When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[The Light]

First of all, these were not visions. John was actually writing things down as he saw them happening. People do not write stuff down, nor have literal conversations with angels in visions.

The Seals deal directly with the church.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. See Revelation 5.

The Trumpets deal directly with Israel.

The trumpets occur during the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the of God. The wrath of God comes on an unbelieving world. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth are raptured at the 6th seal coming of Jesus. The woman, Israel, those that fled to a place of protection do not experience the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

The Thunders deal with the nations of Gentiles after both the church and Israel are removed. The church was not told what would happen to those left on earth during the Thunders.

The thunders are about events that happen during Armageddon.

Once you read Revelation 8:1, that is it for the Seals.

Yeah, pay no attention to the trumpets and vials of wrath that occur during the 7th seal Day of the Lord.

No more going back in time to the Seals.

There is no going back in time. There is only realizing what you are reading. When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord the millennial kingdom has been set up.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So do you think that the two beasts are operating during the millennial kingdom? Do you think that the vials of wrath happen during the millennial kingdom?

The 7th Trumpet will be a week long event. Revelation 14 is the end of that week.

Revelation 14 happen in the seals. The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. This is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.

Revelation 14 shows that the 144k have been with Jesus on earth from the 7th Seal, during the first 6 Trumpets, and the 7 Thunders.

Those 144,000 become believers early in the seals. You need to understand what you are reading to understand that.

They were the firstfruits of the final harvest.

They are firstfruits of the second harvest.

They were sealed before the 7th Seal was opened and were on the earth at the time they were sealed

They are sealed and raptured as first fruits before the 5th seal. Those that are killed as they were are killed during the great tribulation, the fifth seal.

, because the rapture and Second Coming had just happened. They were never a part of the church, because they were not raptured. When they were sealed, is when God redeemed them

When they were sealed is when they became Christians. They are the firstfruits of the second harvest. The second harvest occurs at the 6th seal. The 144,000 have to be raptured as firstfruits before the 5th seal as the harvest takes place at the 6th seal.

and they were translated out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh and given a permanent incorruptible physical body.

stop it.

They would serve Jesus and follow Him on the earth during the judgment of the sheep and goats that the first 6 Trumpets cover as a time period. Matthew 13 covers the 7 Thunders. Jesus is sowing the seed that is gathered as wheat, while Satan is sowing the tares to disrupt the process. We know the sheep and wheat are redeemed and changed as well, but are not the church. The goats and tares are humans literally cast alive into the LOF. We are not specifically told what the 144k do, but wherever Jesus goes on the earth, they are right there with Him like the Messiah and those 12 disciples. The 144k would be the camp of the saints surrounding Jerusalem throughout the Day of the Lord. Since they number 1200 from each tribe of Jacob they are probably the heads of families representing all of Israel during this period of time. They are described as virgins at that point. No verse states they remain that way for a thousand years.

The Day of the Lord is the one year day of wrath of God. It is not the 1000 year millennial kingdom.

That they are mentined both in Revelation 7 and 14 does not mean chapter 14 is back in the Seals. It just means the 144k have gone through the Trumpets and Thunders side by side with Jesus as King in Jerusalem,

The great multitude is in heaven before the 7th seal. The 144,000 are the firstfruits of those that came out of Great Tribulation BEFORE the 7th seal is opened.

When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, the Day of the Lord will begin

When the 7th trumpet stops sounding the Day of the Lord WILL END. Then the 1000 year millennial kingdom will begin when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

How many verses do I have to post before you understand that the Day of the Lord is the day of wrath. It is not the millennial kingdom. Look up "day of the Lord" with parenthesis in Bible Gateway. All you will see is the wrath of God. There are no verses that show it is the 1000 year millennial kingdom. You are confused because 2 Peter 3 says that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Do you not understand that one day can also be one year?

 

[Jay Ross]

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. See Revelation 5.

Really, I do not believe that this is true at all. It is just your private opinion/understanding and as far as I know it is not scriptural.

 

[Jay Ross]

The thunders are about events that happen during Armageddon

My understanding is that Armageddon will occur in around 20 years from now, around the time of the end of the sixth age.

 

[The Light]

The heavens will roll back as a scroll, and all the works on earth will be burned up, at the 6th Seal.

The great tribulation is about to come down on them, and there is no escaping. Not even by physical death per the 5th Trumpet:

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. It is not beginning. I'm not sure why you are having trouble grasping this as the proof is seen in the verses below.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

You don't think, that when the heavens roll back as a scroll, that is symbolic of the heavens passing away as all that we know and understand will be dissolved in this baptism of fire, Jesus brings at the Second Coming?

Once again:

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

How many times do you think everything burns up?

Just once.

Isaiah 65

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

 

[The Light]

The only action in the 5th Seal is putting on the robes of white, nothing else. Is being glorified considered tribulation in your thinking?

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season."

Is resting actually doing something? Is waiting, literal torture?

You missed part of the verse. I highlighted it for you
Revelation 6
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The tribulation of those days was what the church has endured since 30AD. That tribulation stops when the church is removed from the earth and glorified. Jacob's Trouble is on earth during the first 6 Trumpets, while the church is waiting in heaven. Those in the 5th Seal are told to wait, after being glorified.

Has the abomination of desolation been set up? Have those in Israel fled to their place of protection for 42 months?


Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

You place the entire chapter of Matthew 24, it seems, into one Seal, the 5th Seal,

Mmmm. The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows in Mattew 24. The fifth seal is the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24. And the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.

Jacob's trouble is not over in a twinkling of an eye. It is just getting started and that is why the church is told to wait, until all of the Trumpets and Thunders are over.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. I'm not sure why so many don't understand this simple Biblical concept.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

People are still being redeemed out of Adam's dead flesh on the earth. Just like the church has been redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh over the last 2 millennia.

Stop it.

The 5th Seal is symbolic of the church harvested from the earth. Not symbolic of tribulation.

The 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Yes, the church has gone through tribulation on the earth. Many are going through tribulation even today. That is why it is the tribulation of those days, and not Jacob's trouble of the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus said the church would suffer trouble and persecution, Matthew 24:4-13. That is the great tribulation in these verses:

Brother, you are really confused.

The trumpets and thunders are part of the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the one-year Day of the Lord. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal.........as I have shown you...........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple."

Exactly. They came out of Great Tribulation. They were raptured at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

 

[The Light]

No, Jesus does not remain in the clouds.

No???????????

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Revelation 14 is not about the Seals nor the Second Coming.

The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 is the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then the 7th seal is opened and the Day of the Lord begins.

The church is not removed before the Seals are opened.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

That contradicts Paul stating the rapture and Second Coming are one single event.

You misunderstand. Gathering at the second coming at the 6th seal is the gathering from heaven and earth. It is the Church that is gathered from heaven.

The 5th and 6th Seals are the rapture and Second Coming as Paul's event, mentioned in several places.

The 5th seal is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the gathering from heaven and earth........the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds and world is cast into the wrath of God.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 14 takes place at the end of the week of days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Revelation 14 contains the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes that are redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14 contains the great tribulation.......the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The 7th Trumpet takes places after the 7 Thunders. The 7 Thunders happen after the first 6 Trumpets. The first Trumpet will not even sound until that half hour of silence is over at the 7th Seal.

Great.

However, all the trumpets and thunders are the wrath of God..........The day of the Lord.

 

[The Light]

Daniel sees from the Second Coming until the GWT as one single event. You cannot use Daniel to interpret Revelation.

Are you using your misunderstanding of Daniel to interpret Revelation?

You can only use Revelation to see many aspects and time references left out from Daniel's view that was more vague than what Paul saw. Only John experienced and wrote down the events as they actually may happen.

Maybe you should read Isaiah and Zechariah among others.

God did not even let John write down the 7 Thunders, so we still do not have every detail.

Right. However, we can determine that Armageddon happens during the thunders.

The church is not detailed in Daniel 12. Daniel never even understood what we know about the church 2500 years later, which is the two times, and a half a time since Daniel.

Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

No one is raised from the dust at the Second Coming. Those delivered in that verse are those of Israel redeemed who are physically alive at the time of the Second Coming, because their names remain in the Lamb's book of Life. The goats are Daniel's people who are not delivered, but removed from the Lamb's book of Life, and physically cast into the LOF.

You confuse the second coming at the 6th seal to events that happen after the 7th trumpet.

 

[The Light]

My understanding is that Armageddon will occur in around 20 years from now, around the time of the end of the sixth age.

At the end of the 6th age?

6000 years?

 

[Jay Ross]

At the end of the 6th age?

6000 years?

No, the duration of a Biblical age is the greatest number that can be counted on our two hands with great dexterity on our part.

You are in fact 144 years short in your estimation of the duration of six ages.

 

[Timtofly]

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. See Revelation 5.


The trumpets occur during the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the of God. The wrath of God comes on an unbelieving world. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth are raptured at the 6th seal coming of Jesus. The woman, Israel, those that fled to a place of protection do not experience the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath.


The thunders are about events that happen during Armageddon.


Yeah, pay no attention to the trumpets and vials of wrath that occur during the 7th seal Day of the Lord.


There is no going back in time. There is only realizing what you are reading. When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord the millennial kingdom has been set up.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So do you think that the two beasts are operating during the millennial kingdom? Do you think that the vials of wrath happen during the millennial kingdom?

Revelation 14 happen in the seals. The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. This is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.


Those 144,000 become believers early in the seals. You need to understand what you are reading to understand that.


They are firstfruits of the second harvest.


They are sealed and raptured as first fruits before the 5th seal. Those that are killed as they were are killed during the great tribulation, the fifth seal.

When they were sealed is when they became Christians. They are the firstfruits of the second harvest. The second harvest occurs at the 6th seal. The 144,000 have to be raptured as firstfruits before the 5th seal as the harvest takes place at the 6th seal.


stop it.

The Day of the Lord is the one year day of wrath of God. It is not the 1000 year millennial kingdom.


The great multitude is in heaven before the 7th seal. The 144,000 are the firstfruits of those that came out of Great Tribulation BEFORE the 7th seal is opened.


When the 7th trumpet stops sounding the Day of the Lord WILL END. Then the 1000 year millennial kingdom will begin when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

How many verses do I have to post before you understand that the Day of the Lord is the day of wrath. It is not the millennial kingdom. Look up "day of the Lord" with parenthesis in Bible Gateway. All you will see is the wrath of God. There are no verses that show it is the 1000 year millennial kingdom. You are confused because 2 Peter 3 says that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Do you not understand that one day can also be one year?

The church is in heaven since the Cross, see Jesus on the Cross.

You should rightly divide the Word of God, and then you would understand the Day of the Lord, instead of a tossed biblical salad of nonsense.

Then you are 2 Peter 3:8 that Peter tells you not to be, because Peter told you that the thousand years was the Day of the Lord that would come as a thief in the night. That is Peter’s words, not mine.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. But the day of the Lord...."

If Peter admonishes you not to be something, why do you call the Day of the Lord something else?

You do not even listen to your own verse:

"For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion."

This does not say the Day of the Lord. It says the day of vengeance, because the word Lord describes whose vengeance. Peter says the Day of the Lord is as a thousand years, but the vengeance is not a thousand years.

This verse says the day AND the year. You missed that conjunction in there. Isaiah did not say the day of vengeance was a year of recompense. It said the vengeance was for one day, and the recompense was for a year.

The Trumpets may last a year. Israel may be going through this greatest time of trouble for a year. It should be 3.5 years but that time is shortened for the elect's sake, Israel.

The 5th and 6th Seal is the rapture, church glorified, and Second Coming, in which the world is baptized in fire, the stars all come to the earth as angels, looking like men, instead of stars. All the works on earth are burned up. The entire state of Israel is geographically changed. The armies about to conquer Israel, dealt with. Jesus sets up a throne in a Temple and then opens the 7th Seal. Then will start removing names from the Lamb's book of life, as Israel is the first nation to be judged and gathered out of all nations, by the stars who now look like men, who are called angels. This is the sheep and goat judgment. This will last through the first 6 Trumpets however long God has decided this time will last. The 144k are sealed while the dust settles from the day of vengeance which is the first day of the year of recompense. Then the 7th Seal is opened and it gets even more exciting on earth than any hurricane or cyclone could possibly accomplish.

Meanwhile, Satan is going to heal the 6th head and spread deception even though all on earth were hiding in fear of God and the Lamb, and both were in clear view of every human. Satan will be sowing tares, while Jesus is sowing the good seed for the final harvest in the 7 Thunders.

Don't you think the Day of the Lord is coming at the Second Coming, explicitly for there to be a perfect Day of the Lord?

Genesis 2 does not describe the Day of the Lord as a year of vengeance and recompense. I am sure that if you looked closer the coming of the Day of the Lord is the worse part, not the actual Day of the Lord. Peter was not comparing a day with a year. Peter was comparing a day with a thousand years.

The Second Coming is glorious for those prepared. The Second Coming is death and destruction for those not prepared. Should you complain about the Second Coming because it is trouble for most on earth? The wicked most certainly will not appreciate the Day of the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

You missed part of the verse. I highlighted it for you
Revelation 6
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Yes, all have to be removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. You cannot take sin and death into eternal life.

The church is glorified, and told to wait until the sheep, wheat, and 144k are translated out of death and sin.

How many times is the church glorified?

The sheep, wheat, and 144k are not glorified, nor part of the church. They are those who live on the earth redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They reign with Christ over their offspring for a thousand years per Isaiah 65 in a new heavens and earth, and nothing from Adam's punishment is remembered any more. The baptism of fire removed all the works of the earth, at the 6th Seal.

They are fellow servants, but not the church.

The symbolism is about being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and slain under the alter in Christ as the Lamb slain on that alter from the foundation of the world.

Compare:

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

With:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Are you in Christ? Is Christ the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Are you slain like Christ being in Christ, even from the foundation of the world?

Your name has never been removed from the Lamb's book of life has it? Then you are still a soul under the alter.

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly. They came out of Great Tribulation. They were raptured at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

The rapture is the only action in the 5th Seal. That is when the church is glorified.

 

[Timtofly]

No???????????

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.



The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 is the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then the 7th seal is opened and the Day of the Lord begins.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

You misunderstand. Gathering at the second coming at the 6th seal is the gathering from heaven and earth. It is the Church that is gathered from heaven.


The 5th seal is the great tribulation. The 6th seal is the gathering from heaven and earth........the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds and world is cast into the wrath of God.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 14 contains the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes that are redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14 contains the great tribulation.......the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Great.

However, all the trumpets and thunders are the wrath of God..........The day of the Lord.

Do you understand symbolism?

Those in Revelation 5 singing in heaven, have already been there. They are not the raptured church.

Revelation 14 is talking about those beheaded during Satan's 42 months if that happens. Revelation 14 starts out with the 144k waiting on heavenly Mount Zion. These are who was overcome in Revelation 13. They were not physically killed. It was like a chess move several moves prior to a checkmate. The 144k had been on the earth from the 7th Seal to the 7th Trumpet, through 6 Trumpets, 7 Thunders, and then the 7th Trumpet.

There is only 1 winepress of God's wrath. God cannot kill every last human twice. The first time is the only time. The winepress in Revelation 14 only happens if Armageddon does not happen in Revelation 19. Revelation 14 is not back in the Seals nor 42 months later in Revelation 19.

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. Revelation 14 is not the Second Coming. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming.

Why do people think Jesus can sit in Judgment in Jerusalem if He is also sitting in heaven next to God? Jesus cannot be physically 2 places at the same time, even though He is God. God sits on a throne that is both on earth and in heaven at the same time. We just cannot see that throne.

Whether Jesus is sitting on a cloud or speaks the Word, as the Word who spoke creation into existence, the result will be the same in Revelation 14 as in Revelation 19. The old will end with the winepress of God's wrath, and the new heavens and earth will immediately begin per Isaiah 65. That is the start of the Day of the Lord. A thousand years later Satan will be loosed to deceive a whole new generation or generations of people to turn against Jesus as King.

The Trumpets and Thunders are the final harvest per Matthew 25 and Matthew 13.

The Seals deal with the church.

The Trumpets deal directly with Israel.

The Thunders deal with the Gentile nations, who are not the church, nor Israel, but the rest of humanity who need redemption from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

All given as symbolism directed at who they are dealing with.

All in the order John said they would happen, not in a split second of time, and it is all over.

The church meets with Jesus in the air, is glorified, and waits in heaven. Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives and sets up His temple and throne. That is covered by the Seals. The Trumpets are the sheep and goat judgment the sheep redeemed wait on the sea of glass. The goats tossed alive into the LOF. The Thunders cover the wheat and tares, the Gentile nations. The wheat wait on the sea of glass with the sheep. The tares tossed alive into the LOF. This is an unfolding process over days, weeks, months, and perhaps years. Only God knows the exactness of this period of time. John gives us the worse case scenario.

Yes, this is a time of vengeance, and the recompense of man's work, as their reward is handed out. The Trumpets are the time of Jacob's trouble many call the GT.


Yes, the church has gone through days of tribulation. Days, weeks, months, years, centuries, and even 2 millennia worth of the tribulation of those days. That all stops when the 5th Seal is opened and the church meets together in the air, most coming from Paradise, and many coming from the earth. They are all glorified and told to wait, while Jesus and the angels are gathering the final harvest on the earth from among the living who are spiritually dead, not physically already dead and in sheol. The rest of the dead, those from sheol still wait until after the Day of the Lord, per Revelation 20.

 

[Timtofly]

Right. However, we can determine that Armageddon happens during the thunders.

Perhaps you are off in your interpretation of the book of Revelation?

We have no idea what happens in the Thunders. John did not write them down.

Are you saying John disobeyed God, and wrote them down anyway?

 

[The Light]

The church is in heaven since the Cross, see Jesus on the Cross.

Do they get their crowns automatically when they die or do they have to wait until Jesus comes.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

You should rightly divide the Word of God, and then you would understand the Day of the Lord, instead of a tossed biblical salad of nonsense.

Then you are 2 Peter 3:8 that Peter tells you not to be, because Peter told you that the thousand years was the Day of the Lord that would come as a thief in the night. That is Peter’s words, not mine.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. But the day of the Lord...."

If Peter admonishes you not to be something, why do you call the Day of the Lord something else?

Whoa, whoa, whoa Cochise. Kind of changing scripture aren't you. I guess you have to change the scripture to make you point work. Maybe you should try rightly dividing the Word of Truth instead of changing the Word to make your doctrine work. Here is the Word without your changes.

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

NEW PARAGRAPH. CHANGE OF SUBJECT.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

You do not even listen to your own verse:

"For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion."

This does not say the Day of the Lord. It says the day of vengeance, because the word Lord describes whose vengeance.

Mmmm. If you don't understand that the Day of the Lord is the day of wrath and the day of vengeance that occurs after the 6th seal is finished, I'm not sure you can rightly divide.

Joel 31
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Peter says the Day of the Lord is as a thousand years, but the vengeance is not a thousand years.

No, that's what you said. The Word doesn't say THE day of the Lord is as a thousand years, it says A day of the Lord is AS a thousand years.

2 Peter 3

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And then this needs to be considered.

Ezekiel 4
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

This verse says the day AND the year. You missed that conjunction in there. Isaiah did not say the day of vengeance was a year of recompense. It said the vengeance was for one day, and the recompense was for a year.

Well if you can figure out how to get all the trumpets of wrath which is the day of the Lord to occurs in a 24 hour period when the 7th seal is opened then maybe you would have a point..........but alas.

The Trumpets may last a year. Israel may be going through this greatest time of trouble for a year. It should be 3.5 years but that time is shortened for the elect's sake, Israel.

The 5th and 6th Seal is the rapture, church glorified, and Second Coming, in which the world is baptized in fire, the stars all come to the earth as angels, looking like men, instead of stars. All the works on earth are burned up. The entire state of Israel is geographically changed. The armies about to conquer Israel, dealt with. Jesus sets up a throne in a Temple and then opens the 7th Seal. Then will start removing names from the Lamb's book of life, as Israel is the first nation to be judged and gathered out of all nations, by the stars who now look like men, who are called angels. This is the sheep and goat judgment. This will last through the first 6 Trumpets however long God has decided this time will last. The 144k are sealed while the dust settles from the day of vengeance which is the first day of the year of recompense. Then the 7th Seal is opened and it gets even more exciting on earth than any hurricane or cyclone could possibly accomplish.

Meanwhile, Satan is going to heal the 6th head and spread deception even though all on earth were hiding in fear of God and the Lamb, and both were in clear view of every human. Satan will be sowing tares, while Jesus is sowing the good seed for the final harvest in the 7 Thunders.

You are all twisted up. You got he second coming occurs at the 6th seal correct.

Don't you think the Day of the Lord is coming at the Second Coming, explicitly for there to be a perfect Day of the Lord?

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth. That is the second coming. Then the Day of the Lord will begin when the 7th seal is opened, starting with silence in heaven. Then the trumpets of wrath occur.

Genesis 2 does not describe the Day of the Lord as a year of vengeance and recompense. I am sure that if you looked closer the coming of the Day of the Lord is the worse part, not the actual Day of the Lord. Peter was not comparing a day with a year. Peter was comparing a day with a thousand years.

Type in "DAY OF THE LORD" into Bible gateway. All you will see is that it is a day of wrath, a time of vengeance, time of destruction, time of anger, A TERRIBLE DAY, the Day of the Lord in the valley of decision, a dreadful day, the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.

The is not even a hint that Day of the Lord is the millennial 1000 year kingdom. Read your Bible.

The Second Coming is glorious for those prepared. The Second Coming is death and destruction for those not prepared. Should you complain about the Second Coming because it is trouble for most on earth? The wicked most certainly will not appreciate the Day of the Lord.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. It is a day of darkness, anger, vengeance, destruction and will end when the trumpets are over. THEN THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM WILL BEGIN.