When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[ReChoired]

Sorry. You are determined to omit verses.
Only pretrib rapture allows for rev 14:14, mat 24 ( 2 gatherings),and mat 25 the 10 virgin parable

No other position incorporates the pretrib rapture verses

Again, no such thing exists in scripture. You keep saying words, but those words do not appear in scripture. You have "private interpretation".

Mat. 24-25 and Rev. 14:14 are not two gatherings.

The structure of Revelation is seen here - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[The Light]

Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

- Revelation 13:11-18

Satan's number is not 666. The two horned beast of the earths number is 666. This beast is the rider on the white horse, the seventh king.

And don't get sidetracked with 666 being the 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th vial. The 7 seals go in chronological order.

 

[The Light]

Again, no such thing exists in scripture. You keep saying words, but those words do not appear in scripture. You have "private interpretation".

Mat. 24-25 and Rev. 14:14 are not two gatherings.

The structure of Revelation is seen here - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Jehovah Witness?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Again, no such thing exists in scripture. You keep saying words, but those words do not appear in scripture. You have "private interpretation".

Mat. 24-25 and Rev. 14:14 are not two gatherings.

The structure of Revelation is seen here - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Lol
Jesus on a cloud
Jesus on a horse
Jesus gathers the bride in virgin parable
( those 3 DISTINCT AND VIVID GATHERINGS ARE CORRUPTED BY YOUR TEACHERS)
Jesus comes after the tribulation in mat 24
Jesus comes BEFORE THE FLOOD in mat 24
Jesus comes BEFORE SODOM DESTROYED
(All rapture verses are peacetime, normal life, and commerce..)
Your doctrine has never discovered ANY OF THOSE VERSES..and neither have you.
The BIBLE is correct friend. You are way, way off.
Not to mention Acts 1 and the 2 escape verses.

...all that is FORBIDDEN, OMITTED, AND DEMANDS THE HOLY BIBLE CHANGED in your erroneous doctrine.
Your doctrine also has zero knowledge of the groom gathering the bride, and the crown in heaven for those that are waiting for his coming.Nor does your doctrine have a single postrib rapture verse!
The Bible ends with heaven and pretribbers calling out for the groom to come.
Your testimony is "no such thing exists"
Woah...and all that has no red flags for any postribber. Clinging to omission and a changed bible.

Friend your doctrine is poorly thought out.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Prove what you say with scripture. Where the heck are you getting this stuff from?

The 144 k are ethnic Jews. Vividly depicted.
Rev7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

They are firstfruits
Revelation 14:4
These are they which are not defiled with women: for they are virgins: these follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth: these are bought from men, being the firstfruits unto God, and unto the Lamb.

Firstfruits means they are HARVESTED first.
( the first harvested Jews)
They are harvested DURING the trib.

Now that we know that, what HAS TO come next???
Main harvest.
Rev14:14 is in FACT main harvest OF JEWS.

I hope you do not gloss over that.
It nullifies EVERY POSTRIB RAPTURE TEACHING.
Game changer.
Postrib rapture doctrine is very poorly thought out.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I Strongly Disagree

Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation in fire and final judgement (The End)

That is mat 24
Every position believes that.
But it is not, nor can be , the rapture.
if you read it carefully, after the tribulation, angels gather...not Jesus, He rides a horse, and is not the groom gathering the bride. There are no horses in ANY RAPTURE verses.
Plus that gathering is IN HEAVEN, NOT EARTH.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The chirch

Here is the 7th seal:
When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

- Revelation 8:1-6

The Church can not be on earth at the 7th trump.
Impossible.
The gathering of Jews is before the 7th trump.
IOW ...DURING THE TRIB.
your doctrine has the dead in Christ NOT RISING FIRST.
Due to Jesus comes in Rev 14:14, DURING THE TRIB.

most postribs are completely blinded to that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I hope ALL OF YOU know that the postrib rapture doctrine has a foundation.
It is "only one coming"
Rev 14:14 makes that entire premise A LIE.
( and many more verses)
beating a dead horse with zero verses.

Postrib rapture doctrine is so poorly thought out.
Why do they cling to error?
It is 2 part.
1) pride
2) a HUGE INVESTMENT in that error

That is WHY they are left with the 2 part weak argument of extra biblical taking points, and a futile attempt at attacking the pretrib rapture doctrine.

And why they cannot go toe to toe with us in honest debate.
Bible rules every time..but not here.

 

[rebuilder 454]

When did I do that? Prove it, please. Thx.

Here:
"Amen! And yet the Living Word has foretold told us:

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

- 2 Thessalonians 2:3-5 (NKJV)"

The AC is revealed pretrib.
He is in power after the pretrib rapture.
Your verse affirms " revealed", not "in power for 7-years."
If it were talking about a postrib rapture, it would never say "revealed".
That would make no sense at all.
It would be like saying Obama was revealed after his 8 year regime.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I hope ALL OF YOU know that the postrib rapture doctrine has a foundation.
It is "only one coming"
Rev 14:14 makes that entire premise A LIE.
( and many more verses)
beating a dead horse with zero verses.

Postrib rapture doctrine is so poorly thought out.
Why do they cling to error?
It is 2 part.
1) pride
2) a HUGE INVESTMENT in that error

That is WHY they are left with the 2 part weak argument of extra biblical taking points, and a futile attempt at attacking the pretrib rapture doctrine.

And why they cannot go toe to toe with us in honest debate.
Bible rules every time..but not here.

All you do is babble and you don't do anything to show how your false pretrib rapture doctrine could possibly be true. Are you too afraid to actually exegete scripture instead of just babbling? Are you afraid of what you might discover if you actually look at scripture closely?

Just referencing Revelation 14:14 proves nothing. You don't recognize the parallels within the book of Revelation so you interpret the whole thing in chronological order. That leads to all kinds of conclusions that contradict other scripture. You should not interpret the book of Revelation in isolation from other scripture. You should not interpret anything in that book which doesn't line up with other scripture, but that's exactly what you're doing.

Show me where Paul taught a pretrib rapture. He taught that Christ will destroy His enemies when the rapture occurs (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10), so why would you interpret the book of Revelation in such a way that contradicts what Paul taught?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is mat 24
Every position believes that.
But it is not, nor can be , the rapture.
if you read it carefully, after the tribulation, angels gather...not Jesus, He rides a horse, and is not the groom gathering the bride. There are no horses in ANY RAPTURE verses.
Plus that gathering is IN HEAVEN, NOT EARTH.

You are very ignorant. Don't just read Matthew 24. Read Mark 13 and Luke 21 as well. All are accounts of the Olivet Discourse and we should read all of them to get the full understanding of it. Jesus said the elect will be gathered from BOTH heaven and earth when He comes AFTERr the tribulatIon of those days"

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jehovah Witness?

Either that or a Seventh-day Adventist. They also believe that Michael is Jesus. Which is insane since Michael is described as an archangel (Jude 1:9) and as "one of the chief princes" (Daniel 10:13). Jesus is neither an archangel nor just "one of the chief princes". No, Michael is an angel. An archangel of which there is more than one since what Daniel called "chief princes" must be archangels. I would think Gabriel is another one. But, not Jesus. He is God and man, not an angel. Unlike the JWs, SDAs do not deny the deity of Christ so I don't know why they would believe that Michael is Jesus.

 

[The Light]

LOL!!! That is a lie. It's already been done many times and you still believe everything the same.

Then it it to be easy enough for you to produce some proof. Expecting crickets none the less.

LOL. Give me a break. You will do anything to avoid the points I make. You are saying the word "many" itself means many, but not all. I gave examples showing otherwise and then you come up with this nonsense. I can't take you seriously because you are so incredibly dishonest.

Many of them shows many has a qualifier. None of the examples that you produced has a qualifier. You point is in error. FACT.

You understand that the Bible wasn't written in English, right? We're talking about the Hebrew word rab here. In the KJV translation of the verse that word is translated as just "many". Then the Hebrew word "yāšēn" is translated as "of them that sleep". In no way, shape or form is it saying many, but not all of them that sleep in the dust will awake. It's referring to all of them who sleep in the dust, of which there are many. Here is how the verse is translated in the NIV:

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Is this referring to "multitudes", but not all who sleep in the dust of the earth? No. It's referring to all who sleep in the dust of the earth, whose number are "multitudes". There is no reason whatsoever to not relate Daniel 12:2 directly to this passage as there will NOT be two different times when both saved and lost dead people are resurrected.

No. Multitudes is not all.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

The idea of there being two different times when both saved and lost dead people are resurrected in the future is not taught at all anywhere in scripture. It's a ridiculous idea that should be endlessly mocked.

*yawn* All that are in ground will rise as John 5:28 says. That will happen after many of them that are in the dust of the earth will rise, just as Daniel 12:2 says.

I'm not sure why you are unable to grasp these facts.

I did not say that! That is an absolute lie! All I said was that the Hebrew word rab was translated as "great" most of the time that I saw. It's translated in the Old Testament hundreds of times. But, it's translated as "much" or "many" a number of times as well. I shouldn't have even pointed that out since it didn't even relate to my point, which only related to when it is translated as "many".

You had to have known that was in error. Or why would you make a statement like that without presenting the facts.

You have done NOTHING to prove that my interpretation of Daniel 12:1-2 isn't correct. All you've done is show your dishonesty and bias over and over again.

If you want to deny what the words the many of them mean, nothing can be done.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then it it to be easy enough for you to produce some proof. Expecting crickets none the less.

Did you miss that I said it's already been provided many times and you ignored it? Why should I waste my time to prove it yet again when I know you will just ignore it yet again?

Many of them shows many has a qualifier. None of the examples that you produced has a qualifier. You point is in error. FACT.

Total nonsense. It's referring to them that are in the dust (physically dead) and the number of them is "many". Or as other translations put it "multitudes". Look at this verse:

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

You understand that Jesus was talking about all who are called there, right? And He said they are "many". Few of the many who are called, which is all people, are chosen.

Would the meaning of the verse change at all if it said "For many of them represented by those invited to the wedding in the parable are called, but few of them are chosen"? No, it wouldn't change it at all. It would still mean that all are called, but few are chosen, with the number of those who are called being "many". So, your argument about the supposed qualifier in Daniel 12:2 is invalid.

No. Multitudes is not all.

LOL. Multitudes can describe how many all of them are. Your arguments are extremely weak.

 

[honeycomb]

Satan's number is not 666. The two horned beast of the earths number is 666. This beast is the rider on the white horse, the seventh king.

And don't get sidetracked with 666 being the 6th seal, 6th trumpet and 6th vial. The 7 seals go in chronological order.

The “two-horned beast“ IS Satan (the Antichrist) and his number IS 666.

Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. - Revelation 13:11

Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666. - Revelation 13:18

The sixth seal is not when Jesus comes, but that he most assuredly is coming again. Better wait until the seventh trumpet. We need to understand that the Seals are for knowledge. They inform us of what will happen in the Trumps and Vials; they are like an outline of information. They are not in chronological order. The Trumps and Vials, on the other hand, are in chronological order.

 

[The Light]

Did you miss that I said it's already been provided many times and you ignored it? Why should I waste my time to prove it yet again when I know you will just ignore it yet again?

No. I didn't miss what you said, I missed the proof as there isn't any. This is why you are unable to reproduce it.

Total nonsense. It's referring to them that are in the dust (physically dead) and the number of them is "many". Or as other translations put it "multitudes". Look at this verse:

Many of them is not all of them. Can't make it any clearer than that. And yet you want to argue the facts.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

You understand that Jesus was talking about all who are called there, right? And He said they are "many". Few of the many who are called, which is all people, are chosen.

Would the meaning of the verse change at all if it said "For many of them represented by those invited to the wedding in the parable are called, but few of them are chosen"? No, it wouldn't change it at all. It would still mean that all are called, but few are chosen, with the number of those who are called being "many". So, your argument about the supposed qualifier in Daniel 12:2 is invalid.

So you think ALL are called?

Ephesians 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

LOL. Multitudes can describe how many all of them are. Your arguments are extremely weak.

As you say multitudes can describe how many all of them are. But "multitudes of them" is not all of them.

Your argument is not weak as you have no argument.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you think ALL are called?

Ephesians 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Yes, I believe all people are called to salvation, which is what the verse I referenced (Matthew 22:14) is about. But, few are chosen. Do you deny this?

 

[David in NJ]

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall “rise first”: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”


Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at “the last day.”

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at “the last day.”

So it is clear, the dead are raised on “the last day”.

Notice the judgment is also on the last day as well….

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in “the last day.”
The Judgment of saints is shown on the last day…. Revelation 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and “judgment was given unto them:”and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Confirmed here….

Daniel 7:21-22 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and “judgment was given to the saints”of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”


When do saints posses the kingdoms of this world?

Revelation 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”


Daniel was told when he shall stand in the lot of his inheritance, and that was not until “the end.”


Daniel 12:13 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at “the end of the days.”


Notice in the above, (Daniel 7:22) Christ first comes and the judgment is given to the saints on the last day.

So when does Christ come?

Son of Gods coming last day….


Luke 17:26-31

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until “the day”that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in “the day”when the Son of man is revealed.”


Notice above it was “the day” Noah entered they were destroyed, and “the same day” Lot left Sodom they were destroyed.

At the last day, at the Last Trump….

1Corinthians 15:51-52 “Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at “the last trump:” for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed”

Notice at “the last trump”the dead are raised, and so what happens at the last trump…


Revelation 10:7 7 But in the days of the voice of “the seventh angel,” when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be “finished,” as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:12 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:15 15 And “the seventh angel sounded;” and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Also notice the elect are still on earth during the great tribulation and wrath of God.


Matthew 24:22 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 7:14 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 16:15 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


All the scriptures agree there is no resurrection of the dead or the living in Christ until “the last day,”and at “the last trump.”

All the scriptures agree there is no resurrection of the dead or the living in Christ until “the last day,”and at “the last trump.”

Therefore, "pre-trib" rapture is a complete LIE from satan.

 

[David in NJ]

When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?​

…at the 7th trump— after the AC has come and done his abominations.

Therefore, "pre-trib" rapture is a complete LIE from satan.

 

[David in NJ]

Agreed.


The barley and wheat cakes are presented on Pentecost. However, Pentecost is fully come on the Feast of New Wine which is 50 days later.

Acts 2
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

The summer wheat harvest is celebrated on the Feast of New Wine.


Yes there is. That is what we see here.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy
them which destroy the earth.

There is also the fruit harvest which is celebrated on the Feast of trumpets which is a day of blowing trumpets.

Numbers 29
And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.


The date would be 30AD and this was not a harvest. It was the first fruits with Jesus being the first.


I would like to see this calculation.

Can you provide????????????


No sir, we are waiting for the dead in Christ to rise first, the barley harvest. Then the alive that remained will be raptured, the wheat harvest. Then the fruit harvest will occur at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets......which occurs on the 7th month of the year on the 1st day......Jewish calendar. Those are raptures.

Then comes the judgment and the raising of ALL that are still in the graves.

Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles is celebrated from the evening on the 15th to the evening of the 22nd day to the of the seventh month of Tishrei.

There is ONLY one Second Coming of Christ = Genesis/Prophets/Gospel/Apostles/Revelation
Which ONLY occurs at the END = Matt ch24
When Christ Returns He resurrects the dead in Him = 1 Thess 4:13-18
AFTER the Resurrection of the Just, the rapture takes place = 1 Thess 4:13-18

"pre-trib" rapture has always been a Big Lie from satan