When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

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The Light

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8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


Dealing out full and complete vengeance = eternal punishment on those who reject the Gospel when he comes for his own.
This happens at the GWT of course.
Hi Jeff,
I'm not sure the point you are trying to make.

Jesus is revealed with His angels at the 6th seal. This is the second coming. The Lord remains in the clouds and there is a harvest, the fall fruit harvest. All return to heaven for the marriage supper.

After the marriage supper which is one year long the armies of heaven return with Jesus to the valley of Megiddo. The battle is won obviously as the Word is spoken and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. The second advent has occurred as Jesus has set His feet on the Mount of Olives. Then the judgement comes.
 

jeffweeder

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Hi Jeff,
I'm not sure the point you are trying to make.
Simply that Jesus is coming not only for all who have believed (the dead and living in Christ) but for all those who didn't believe. (the dead and living without Christ)

We are Glorified while they are eternally judged ON THAT DAY

Matt 16
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory and majesty of His Father with His angels, and then He will repay each one in accordance with what he has done.

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

2Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints ON THAT DAY that day

Jude 1

Jude
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Jn 12
Jn 12

46 I have come as Light into the world, so that no one who believes in Me will remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 The one who rejects Me and does not accept My teachings has one who judges him: the word which I spoke. That will judge him on the last day.

Rom 2

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation.
 
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The Light

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Simply that Jesus is coming not only for all who have believed (the dead and living in Christ) but for all those who didn't believe. (the dead and living without Christ)

We are Glorified while they are eternally judged ON THAT DAY
This is something most of us understand. Thanks.
 

The Light

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You have shown nothing except that you are willing to interpret one passage of scripture in such a way that contradicts other passages of scripture. I'm not willing to do that.
No you are not. You think it is better to CHANGE one scripture, so it does not disagree with the other scripture. I think it is better to UNDERSTAND how both scriptures work perfectly as they are written.

In Danile 12 when MANY of them that sleep in the ground are raised, we are given clarification that this scripture is talking about the people of Daniel. We are also told that this event occurs it the time of the Great Tribulation, and from Matthew 24 we can tell the event occurs IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The scripture is perfect and does not need you to change the words to make it work. The best course of action is to understand what is written.

You have no concern that your interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-17 contradicts John 4:19-22 and Hebrews 8-10. That says it all about you. You have no interest in making sure your interpretation of any given verse or passage doesn't contradict any other verse or passage in scripture.
If you think a verse of scripture contradicts another verse in scripture, you don't understand the scripture. Accept what is written and understand it, don't change it to make your doctrine work.
You do nothing but make claims without backing them up. It's impossible to take you seriously.
You have to change what is written to make your doctrine work. Why not try believing the Word of God and adjust your doctrine to what is written.

I understand it just fine. And I understand that scripture never teaches that both saved and lost people will be resurrected two different times in the future. That is ludicrous.
I think this comes down to the fact that your doctrine is not based on scripture.
Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 

Hobie

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Amils are always making Scripture say what they want it to say, instead of the straightforward written words. Are you still dead? Did you not experience the second birth? Why do you claim those with eternal life are still called "the dead"? Why are you still in your grave? Have you not been spiritually resurrected out of your grave? Obviously the church will not be in a grave at that last hour, as you imagine in your interpretation.

You do realize that God can reserve the right to redeem those at the GWT Judgment? God will judge them by their works, unless you missed that. Jesus was not wrong:

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

I ask again, are you saved by grace, through faith or by doing good?

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

"and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Why are you equating the gift of God to human works? Those of the second birth are not found at all at this GWT Judgment event.

Also this does not say resurrected. A resurrection is to eternal life, even by your interpretation of a first resurrection. Neither John 5 nor Revelation 20 specify a physical resurrection at all across the board for all. That is something you assume, in your "single verse eschatology". Making Scripture sat what you want it to say.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;"

Coming out of a grave would be impossible in your scenario or any scenario if there is no earth at all. Kinda hard to come out of something that does not even exist, yes?

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

You have to explain why the heaven and earth are gone, but the sea, grave, and death are still there. They are emptied out, not "resurrected from". A resurrection to physical life out of the state of death, would be receiving the second birth at that point. Not that any already had the second birth, waiting to be resurrected.

Was Jesus saying the grave included the sea and death, or just the grave was emptied out?

John says all in the grave are emptied out, not one left behind, and then John adds the sea and death to what Jesus said. How can you base all your eschatology on one single verse and avoid other verses that do not line up with your interpretation? Certainly you would have to tweak your interpretation to address other verses? Explain to me is the grave the same as sheol, or do you get to decide when it is just the earth, or just sheol? Then explain how there is an earth after you just said it no longer exists? Then explain why those of the second birth are dead in sheol. Why are they still tasting or experiencing death?

My interpretation of Revelation 20 would not be people coming out of their graves, as the earth no longer exists, but out of this literal place called sheol, that now exists separate from the earth and is itself cast into the LOF, either metaphorically or literally, does not really matter. And you still miss the point that in Revelation 19, people are still physically alive, not in their graves symbolically fighting against the Lamb. According to you, all should be physically dead already. Not even a rapture could occur in your "one verse scenario", because they all have to be in a grave or sheol.

You claim we ignore John 5:28. You ignore John 5:25 where the hour already is for those of the second birth. None of the redeemed, who have experienced the second birth, can be honestly included in John 5:28.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

And, YES!, God will still redeem some at that last single hour after heaven and earth no longer exist. God is merciful and gracious, and will still accept a "yes, i accept the gift of salvation", at that GWT Judgment event, as an answer.

Remember heaven and earth will pass away, but the Word will never pass away, and even then redemption is extended, based on the Word of God, and not physical creation, or the lack thereof.
I don't think anyone will be on earth when it melts from the heat, so no one will be saved at that point..
 

Spiritual Israelite

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No you are not. You think it is better to CHANGE one scripture, so it does not disagree with the other scripture. I think it is better to UNDERSTAND how both scriptures work perfectly as they are written.

In Danile 12 when MANY of them that sleep in the ground are raised, we are given clarification that this scripture is talking about the people of Daniel. We are also told that this event occurs it the time of the Great Tribulation, and from Matthew 24 we can tell the event occurs IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The scripture is perfect and does not need you to change the words to make it work. The best course of action is to understand what is written.
You are changing John 5:28-29 to make it fit your doctrine. Jesus said that ALL of the dead will be resurrected in the same hour that He said is coming. You change that to only SOME of the dead being resurrected when that hour comes.

If you think a verse of scripture contradicts another verse in scripture, you don't understand the scripture. Accept what is written and understand it, don't change it to make your doctrine work.
LOL. You don't even want to look at the scriptures that your interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-17 contradicts. You'd rather just ignore those scriptures entirely or change them to make them say what you want them to say. Your reckless approach to interpreting scripture doesn't work.

You have to change what is written to make your doctrine work.
That is exactly what you do with passages like John 4:19-24, John 5:28-29 and Hebrews 8-10.

Why not try believing the Word of God and adjust your doctrine to what is written.
I do. You need to try that.

I think this comes down to the fact that your doctrine is not based on scripture.
You say this, but then are too cowardly to even attempt to explain how your interpretations of passages like Daniel 12:2 and Zechariah 14:16-17 can be reconciled with other scriptures like John 4:19-24, John 5:28-29 and Hebrews 8-10. You interpret the NT in light of the OT when it should be the other way around.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Why was this thread moved to …
No idea. In your original post you summed up what you said by saying "All the scriptures agree there is no resurrection of the dead or the living in Christ until “the last day,”and at “the last trump.”. How is that unorthodox? Scripture is clear that the dead in Christ will be resurrected on the last day (John 6:40) and at "the last trump" (1 Cor 15:51-52). Nothing unorthodox about that at all.

I don't know how to contact anyone to get the thread moved back to where it was, so I'm going to report the original post and ask them to move it back to the eschatology forum. I was able to get a thread that was in the wrong forum moved that way before.
 

Timtofly

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When you are reading Revelation 13 an 14 you are back in the 1st 6 seal. When you are reading the 1st 6 seals you are reading the events of Matthew 24.
So the 3rd woe is part of the first 4 Seals along with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet at the beginning of the Seals?

You must be one of those who think the first Seal, first Trumpet, first Thunder, and first vial of God's wrath, all happen in the same instant? Then the second event of each type happens sometime later? So when is the resting a little while happening, during the latter events? Except you have the 7th Trumpet happening first, before anything, along with the 3rd woe, prior to everything else.

This is Scripture, the 7th Trumpet declares that Jesus is now King over all nation's, and definitely already on earth.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Are you saying this happens back in the first Seals? Because the third woe is not Jesus declared King of the world. The third woe is this:

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

The short time is described in Revelation 13. You then say that actually happened at the first Seal, to be your great tribulation?

Revelation 14 ends the week of the days of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:6-7

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, are finally completed. Revelation 14 is that final end. Then you put the end of the 70 weeks before Jesus is even on the earth as Prince?

How does all this time travel working out for you, since you dismiss the progressive chronological order of the final harvest. That being the church is removed at the 5th Seal. Then Jesus as Prince, is sitting in Judgment over His people during the first 6 Trumpets. Then the rest of the nations are gathered per Matthew 13, during the 7 Thunders. Then the 7th Trumpet declares the harvest is over, and Jesus is the 7th Kingdom throughout the Day of the Lord, a thousand years per 2 Peter 3.

I am not saying how long Jesus is going to be on the earth between the Second Coming and the 7th Trumpet. A day, a week, a month, a year, longer? No one knows, because no one knows when the Second Coming happens, but the time is shortened, meaning it will not last 3.5 years. John never put those events onto a timeline like many here have attempted. But John never went back in time either and started overlapping events, like many want to do. The coming of the Day of the Lord is the return of the Prince to come, with a baptism of fire: Matthew 3:11-12

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The baptism of the Holy Ghost was the first coming as Messiah. As Prince, Jesus will burn up the works of man, per 2 Peter 3:10. That is the Second Coming, the 6th Seal event. That is the coming of the Day of the Lord. But the Day of Lord, itself is the Millennial Kingdom.
 

Timtofly

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The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

You might check what happens at the 6th seal.
The heavens will roll back as a scroll, and all the works on earth will be burned up, at the 6th Seal.

Along with that, Zechariah 14 says the geography of the earth will change as echoed here: Revelation 6:14-15

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

The great tribulation is about to come down on them, and there is no escaping. Not even by physical death per the 5th Trumpet:

"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

You don't think, that when the heavens roll back as a scroll, that is symbolic of the heavens passing away as all that we know and understand will be dissolved in this baptism of fire, Jesus brings at the Second Coming?

Once again:

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

How many times do you think everything burns up?
 

Timtofly

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No, that's not what I'm saying. You have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever. I very cleary have said many times that Jesus Himself is the firstfruits and that means He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. You have nothing to offer this forum except for misrepresenting everything you read.
You are misrepresenting Paul:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

This clearly states all die in Adam but made alive in their order: 1) the firstfruits, 2) those at the Second Coming, 3) then cometh the end.


The order is the Cross, the Second Coming, and after the 7th Kingdom has enjoyed a thousand years on current earth. Creation is returned to God made fully alive.

You disregard the point, "in their own order" they are made alive after being made dead in Adam.

Then you place Christ into that order, instead of recognizing those made alive at the Cross, who all came out of their graves as the firstfruits.

I am not disregarding the prior verse:

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."

This explains how there can even be firstfruits, because of Jesus being made sin for us: 2 Corinthians 5:19-21

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

But Jesus did not need to be made alive, as that was God reconciling the world unto Himself. Paul places Christ as the firstfruits, because the firstfruits made alive at the Cross were in Christ as firstfruits the same time God was reconciling the world unto Himself.

There were still firstfruits, because Paul points that out as well as Matthew in 27:52-53

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Ephesians 4:8-10

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things."

Paul tells us that many were made alive in the phrase "led captivity captive". They never returned to their graves as it was a permanent position of being made alive. Jesus ascended Sunday morning and took them with Him to Paradise.

"And came out of the graves after his resurrection."

That was the final word on being made alive. Since they would never die again, they were taken to Paradise in those physical bodies as that is how Jesus ascended into heaven, physically. He did not leave His body on the earth, after the resurrection, to return later that day into a body left on the earth. Mary already saw Him physically alive. He was not an apparition walking around without a body, even though many interpret that is why Jesus could not be touched. Being made alive includes having a permanent incorruptible physical body. Jesus had not presented the sacrifice as the Lamb of God to the Father, and those firstfruits detailed in that sacrifice. So it was not until after Jesus returned from presenting that first order of humans made alive, when He could be touched.

So why do you keep posting with the implication that the OT redeemed are waiting for a future resurrection, and only Jesus was made alive that Sunday morning?

Those souls under the alter are not literal souls without bodies at the 5th Seal. They include those firstfruits that were presented to the Father as the firstfruits on resurrection Sunday. They and all since them have had that permanent incorruptible physical body, they all walked out of their graves with, just like Lazarus, was made alive after 4 days in Abraham's bosom. The same symbolism of a Lamb that was slain prior to the beginning of creation on that heavenly alter. They were slain out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, in Christ on the Cross, not that they were providing their own Salvation. The symbolism in Revelation 6, is showing they are covered by the Atonement of the Lamb. They are not literally under that physical alter. They are spiritually viewed as being slain and are the fruits of what Jesus accomplished on the Cross. Paul gives Christ all the credit, but then you deny the OT were those firstfruits. Slain in the context of Revelation 6 is not being martyred. It is being included with the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, as the firstfruits made alive in Christ the week of the Cross, not a future resurrection. They are no longer in dead flesh, but have been made alive as sons of God, with a permanent incorruptible physical body.
 

Timtofly

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All you can do is lie in response to Amil. You have no coherent arguments to offer. You have no discernment whatsoever. You never have anything of substance to say. No, Amils do not deny a future day of the Lord. We believe it will come in the future like a thief in the night and will result in the sudden destruction of all of Christ's enemies by fire and "they shall not escape" just as scripture teaches (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12).
I never said the dead would escape. You deny the Day of the Lord is the thousand year reign mentioned in Revelation 20.

Many "of Adam" alive on the earth will be changed and enjoy that Day of the Lord, as God in Christ is still reconciling the world to Himself even after the Second Coming.

Matthew 13 and 25 describes people being tossed physically alive into the LOF. Obviously the majority on earth will not escape that time of Judgment. But you are denying that Christ can still redeem a remnant after the Second Coming.
 

The Light

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So the 3rd woe is part of the first 4 Seals along with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet at the beginning of the Seals?
I have no Idea what you are talking about.

You must be one of those who think the first Seal, first Trumpet, first Thunder, and first vial of God's wrath, all happen in the same instant?
No.

Then the second event of each type happens sometime later?

No
So when is the resting a little while happening, during the latter events? Except you have the 7th Trumpet happening first, before anything, along with the 3rd woe, prior to everything else.
Again, no idea what you are saying.
This is Scripture, the 7th Trumpet declares that Jesus is now King over all nation's, and definitely already on earth.

Yes
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Are you saying this happens back in the first Seals?
No.

Because the third woe is not Jesus declared King of the world. The third woe is this:

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

The short time is described in Revelation 13. You then say that actually happened at the first Seal, to be your great tribulation?

No idea what you are talking about.
Revelation 14 ends the week of the days of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:6-7

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
No idea where you are getting this happens in Rev 14

When the 7th Trumpet stops sounding the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, are finally completed.
Yes.


Revelation 14 is that final end.
No. Rev 14 happens in the 1st six seals.

Then you put the end of the 70 weeks before Jesus is even on the earth as Prince?
I have no idea where you are drawing these incorrect conclusions.

How does all this time travel working out for you, since you dismiss the progressive chronological order of the final harvest.
I haven't. You are not understanding what you are reading. When the 7 trumpet sounds it over. Armageddon is already over. Christ has set up his kingdom on earth.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st 6 seals. You are getting another view with different information. When you are reading Revelation 15 and 16 you are in the 7th seal. It's simple. Revelation is written like Genesis 7. You get 3 views of the flood, but there is only one flood.

That being the church is removed at the 5th Seal.
No, the Church is removed before the seals opened.

Then Jesus as Prince, is sitting in Judgment over His people during the first 6 Trumpets. Then the rest of the nations are gathered per Matthew 13, during the 7 Thunders. Then the 7th Trumpet declares the harvest is over, and Jesus is the 7th Kingdom throughout the Day of the Lord, a thousand years per 2 Peter 3.

The 7th seal is the day of the Lord. The one year day of His wrath.
I am not saying how long Jesus is going to be on the earth between the Second Coming and the 7th Trumpet. A day, a week, a month, a year, longer? No one knows,
I know. Jesus is not going to be on earth between the second coming and the 7th trumpet. The second coming OCCURS AT THE 6TH SEAL. All go to heaven. Jesus is in heaven for the marriage supper. He does not go to the earth, He remains in the clouds

But the Day of Lord, itself is the Millennial Kingdom.
No............No.............No

The Day is the Lord is the one year day of His wrath.
 

The Light

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The heavens will roll back as a scroll, and all the works on earth will be burned up, at the 6th Seal.

Along with that, Zechariah 14 says the geography of the earth will change as echoed here: Revelation 6:14-15

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

The great tribulation is about to come down on them, and there is no escaping.
Tribulation is not the wrath of God.

The great tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal.........................IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..............what happens........The sun and moon are darkened and starts fall from heaven.

What happens at the 6th seal?...................the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

You should with the above information be able to conclude that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. Tribulation is NOT wrath.
 

Timtofly

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Do you agree with John that the seventh trumpet will signal the arrival of "the time of the dead, that they should be judged"? I do. When are the dead judged? Their judgment is written about in Revelation 20:11-15. You somehow have the dead being judged 1,000+ years after the seventh trumpet sounds, thereby making it so that the seventh trumpet announces something that won't even occur for another 1,000+ years? And that is supposed to make any sense?
You are missing the point that at the Second Coming, the dead are those spiritually dead but physically alive on the earth.

You are confusing them with the physically dead needing a resurrection. God can save those already dead, but the Second Coming is about judging those still physically alive.

Can you explain how Satan comes to earth after the 7th Trumpet if no one is still alive:

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

"And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The last 3 Trumpets are 5, 6, and 7, no?

The third woe is not that Jesus is declared King, nor a Second Coming. How can these be woes? Is the rapture you claim at the Second Coming, the 7th Trumpet, a woe?

The woe is Satan coming to earth, and people are still alive not resurrected from the dead and physically on the earth, for the 3rd woe.

And Satan is cast to earth after the 7th Trumpet has already started to sound.
 

Jack

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"When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?"

Any second now!
 

TribulationSigns

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"When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?"

Any second now!

Rev 20:4-6
  • And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
  • But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
  • Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
There are many Christians who believe that there will be some Christians who will be resurrected on the SECOND RESURRECTION which takes place on the last day when Christ returns. For example:

Dan 12:2
  • And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
And I understand it, as they base it on the same scriptures you do. But I hold to a different view and a different understanding of the text. My view is that Christians cannot have two resurrections from the dead. If so, they would have to be dead, resurrected, die again, and be resurrected again. It's confusion. First of all, Elect can't resurrect from the dead what has already been "resurrected from the dead," through the FIRST RESURRECTION in Christ. And we can't make something dead again that we've had an Oath made to us in the first resurrection that we can never die. Thus either our understanding is in error of the dead in Christ, or Christ made a mistake.

John 11:25-26
  • "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
  • And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"
I believe it. And if He's not talking about the physical death of the body, He has to be talking about our Spiritual existence with Him. My view is that either we believe we never die, or we change the whole tenor of the text. Christ being the first resurrection means there is no need for a second because we can't die in the true sense. We simply transfer, leaving the body of this death to go to the Spiritual realm of Heaven. Thus Christ will bring those who have died (speaking as a man) with Him when He comes again because they are already with him today in heaven. Also, note that it says "though he were dead, yet shall he live." In other words, Christ is saying the believers may have died in man's earthly vernacular, but from the heavenly perspective, he lives on and is not dead. Christ did NOT saying he's dead but He'll "live later", but even if you die, you shall be alive. Your body is dead, but in your spirit you are alive, living and reigning with Christ in heaven. It is because you have been born again with the Spirit of God...inside you.

2nd Corinthians 5:6-8
  • "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
  • (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
  • We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
For the Christian to be absent from the body in death is to be alive, present with the Lord and reigning together with him. But from man's perspective on earth (whom the scriptures are talking to) the person has died. From the true perspective, he's not dead but alive and reigning with Christ.

Revelation 20:4-5
  • "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
  • But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
The rest of "what" dead? Obviously, the dead who have died but did NOT have part in the first resurrection (ie. being born again or made alive ien Christ). Clearly some saved souls of the dead go to live and reign with the Lord (according to scripture), while the rest of the unsaved souls don't live again UNTIL the second resurrection when we read that they will be the only raised up to stand for judgment. There is NOTHIING "blessed and holy" about the Second Resurrection!

1st Thessalonians 4:13-14

  • "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
  • For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
Jesus died and was resurrected up to new life and so were the saints who BELIEVE in Him and took part of THAT FIRST RESURRECTION. Thus they cannot be dead in the sense that they are in the grave in a state of unconsciousness waiting for the second resurrection. They are already with Christ! And guess what, Christ will bring the dead (speaking as a man) back with him. Because "though they are dead, yet they live." Therefore, they are the "dead in Christ" who have "raised first" by having them come back with Christ at the Second Coming! Christ is talking to those of us on earth who speak of those who have departed as the dead. Because obviously you should know that NO ONE in Christ is dead. So He's not saying those who have died are actually dead/not-alive, because that contradicts other scriptures that clearly say that the dead in Christ both live, and that they that they never die. That's not a metaphor, they actually never die...just because they are BORN AGAIN! Notice it doesn't say the dead will be changed, but only those who remain and are alive will be changed in an instant. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of heaven, but those coming FROM heaven don't need to be changed! We have two options. Either there are no saints in heaven with spiritual bodies, or they have their spiritual being already because they are in heaven with Christ. We can't have it both ways.

The dead in Christ are those who are already in heaven with Christ and He will bring them down with Him at the Last Trump. And at the same time, those who are "alive and remain" will be changed and be able to go up to Christ and all those who have dead before us. The Rest of the dead - the unsaved people will be resurrected ON EARTH along with those UNSAVED PEOPLE who are also "alive and remain" will also change to spiritual bodies but remain on Earth WITNESS that rapture of the Saints and the rest of the saints coming down from Heaven with Christ. ALL people who have part of the SECOND RESURRECTION are going to the Lake of Fire on that dreadful day.
 

Timtofly

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I don't think anyone will be on earth when it melts from the heat, so no one will be saved at that point..
No verse says the earth melts. That is a non-scriptural interpretation.

The elements melt / dissolve, yes. That is in regards to heaven. In regards to the earth, that is the works of man that are dissolved.

John the Baptist said unquenchable fire. The LOF is formed at the 6th Seal, at the Second Coming, and this baptism of fire causes heaven to be rolled back as a scroll, and all the works on earth are burned up, and the LOF is the result, that will never go away.

Peter likens this event to the Flood. Prior to the Flood, there were not huge oceans. The land was above the water, and water was above the sky. The oceans were the result. At the Second Coming it will be a Flood of Fire, not water. The LOF will be the result. No one will understand, until it actually happens. No one understood what rain was prior to the Flood. No one will fully grasp the LOF until the Second Coming.
 

Timtofly

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You are changing John 5:28-29 to make it fit your doctrine. Jesus said that ALL of the dead will be resurrected in the same hour that He said is coming. You change that to only SOME of the dead being resurrected when that hour comes.
When you say all the dead, you are changing Jesus' words and intent, also.

Jesus said all those in their graves.

You then insert "all the dead" from all time.

Jesus is not implying all the dead from all time will still be in their graves. You are inferring that onto the text. In fact Jesus covered the dead in verse 25:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

The dead could already live, and even come out of their graves, as Lazarus was the prime example, that that could happen then, not some future singular hour.

Daniel said many would come out of their graves at one point, inferring that some had already come out at various times, thus not all at one single time.

The point being none would be left in their gaves at that last hour. So all in their graves would come forth, but not all the dead, as many were already resurrected thousands of years earlier.


All the OT redeemed, waiting in Abraham's bosom, left their graves, when Jesus declared, "It is finished". Matthew said many appeared in Jerusalem. Not all the OT redeemed appeared in Jerusalem, but all, over the entire earth came out of their graves and all ascended on Sunday morning into Paradise. Lazarus came out prior to the Cross, to set an example, and would have also ascended Sunday morning.

The OT redeemed were many, but not all the dead. All the redeemed were resurrected. In Revelation 20:4 all the beheaded were resurrected, but still not all the dead as the rest had to wait another 1000 years after waiting over 2000 years since the Cross. Many had waited for thousands of years prior to the Cross.

All still in their graves have to wait until John 5:28. Those who already left their graves are included in the dead who hear Jesus calling them, and have been resurrected / made alive already.

Daniel is stating either of 2 points:

1. Many will still be able to be redeemed at the very end.

2. Daniel is being vague, and cannot see some resurrected thousands of years earlier, because Daniel was never explaining the Cross, nor the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus on the earth, so does not explicitly address those points.

Daniel was not declaring doctrine, either way.

Thus Daniel is not explicitly saying all, but saying many, as that was a Holy Spirit thought, and not some point of doctrine or eschatology, that many here teach. Obviously all that are still in their graves will come forth. Some even to everlasting life, which you all seem to think goes against a second chance, at the last moment unto redemption. Can you provide a verse that explicitly claims one cannot be redeemed after thousands, even up to 6000 years after being in sheol?

Even your view contradicts Scripture. You have people as souls in heaven, and then their body is still them in the grave on earth. How can they be two places at once? Either one is made alive in heaven or still in their grave, not in heaven. No one is two places at the same time. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. Obviously one form is physical and one spiritual. The spiritual dead bury their physical dead. A redeemed person in heaven is neither spiritually dead, nor physically dead, as the hour has already come that they were made eternally alive. The redeemed never taste death, nor can they be in their graves waiting for a resurrection. Only spiritually dead people are placed physically in the grave awaiting a resurrection. And some of those will obtain eternal life at the GWT, because that is what Daniel inferred. Daniel could not infer that the redeemed would still be dead, so he pointed out many, and not all would need a resurrection.

Matthew 8:22

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead."

Luke 9:60

"Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God."

John 8:51

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."

"Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death."

Jesus is not saying they will not physically die. He is saying that physical death is not tasting death as pointed out by Job and Solomon who were of the philosophy that death was final and absolute. Those in the grave are spiritually dead and physically dead, they still taste death. Those in Paradise are neither spiritually dead nor physically dead because they are not currently tasting the result of physical death. They are just not physically on the earth. All tasted spiritual death, because that is the state from physical birth. No one was ever spiritually alive prior to physical conception. So not tasting spiritual death is impossible. Jesus was referring to tasting physical death. That means the soul was never without a physical body. You deny the teaching of Jesus and declare those in heaven are tasting physical death, by not having a physical body.

Jesus is not talking about spiritual death that some would avoid, because no human can avoid that. You complain about exegesis, and then expect people to read your mind when verses can either be referring to a spiritual state or a physical state.

A soul in sheol is not receiving spiritual death. That was the condition from conception. The soul in sheol is both physically and spiritually dead. What you miss is that those in Paradise are neither spiritually dead nor physically dead. You condemn those in Paradise to the latter state. If they are physically alive, they would have a physical body. If they never tasted death as Jesus explicitly taught, then they would have a physical body. Those already in Paradise, are not included in Daniel 12. They are not tasting physical death, and not in a grave, in the dust, waiting, as you infer, being two places at the same time, and at the Second Coming the soul meets up with the body. One is either in the dust or in Paradise. A body in the dust is not a soul waiting in sheol, nor a soul physically clothed in Paradise. The former body returns to dust and is dissolved. That body is not changed, ever. The soul changes physical bodies like a set of clothes. Even Paul declares that as being clothed upon in several places.

Jesus took His physical body to heaven which set the precedent that all in heaven were able to take their body as well. Those alive at the Second Coming don't take this body to heaven. They take the incorruptible body like the ones from heaven already have.
 

Timtofly

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No idea where you are getting this happens in Rev 14
Because Revelation 14 is still describing the 7th Trumpet. That is the only event being described from Revelation 10 after the 7 Thunders to Revelation 19.

You claim John traveled back in time to the opening of the first few Seals.

The third woe is attached to the 7th Trumpet. That woe is Satan cast to the earth and being the 8th world kingdom, called mystery Babylon, based in Jerusalem, on the throne Jesus was sitting on, when the 7th Trumpet sounded.

Revelation 14 has nothing to do with the Seals whatsoever.