founded a visible Church with a visible heirarchy to run it, giving it His godly authority here on earth.

No, but invisible, in the sense that we don't know who all is in Christ, and therefore in the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1). Not yet, but we will when Christ returns, when He separates people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and places the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left (Matthew 25).

It has existed the entire time since Christ...

Ah, since Adam, subsequent to the Fall, documented by Moses in Genesis 3.

...it accounts for the majority of Christians in all of Christianity.

The majority? No, all. We who are in Christ, for whom there is therefore now no condemnation (Romans 8:1), are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28)... reconciled to God in one body through the cross... through Christ we have access in one Spirit to the Father, and so then are no longer strangers and aliens but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in Whom we are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit (Ephesians 2). This is Christ's Church, the ones who confess, as Peter did in Matthew 16, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, against which the gates of hell will not prevail (Matthew 16). For, as John says, everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world... this is the victory that has overcome the world ~ our faith (1 John 5:4). And then John immediately asks the rhetorical question, "Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:5). Jesus Himself is the Rock of our salvation...

• "...my God, my Rock, in Whom I take refuge, my Shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge, my Savior; You save me from violence" (2 Samuel 22:3).
• “The Lord lives, and blessed be my Rock, and exalted be my God, the Rock of my salvation" (2 Samuel 22:47),
• "The Lord is my Rock and my Fortress and my Deliverer, my God, my Rock, in Whom I take refuge, my Shield, and the Horn of my salvation, my Stronghold" (Psalm 18:2).
• "The Lord lives, and blessed be my Rock, and exalted be the God of my salvation..." (Psalm 18:46).
• "He shall cry to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, and the Rock of my salvation’" (Psalm 89:26).
• "as it is written, 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a Rock of offense; and whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame" (Paul, in Romans 9:33, in direct reference to Isaiah 8:14, 28:16).
• "...all drank the same spiritual drink... they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ" (1 Corinthians 10:4)
• "As you come to Him, a living Stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.' So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, 'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,' and 'A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.' They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy" (Peter, 1 Peter 2:4-10, referring to the same Scriptures, Isaiah 8:14 and Isaiah 28:16, as Paul).

...and Peter's confession in Matthew 16:16, that He is "...the Christ, the Son of the living God" and that Jesus then, pronouncing Peter "blessed" because "flesh and blood (had) not revealed this to (Peter), but (His, Christ's) Father Who is in heaven," is the rock (little 'r'). The Person ~ Jesus of course ~ is the Rock of our salvation, and the confession that He is Who He is ~ God in the flesh, of course ~ is the rock on which He is building His Church, which the gates of hell will not prevail against (Matthew 16:13-19). As Jesus says in Matthew 7:24-26...

"Everyone then who hears these words of..." (His) "...and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock..." ~ we build our house on this confession, that Jesus is the Christ ~ and this house will "...not fall, because it..." will have been "...founded..." or based, as true confessions of the heart are, "...on the Rock..." (vv.24-25)​

But He goes on to say that:

"...everyone who hears these words of (His) and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand..." ~ built his house on a false confession, even the confession that "there is no God," which is the confession of the heart of the fool (Psalm 14:1, 53:1) ~ and, when the winds come, "great (will be) the fall of" that house (vv.26-27). ​

The latter confession (vv.26-27) is sand, even sinking sand, on which there will be no standing; the ones who stand on it will be those who are on Christ's left at the final Judgment, and they will not stand in the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1).

So...

My hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus' blood and righteousness​

I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name!​

​

CHORUS: On Christ the solid rock I stand, All other ground is sinking sand, All other ground is sinking sand!​

​

When darkness veils His lovely face, I'll rest on His unchanging grace​

In every high and stormy day, my anchor holds within the veil!​

​

CHORUS​

​

His oath, His covenant, His blood support me in the whelming flood​

When all around my soul gives way He then is all my hope and stay!​

​

CHORUS​

​

When He shall come with trumpet sound, oh, may I then in Him be found​

Dressed in His righteousness alone, faultless to stand before the throne!​

​

CHORUS​

"On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand"​

lyrics: Edward Mote, 1797-1874​

original music: William Batchelder Bradbury (1816-1868)​

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Augustin56]

No, but invisible, in the sense that we don't know who all is in Christ, and therefore in the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1). Not yet, but we will when Christ returns, when He separates people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and places the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left (Matthew 25).

​

So, your take is that the Church founded by Christ is an "invisible" Church, right?

Wrong. Christ's Church has to be a visible, authoritative body that Christ declared, addressing its first earthly leader, “I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 16:19). What good would it have done to bestow the keys upon a Church so formless as to defy any effort to identify it? Then, too, Christ speaks of a visible Church when he recommends recourse to it for settling disputes among his followers: “Refer it to the Church” (Matt. 18:17). How would he know where to go if the Church were invisible? He tells his followers, who make us the Church on earth, that they are “the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house” (Matt. 5:14-15; see also Luke 8:16,11:33).

The visibility of the Church is no light matter. It underlies the ultimate source of Christian belief: Church or Bible? Its importance surpasses that of other divisive issues, such as the veneration of saints or confession.

The question of Church visibility arose (often the subject was deliberately introduced) Christ’s Church does have an invisible quality in that it is his Mystical Body on earth. But to understand the Church as having no visibility at all – and, as a consequence, no authority at all—conjures up a Church as tenuous as feathers in the wind. It’s almost as if Jesus, in setting up his Church, didn’t quite know what he was doing.

A point which some controversialists appear to overlook is that only a visible, authoritative Church could have set in place the pillars that would support Christian belief and practice through the ages. To those who cry “Prove it!” here are a few examples:

1. Codification of the Bible. The Bible did not codify itself, did not specify which books, among many, were to be seen as inspired. A visible, authoritative body, comprised of bishops, decided the content of the canon.

2. The worldwide councils. Christianity’s doctrinal parameters have been charted by the ecumenical councils, now numbering 21, each conducted under the authority of the visible, universal Church. Not once in those 21 sessions did an “invisible” group of bishops meet and deliberate. 3. The Lord’s day. The Christian Sunday replaced the Saturday sabbath of the Old Testament. The visible Church made this change.

4. Christmas and Easter. The Bible nowhere mentions the word “Christmas” or the date for Christmas. The celebration of Christmas on December 25 was a decision of the Church. (The feast didn’t arise all by itself.) Much the same can be said for Easter as a feast separate from the other Sundays which commemorate the Resurrection. It was a visible Church, headed by a definitely locatable pope, that settled the dates of observance for the two key feasts.

5. The calendar. It is Christ’s visible Church, its reach extending into the secular realm, which has given us the Gregorian calendar, named after Pope Gregory XIII.

 

[PinSeeker]

So, your take is that the Church founded by Christ is an "invisible" Church, right?

In the sense that I said before, but I think not in the wooden sense you seem to mean it. A question for you, Augustin ~ rhetorical in nature, really: Do you, Augustin, know, at any time past, present, or future (before your death or until the return of Christ, whichever comes first) who all God's elect are? You can be sure of yourself, if you have this faith (assurance, conviction [Hebrews 11:1]) given to you by God, but can you really be sure of anyone else, even the those with whom you are closely acquainted? Or put another way, can you see peoples' hearts, as God does (1 Samuel 16:7)?

"Controversialists..." LOL! <sigh>

Good day, Augustin. Go well Grace and peace to you, friend.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

In the sense that I said before, but I think not in the wooden sense you seem to mean it. A question for you, Augustin ~ rhetorical in nature, really: Do you, Augustin, know, at any time past, present, or future (before your death or until the return of Christ, whichever comes first) who all God's elect are? You can be sure of yourself, if you have this faith (assurance, conviction [Hebrews 11:1]) given to you by God, but can you really be sure of anyone else, even the those with whom you are closely acquainted? Or put another way, can you see peoples' hearts, as God does (1 Samuel 16:7)?

"Controversialists..." LOL! <sigh>

Good day, Augustin. Go well Grace and peace to you, friend.

Hello, my friend. Find any pins lately?
Seriously, can you be 100% infallibly certain that "on this Rock" , Jesus was pointing to Himself? But changed Simon bar Jonah to ROCK because it looks cool??
Also, binding and loosing are visible acts. It is a rabbinical term that everyone at the time, knew what it meant. How can an invisible church bind and loose anything?

I'm tired. Say a quick prayer for me that I get a good nights sleep. Insomnia is a cross I must bear.

 

[PinSeeker]

Hello, my friend. Find any pins lately?

"Find any pins..." Hm. Well that one kind of went right past me, I guess... <smile>

Seriously, can you be 100% infallibly certain that "on this Rock" , Jesus was pointing to Himself?

I can be 100% certain ~ and am ~ that Jesus was not pointing to Himself. You misread my post, I think...

But changed Simon bar Jonah to ROCK because it looks cool??

Didn't do that... <smile> ...nor would I... <smile> I'm... not even sure this even makes sense. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your reference here, but certainly, Jesus did not say, “Blessed are you, rock"... or "Rock"...! Maybe you're referring to "on this rock" in verse 18, and in that case, sort of reiterating what I said immediately above, the antecedent of "this rock" is really neither Jesus Himself nor Peter himself.

Also, binding and loosing are visible acts.

They can be, but don't have to be; it depends on context...

It is a rabbinical term that everyone at the time, knew what it meant.

Sure.

How can an invisible church bind and loose anything?

Hmmm... interesting question. I'll just say this, regarding this "binding" and "loosing"... These are wide-ranging terms, or, at least, wider-ranging than ~ or as wooden as ~ you seem to think. Two of the concepts they apply to are a) Christian discipline, and b) forgiveness of sin. To those concepts:

a) Christian discipline: Peter is given authority to exercise discipline concerning right and wrong conduct for those in the kingdom by Jesus here in Matthew 16, but this is an authority that is not exclusive to Peter but is extended to the church as a whole, as in Matthew 18:18, where He tells all His disciples, and thus us by extension, "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

b) Forgiveness of sin. We see the same thing again, but applied differently, in John 20:23, where Jesus again tells all His disciples and again us by extension, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld." So, in so doing, Jesus delegates authority to human leaders in the church who are called to govern His church on earth, under His ultimate authority, through the application of His Word. Now, of course, only God can truly forgive sin, but certainly we can personally forgive each other (and must), and with regard to church authority certainly must also personally forgive and corporately pronounce God's forgiveness. To the latter, church authorities can pronounce forgiveness upon church congregants ~ after corporate confession of sin (which should take place in every worship service), God's forgiveness, in the context of John's statement that, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). This is what Peter himself was exhorting his hearers to in Acts 2:38 when he said, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit," and again in Acts 10:43 when he said, "everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name," and Paul in Acts 13:38, where he said, "Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this Man (He whom God raised up, Jesus) forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by Him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses," and Paul again in Acts 26, where he was telling of his conversion (documented in Acts 9, of course), when he quoted Jesus's directive to Paul, "...to whom I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Me."

I'm tired.

I understand.

Say a quick prayer for me that I get a good night's sleep. Insomnia is a cross I must bear.

Ah. Will do! So sorry to hear that. Really.

Hey, do you go to bed and get up at the same times every night and day? Even if you don't actually sleep for stretches... It may help if you get a little, um, militaristic, about that. As much as you can, anyway... Not an overnight fix, but over a bit of time maybe you can force your body into a better circadian rhythm; I had to do that after some medical troubles I had... And exercise more regularly, if you don't... And maybe the biggest thing (it was for me, anyway) is to not worry about getting sleep, which of course is easier said than done, but worry can do a lot of bad things to a person...

Just preach the Gospel to yourself, man. Rest in that. Remind yourself that God is for you (Romans 8:31) and that "...we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:37-39).

Grace and peace to you, JT!

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

"Find any pins..." Hm. Well that one kind of went right past me, I guess... <smile>


I can be 100% certain ~ and am ~ that Jesus was not pointing to Himself. You misread my post, I think...

Not really. My replies to you are an indirect reply to the readers.

Didn't do that... <smile> ...nor would I... <smile> I'm... not even sure this even makes sense. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your reference here, but certainly, Jesus did not say, “Blessed are you, rock"... or "Rock"...! Maybe you're referring to "on this rock" in verse 18, and in that case, sort of reiterating what I said immediately above, the antecedent of "this rock" is really neither Jesus Himself nor Peter himself.

How can that be?
Matt. 16:17 – to further demonstrate that Jesus was speaking Aramaic, Jesus says Simon “Bar-Jona.” The use of “Bar-Jona” proves that Jesus was speaking Aramaic. In Aramaic, “Bar” means son, and “Jonah” means John or dove (Holy Spirit). See Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34 which give another example of Jesus speaking Aramaic as He utters in rabbinical fashion the first verse of Psalm 22 declaring that He is the Christ, the Messiah. This shows that Jesus was indeed speaking Aramaic, as the Jewish people did at that time.

Matt. 16:18 – also, in quoting “on this rock,” the Scriptures use the Greek construction “tautee tee” which means on “this” rock; on “this same” rock; or on “this very” rock. “Tautee tee” is a demonstrative construction in Greek, pointing to Peter, the subject of the sentence (and not his confession of faith as some non-Catholics argue) as the very rock on which Jesus builds His Church. The demonstrative (“tautee”) generally refers to its closest antecedent (“Petros”). Also, there is no place in Scripture where “faith” is equated with “rock.”

Matt. 16:13 – also, from a geographical perspective, Jesus renames Simon to ROCK in Caesarea Philippi near a massive rock formation on which Herod built a temple to Caesar. Jesus chose this setting to further emphasize that Peter was indeed the rock on which the Church would be built.

I can't member where I read it, but "Caiaphas" translates to "grain of sand". He was evil and plotted Christ's death, yet he prophesied infallibly. Go figure.

They can be, but don't have to be; it depends on context...

Sure.


Hmmm... interesting question. I'll just say this, regarding this "binding" and "loosing"... These are wide-ranging terms, or, at least, wider-ranging than ~ or as wooden as ~ you seem to think. Two of the concepts they apply to are a) Christian discipline, and b) forgiveness of sin. To those concepts:

The context of binding and loosing can be found in any Jewish source. I'd post one but I am too lazy :)

a) Christian discipline: Peter is given authority to exercise discipline concerning right and wrong conduct for those in the kingdom by Jesus here in Matthew 16, but this is an authority that is not exclusive to Peter but is extended to the church as a whole, as in Matthew 18:18, where He tells all His disciples, and thus us by extension, "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Is Jesus talking to Cephas as an individual or to the church as a whole? Think, man!

b) Forgiveness of sin. We see the same thing again, but applied differently, in John 20:23, where Jesus again tells all His disciples and again us by extension, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld." So, in so doing, Jesus delegates authority to human leaders in the church who are called to govern His church on earth, under His ultimate authority, through the application of His Word. Now, of course, only God can truly forgive sin, but certainly we can personally forgive each other (and must), and with regard to church authority certainly must also personally forgive and corporately pronounce God's forgiveness. To the latter, church authorities can pronounce forgiveness upon church congregants ~ after corporate confession of sin (which should take place in every worship service), God's forgiveness, in the context of John's statement that, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). This is what Peter himself was exhorting his hearers to in Acts 2:38 when he said, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit," and again in Acts 10:43 when he said, "everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name," and Paul in Acts 13:38, where he said, "Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this Man (He whom God raised up, Jesus) forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by Him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses," and Paul again in Acts 26, where he was telling of his conversion (documented in Acts 9, of course), when he quoted Jesus's directive to Paul, "...to whom I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Me."

That's fine and dandy, but the power to forgive sins was given to sinful humans, the APOSTLES, not to congregations. And by extension, to PRIESTS (presbyters, elders). If any congregation doesn't have legitimate priests to confess their sins to, how can there be forgiveness and absolution? It's IMPOSSIBLE.

By What Authority - A Challenge to Protestant Pastors

Consequently, the confessional is mocked by "Bible Christians". You see in movies mafiosos talking to the priest in a confessional. St. Pope John Paul II excommunicated all members of organized crime and drug lords, and Hollywood never got the memo.


The context of binding and loosing can be found in any Jewish source. I'd post one but I am too lazy :)

I understand.


Ah. Will do! So sorry to hear that. Really.

Hey, do you go to bed and get up at the same times every night and day? Even if you don't actually sleep for stretches... It may help if you get a little, um, militaristic, about that. As much as you can, anyway... Not an overnight fix, but over a bit of time maybe you can force your body into a better circadian rhythm; I had to do that after some medical troubles I had... And exercise more regularly, if you don't... And maybe the biggest thing (it was for me, anyway) is to not worry about getting sleep, which of course is easier said than done, but worry can do a lot of bad things to a person...

Just preach the Gospel to yourself, man. Rest in that. Remind yourself that God is for you (Romans 8:31) and that "...we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:37-39).

Grace and peace to you, JT!

It's complicated. I have bipolar disorder, lost a kidney to cancer, had a quadruple bypass, stopped riding a bicycle due to diminished sense of balance, and my health has been rapidly declining since. Right now, I am in Portugal and hope to soon visit FATIMA and sense that I will receive a miracle, spiritual or physical or both.

 

[amigo de christo]

So, your take is that the Church founded by Christ is an "invisible" Church, right?

Wrong. Christ's Church has to be a visible, authoritative body that Christ declared, addressing its first earthly leader, “I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 16:19). What good would it have done to bestow the keys upon a Church so formless as to defy any effort to identify it? Then, too, Christ speaks of a visible Church when he recommends recourse to it for settling disputes among his followers: “Refer it to the Church” (Matt. 18:17). How would he know where to go if the Church were invisible? He tells his followers, who make us the Church on earth, that they are “the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house” (Matt. 5:14-15; see also Luke 8:16,11:33).

The visibility of the Church is no light matter. It underlies the ultimate source of Christian belief: Church or Bible? Its importance surpasses that of other divisive issues, such as the veneration of saints or confession.

The question of Church visibility arose (often the subject was deliberately introduced) Christ’s Church does have an invisible quality in that it is his Mystical Body on earth. But to understand the Church as having no visibility at all – and, as a consequence, no authority at all—conjures up a Church as tenuous as feathers in the wind. It’s almost as if Jesus, in setting up his Church, didn’t quite know what he was doing.

A point which some controversialists appear to overlook is that only a visible, authoritative Church could have set in place the pillars that would support Christian belief and practice through the ages. To those who cry “Prove it!” here are a few examples:

1. Codification of the Bible. The Bible did not codify itself, did not specify which books, among many, were to be seen as inspired. A visible, authoritative body, comprised of bishops, decided the content of the canon.

2. The worldwide councils. Christianity’s doctrinal parameters have been charted by the ecumenical councils, now numbering 21, each conducted under the authority of the visible, universal Church. Not once in those 21 sessions did an “invisible” group of bishops meet and deliberate. 3. The Lord’s day. The Christian Sunday replaced the Saturday sabbath of the Old Testament. The visible Church made this change.

4. Christmas and Easter. The Bible nowhere mentions the word “Christmas” or the date for Christmas. The celebration of Christmas on December 25 was a decision of the Church. (The feast didn’t arise all by itself.) Much the same can be said for Easter as a feast separate from the other Sundays which commemorate the Resurrection. It was a visible Church, headed by a definitely locatable pope, that settled the dates of observance for the two key feasts.

5. The calendar. It is Christ’s visible Church, its reach extending into the secular realm, which has given us the Gregorian calendar, named after Pope Gregory XIII.

The true apostels , though in hiding , governed the church from jerusalem .
IF we take notice when hard thoughts concerning matters came up , they took it to the elders , aka the apostels
at Jerusalem . Thus you dont see me arguing the point about a governing church .
However them said apostels would have rebuked the RCC and would have warned all to flee her chambers .
SOMETHING went wrong . I did me a wee bit of study . And guess whose books
i even used , catholic sources themselves . Now something went dead wrong my friend .
As i sat , long ago , in that library invesitgating the different faiths for myself
like the mormon , the jw , the RCC , It was quickly seen oh dear these are in deadly dire trouble .
I even read on their own sources . Yet today everyone seems to say they all fine .
No sir they aint all fine . I do not condemn them , but i must warn and warn i must for folks to flee those chambers.
And yes i even read on calvin and others too . DO not sit under calvin .
I read on even augustine . They have truths but they got problems too .
And i mean deadly ones . one thing i noticed about them all , and even about every false one
YOU aint never gonna see them spouting all lies . Pard they spout truths too . But beware them .
No , not even the devil comes without a slant on the truth , and he too can even quoate the scrips .
But he twists . The problem is most folks have not really submitted to GOD
and they are not in the scriptures for themselves either . THEY LETTING MEN do the twisting . And that will not bode well
for them at all .

 

[amigo de christo]

So, your take is that the Church founded by Christ is an "invisible" Church, right?

Wrong. Christ's Church has to be a visible, authoritative body that Christ declared, addressing its first earthly leader, “I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 16:19). What good would it have done to bestow the keys upon a Church so formless as to defy any effort to identify it? Then, too, Christ speaks of a visible Church when he recommends recourse to it for settling disputes among his followers: “Refer it to the Church” (Matt. 18:17). How would he know where to go if the Church were invisible? He tells his followers, who make us the Church on earth, that they are “the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house” (Matt. 5:14-15; see also Luke 8:16,11:33).

The visibility of the Church is no light matter. It underlies the ultimate source of Christian belief: Church or Bible? Its importance surpasses that of other divisive issues, such as the veneration of saints or confession.

The question of Church visibility arose (often the subject was deliberately introduced) Christ’s Church does have an invisible quality in that it is his Mystical Body on earth. But to understand the Church as having no visibility at all – and, as a consequence, no authority at all—conjures up a Church as tenuous as feathers in the wind. It’s almost as if Jesus, in setting up his Church, didn’t quite know what he was doing.

A point which some controversialists appear to overlook is that only a visible, authoritative Church could have set in place the pillars that would support Christian belief and practice through the ages. To those who cry “Prove it!” here are a few examplee to be seen as inspired. A visible, authoritative body, comprised of bishops, decided the content of the canon.

2. The worldwide councils. Christianity’s doctrinal parameters have been charted by the ecumenical councils, now numbering 21, each conducted under the authority of the visible, universal Church. Not once in those 21 sessions did an “invisible” group of bishops meet and deliberate. 3. The Lord’s day. The Christian Sunday replaced the Saturday sabbath of the Old Testament. The visible Church made this change.

4. Christmas and Easter. The Bible nowhere mentions the word “Christmas” or the date for Christmas. The celebration of Christmas on December 25 was a decision of the Church. (The feast didn’t arise all by itself.) Much the same can be said for Easter as a feast separate from the other Sundays which commemorate the Resurrection. It was a visible Church, headed by a definitely locatable pope, that settled the dates of observance for the two key feasts.

5. The calendar. It is Christ’s visible Church, its reach extending into the secular realm, which has given us the Gregorian calendar, named after Pope Gregory XIII.

its true the bible did not codify itself . that true men sorted out the rift raft from the truth and put together
the canon .
Its also true that Jerusalem and their leaders had done the same .
But its also true that something went wrong with the leaders in jersualem
and even though their scholars still copied the torah faithfully , THEIR LEADERSHIP was tanked .
Same too with the RCC . Sure early bishops and etc might have been inspired by GOD
to get together the canon . BUT SOMETHING went wrong in that place .
And just as did the jewish leaders hold and cliam the torah , so too do the RCC hold claim to the canon
ONLY , see the point yet . ONLY THE LEADERSHIP IS GONE its tanked .
GOD was always in control and HE sure did inspire the putting together of the canon
But just as with the jewish leaders who through the centuries by and large DECIEVED the masses
SO TOO does the RCC. Its not gonna bode well . And beleive me when i say , SO TOO does a whole lot of the protestant
realm decieve its own . Even though some too claim WE HOLD to the bible , THEY SURE
seem to twist and omit stuff . Not looking good for those whose hope and trust be in men .
In fact cursed be the man whose hope be in man . BLESSED be the man whose hope be in the LORD .
The RCC was the first major denomination to make a claim as its the one true church
but it sure aint been the last . And as always a lot of folks from both camps , throughout history
sit under their same system , watchtower , RCC , mormon and etc , TRUSTING IN their system
their men as though they be the HOLY MOUTH OF GOD , when in fact those men are DECIEVING THEM ALL .

 

[amigo de christo]

Ye shall know them by their message . are they trying to make you JW , MORMON , CATHOLIC
or are they simply focusing on the gospel and all biblical truth .
I seem to see me lots of catholics and they always trying to focus on getting folks into their church
NOT ON BIBLICAL DOCTRINE , Not on the preaching of JESUS
but on the conversion to they church . I SEE This with the mormon , jw , and scores of others too .
YE shall know them by what they focus on .
Many focus on making desciples of men and of their own organization
and now in the end the focus has been on trying to imply and get us all back under one organization again .
SHOULD have been on CHRIST , on biblical doctrine .
Who is paul , who is appollos , RING any bells yet .
But today the mantra is lets be catholic .
It can easily be seen and discerned where the heart of man truly is my friends .
IS it on their system , OR IS IT ON GOD and HIS CHRIST .

 

[PinSeeker]

My replies to you are an indirect reply to the readers.

Hmmm, that seems very narcissistic...

How can that be?

Go back and reread my post from a little while back. I was quite clear. The one you misread... or misunderstood somehow. Oh wait, sorry, that post was in response to Augustin, and you may not have read that one at all. Anyway, yeah, Post #528.

The context of binding and loosing can be found in any Jewish source.

Yes, but the context is not always the same, even in the Bible itself.

Is Jesus talking to Cephas as an individual or to the church as a whole?

Um, yes. :)

Think, man!

I might say the same to you. :)

That's fine and dandy, but the power to forgive sins was given to sinful humans, the APOSTLES, not to congregations. And by extension, to PRIESTS (presbyters, elders).

We can all forgive, of course, but not in any salvific sense; we cannot cleanse anyone of unrighteousness. Only God can do that. But again, thanks be to God, if we confess our sins, He ~ God ~ is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

If any congregation doesn't have legitimate priests to confess their sins to, how can there be forgiveness and absolution? It's IMPOSSIBLE.

By What Authority - A Challenge to Protestant Pastors

Ah, good ol' CatholicApologetics... <chuckle> As Jesus says ~ and it certainly can be applied to our conversation here, to what we're talking about ~ with man this is impossible, but with God... (Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 18:27).

It's complicated. I have bipolar disorder, lost a kidney to cancer, had a quadruple bypass, stopped riding a bicycle due to diminished sense of balance, and my health has been rapidly declining since.

Mercy. So sorry. Well, easy for me to say, I guess, but, well, God works all things ~ all things ~ together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).

Right now, I am in Portugal and hope to soon visit FATIMA and sense that I will receive a miracle, spiritual or physical or both.

Well, Godspeed to you. But I have to say, that sounds a bit like the crippled man by the pool in Bethesda (John 5:2-9)...

Grace and peace to you, JT.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

True . but what happens when said leaders who were to teach said people no longer teach and instruct said people
up in the way . THEY LEAVEN TO THE FULL is what happens .
YES , even paul , even john , james and others had folks in error within said churches .
BUT THOSE MEN CORRECTED
THESE DO NOT and thus ITS GOTTEN MUCH WORSE and VERY FAST .
WHEN the BLIND lead , ITS ALL GOING DOWN .
WHEN TRUE MEN Lead , YES of course the church will have errors within it
BUT THE TRUE MEN CORRECT SAID ERRORS and said SINS . tHEY DONT Just
overlook them and try and gain numbers . WE IN TOTAL TROUBLE now .
THe leaven was left uncorrected by seeker friendly means and BOY HAS IT LEAVENED UP THE HOUSE .

People can o nly be leavened if they do not behave like BVereans and search th eScriptures to verify.

As Pres. Reagan said: "trust but verify".

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Hmmm, that seems very narcissistic...

A narcissist thinks only for him/her SELF at the expense of others. A forum sadist derives pleasure by inflicting discomfort on others. A forum masochist is addicted to being repeatedly refuted. A forum sado-masochist is one sick puppy.

Go back and reread my post from a lplittle while back. I was quite clear. The one you misread... or misunderstood somehow. Oh wait, sorry, that post was in response to Augustin, and you may not have read that one at all. Anyway, yeah, Post #528.

I wanted to reply, but got sidetracked with garden variety misconceptions some 10 posts later, and the pontifications of a Jehovah's Witless.
(oops, a typo :)

Yes, but the context is not always the same, even in the Bible itself.

Then provide context for "binding and loosing" the way the Jews understood it. You're baiting me to do your homework for you:

BINDING AND LOOSING - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

Binding and loosing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Is Jesus talking to Cephas as an individual or to the church as a whole?

Um, yes. :)

Um, that doesn't answer the question. FIRST Jesus granted the power to bind and loose to Cephas (=Kephas; = Peter = Rock) as an individual, LATER granted the power to bind and loose to the APOSTLES as a collective. Neither one refers to each individual believer. That's a man made tradition that DENIES the Magisterium, in both OT and NT, that the so called reformers were forced to make.

We can all forgive, of course, but not in any salvific sense; we cannot cleanse anyone of unrighteousness. Only God can do that.

That's true, but when a Catholic priest grants absolution, he is representing the Church as "persona Christi", not himself. Do you want proof text?

But again, thanks be to God, if we confess our sins, He ~ God ~ is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

We must, and do, confess directly to God. But that leaves out dealing with the consequences of serious sins. Stealing a pen from work is not the same as stealing food from a hungry family. Cursing the idiot who cuts you off on the freeway is not the same as a mother who murders her unborn baby. Penitent wicked people need pastoral counselling, available free to wicked Catholics. The confessional is a shower for the soul, not a torture chamber of guilt and shame.

Ah, good ol' CatholicApologetics... <chuckle> As Jesus says ~ and it certainly can be applied to our conversation here, to what we're talking about ~ with man this is impossible, but with God... (Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 18:27).

Yup, look at the impossible conversion stories.

Conversion Stories Archives - The Coming Home Network

Mercy. So sorry. Well, easy for me to say, I guess, but, well, God works all things ~ all things ~ together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).


Well, Godspeed to you. But I have to say, that sounds a bit like the crippled man by the pool in Bethesda (John 5:2-9)...

Precisely.

Grace and peace to you, JT.

And to you PS. I'll send you a follow up if the ride to FATIMA works out; in private conversations. I don't like tempting the Christian Taliban Mary bashers.

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh there be a message from heaven . concerning the harlot , COME YE OUT OF HER
be not partakers of her sin , FOR STRONG is the LORD GOD ALL MIGHTY that shall judge her .
Come ye out my peoples and unify not with a harlot .