There is only one true church

[amigo de christo]

AGREE


What came first, the chicken or the egg?

WHY the CHICKEN DID . cause GOD created THE ANIMALS , the trees
and etc and said MULTIPLY .
as far as which came first the chicken or the egg
i have another question . WHICH COMES FIRST the HORSE or THE CART .
cause todays christendom under this false lovey do crap
has put the CART before the HORSE and strapped the harness on itself and its trying to pull the both .

 

[PinSeeker]

Just cause GOD is sovereign dont mean HE is well pleased with them at all my friend .

I didn't say or imply such. But sure; agree... Not at all sure why you felt compelled to tell me that...

IF we love we better start correcting the brethren . its not a sin or juding or condemning to correct one in sin .
it aint loving to let them stay in sin and just hug and try and get along .
pretty darn sad when i have to say things so simple that one would have thought a six year old could grasp .
WE bess bible up.

LOL! Well okay! :)

cause many within christendom itself
if men like paul , james , jude , john , and EVEN CHRIST HIMSELF
entered into them churches , THEY WOULD SCREAM away with you judgmental haters
you all dont know jesus ,god or love . aint that something .

Hm. Who's judging who, Amigo? :)

THEY WOULD TELL JESUS he DONT KNOW JESUS .

Yes, that would be bad... :)

that is a fact buddy .

My name is not buddy. :)

Grace and peace to you, Amigo.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Whose bible? Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12 are pretty clear that the gifts of the Spirit are actually gifts of the Spirit (God)...
Hmmm... so two things:

Straw man fallacy. God freely gives His gifts to all those who are disposed to receive them. I should have been more clear. The Bible is a gift to humanity.

1. You say modern science was born in the Catholic Church, that Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market economics, the Catholic Church invented the university, that western law grew out of Church canon law, and that the Catholic Church humanized the West ~ among other ridiculous things, I'm sure ~ but that Catholics "don't claim credit" for His gifts?​

WHOA!!! I didn't write the book. You are commenting on a summary of a summary with a list of topics written by a Ph.D. author who exposes the many historical myths found on this forum, and you are complaining about a book you haven't read???

​

2. And you only accuse others of snarky remarks, gaslighting, "carnal mind" ad nauseum, even while issuing this certificate of hypocrisy and asking, rhetorically, "Do you have difficulty understanding my signature?"​

Hmmm... My hypocrisy and idolatry detectors are going crazy... <smile>

Oh, pleeeze, gimmie a break. If you are going to rush to the defense if arrogant, ignorant anti-Catholic bigots, you'll be next to be admitted to the ICU. You are saying Catholics have no right to defend ourselves against raw hate and lies.

Well, as I said to David above, one great day it will no longer be so. There will be no division, even no real disagreement, but perfect unity ~ because there will be no more sin, and we will all... Well, again, from 1 John 3:2, "What we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is" (1 John 3:2). So... "Come, Lord Jesus!" (Revelation 22:20).

Grace and peace to you, JT.

No one can put a staff member on ignore. And it's evident you don't understand my signature.
Don't attack my beloved beliefs with garden variety insults and we'll get along just fine.

 

[David in NJ]

Straw man fallacy. God freely gives His gifts to all those who are disposed to receive them. I should have been more clear. The Bible is a gift to humanity.

WHOA!!! I didn't write the book. You are commenting on a summary of a summary with a list of topics written by a Ph.D auhor who exposes the many historical myths found on this forum, and you are complaining about a book you haven't read???

Oh, pleeeze, gimmie a break. If you are going to rush to the defense if arrogant, ignorant anti-Catholic bigots, you'll be next to be admitted to the ICU. You are saying Catholics have no right to defend ourselves against raw hate and lies.

No one can put a staff member on ignore.

Keep this at the forefront of your mind:
#1 - JESUS alone SAVES us
#2 - JESUS knows the hearts of all men.
#3 - JESUS only accepts those catholics(and protestants) who love Him and have been Born-Again by the Spirit of God
#4 - JESUS rejects the idolatry of the RCC
#5 - JESUS will reject any catholic(or protestant) that places their trust in idols/statues/religious works that cannot save anyone
#6 - Mary cannot save anyone
#7 - JESUS alone SAVES us

 

[PinSeeker]

Straw man fallacy.

Pish. Far from it; straight Scripture, actually, in reference to Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12. I mean, you can call it that, I guess, but we're talking about something that is God-breathed, so I would advise against it. <smile>

God freely gives His gifts to all those who are disposed to receive them.

"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills." [1 Corinthians 12:4-11]​

Might be a bit interesting to know what you mean by "those who are disposed to receive them"... If you mean that in the same sense as Paul's last sentence above, or also what Paul says in Ephesians 2 about being born again and created for good works, then okay, but otherwise... <smile>

I should have been more clear.

I agree. :)

The Bible is a gift to humanity.

Hmmm, okay, I agree, but I would call it much more than that, really.

WHOA!!! I didn't write the book. You are commenting on a summary of a summary with a list of topics written by a Ph.D. author who exposes the many historical myths found on this forum, and you are complaining about a book you haven't read???

Well I don't really care who or what your source was, JT. My impression was that you were making statements of supposed fact, and my response was to you. "Complaining"...? No, not me... Complaining about what? There was certainly no complaint in what I said. Calling something ridiculous can't be construed as any kind of "complaint"...

Oh, pleeeze, gimmie a break.

Okay. As long as it's not a left to right break. I'd rather it be right to left... <smile>

If you are going to rush to the defense if arrogant, ignorant anti-Catholic bigots...

Not doing that... <smile>

You are saying Catholics have no right to defend ourselves against raw hate and lies.

Nope... <smile>

No one can put a staff member on ignore.

Okay. Relevance? Who said anything about putting anybody on ignore?

And it's evident you don't understand my signature.

I didn't pay any attention to your signature. No idea what it is. <smile>

Ah, okay, yes, out of respect, I did go back and look at your signature. To which I would quote Peter, who quotes Isaiah:

"All flesh is grass, and all its beauty is like the flower of the field. The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the Lord blows on it; surely the people are grass. The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever."​

[Isaiah 40:7-8; 1 Peter 1:24-25]​

Don't attack my beloved beliefs with garden variety insults and we'll get along just fine.

Ah, your "beloved beliefs"... Well, it's very possible to idolize anything, JT, even beliefs. Which speaks to what I said a couple of posts ago, although I can't remember if I said anything of the sort to you before now or not. <smile> I just call 'em as I see 'em, man. I'm not really worried about getting along with anybody, really, to be honest. And on that note, I'll just say that as long as any exchange I engage in is very honest on both ends, I'm perfectly fine with that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

GOD IS SOVEREIGN . but them churches are in deadly dire danger of hells fire .
Just cause GOD is sovereign dont mean HE is well pleased with them at all my friend .
IF we love we better start correcting the brethren . its not a sin or juding or condeming to correct one in sin .
it aint loving to let them stay in sin and just hug and try and get along .
pretty darn sad when i have to say things so simple that one would have thought a six year old could grasp .
WE bess bible up . cause many within christendom itself
if men like paul , james , jude , john , and EVEN CHRIST HIMSELF
entered into them churches , THEY WOULD SCREAM away with you judgmental haters
you all dont know jesus ,god or love . aint that something .
THEY WOULD TELL JESUS he DONT KNOW JESUS . that is a fact buddy .

Yes, God is sovereign, but Scott Hahn has a different take on judgement. I don't see God like the Norse god, a big man with a long gray beard firing lightening bolts on everybody he doesn't like. I think you would agree God is a loving Father. IMHO, Scott Hahn has the gift of teaching. Even as a former anti-Catholic, he never bashes Protestants, or non-Catholic Christians. The challenge is to take heed of the few simple things he says, and not miss out on the wealth that God has given him. (property of the Church, not his own)



1 Cor. 1:23- Paul preaches a Christ crucified, not just risen. Catholic spirituality focuses on the sacrifice of Christ which is the only means to the resurrection. This is why Catholic churches have crucifixes with the corpus of Jesus affixed to them. Many Protestant churches no longer display the corpus of Jesus (only an empty cross). Thus, they only preach a Christ risen, not crucified.

1 Cor. 2:2 – Paul preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified. While the cross was the scandal of scandals, and is viewed by the non-Christian eye as defeat, Catholic spirituality has always exalted the paradox of the cross as the true tree of life and our means to salvation.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well. If we unite our sufferings with His, we will be comforted by Him.
by John Salsa, read more here







.

 

[Marvelloustime]

GOD IS SOVEREIGN . but them churches are in deadly dire danger of hells fire .
Just cause GOD is sovereign dont mean HE is well pleased with them at all my friend .
IF we love we better start correcting the brethren . its not a sin or juding or condeming to correct one in sin .
it aint loving to let them stay in sin and just hug and try and get along .
pretty darn sad when i have to say things so simple that one would have thought a six year old could grasp .
WE bess bible up . cause many within christendom itself
if men like paul , james , jude , john , and EVEN CHRIST HIMSELF
entered into them churches , THEY WOULD SCREAM away with you judgmental haters
you all dont know jesus ,god or love . aint that something .
THEY WOULD TELL JESUS he DONT KNOW JESUS . that is a fact buddy .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, God is sovereign, but Scott Hahn has a different take on judgement. I don't see God like the Norse god, a big man with a long gray beard firing lightening bolts on everybody he doesn't like. I think you would agree God is a loving Father. IMHO, Scott Hahn has the gift of teaching. Even as a former anti-Catholic, he never bashes Protestants, or non-Catholic Christians. The challenge is to take heed of the few simple things he says, and not miss out on the wealth that God has given him. (property of the Church, not his own)

View attachment 48880

1 Cor. 1:23- Paul preaches a Christ crucified, not just risen. Catholic spirituality focuses on the sacrifice of Christ which is the only means to the resurrection. This is why Catholic churches have crucifixes with the corpus of Jesus affixed to them. Many Protestant churches no longer display the corpus of Jesus (only an empty cross). Thus, they only preach a Christ risen, not crucified.

1 Cor. 2:2 – Paul preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified. While the cross was the scandal of scandals, and is viewed by the non-Christian eye as defeat, Catholic spirituality has always exalted the paradox of the cross as the true tree of life and our means to salvation.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well. If we unite our sufferings with His, we will be comforted by Him.
by John Salsa, read more here

View attachment 48883

View attachment 48884



.View attachment 48885


View attachment 48886

GOD is love . so why is the catholic and prostestant realm offer up false love to a dead world .
saying junk like we and muslims and others serve the same GOD
implying that it is not necessary to even BELIEVE ON JESUS AS the CHRIST .
I been watching them places get worse and worse . They do all to simpy UNIFY
the faiths and the false religoins to merge as one , and sit under the harlot together as one .
I aint buying this false love broad road sin accepting lie .
Correction is a dire must within the churches . leaven has taken them DOWN cause it was left uncorrected .

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, God is sovereign, but Scott Hahn has a different take on judgement. I don't see God like the Norse god, a big man with a long gray beard firing lightening bolts on everybody he doesn't like. I think you would agree God is a loving Father. IMHO, Scott Hahn has the gift of teaching. Even as a former anti-Catholic, he never bashes Protestants, or non-Catholic Christians. The challenge is to take heed of the few simple things he says, and not miss out on the wealth that God has given him. (property of the Church, not his own)

View attachment 48880

1 Cor. 1:23- Paul preaches a Christ crucified, not just risen. Catholic spirituality focuses on the sacrifice of Christ which is the only means to the resurrection. This is why Catholic churches have crucifixes with the corpus of Jesus affixed to them. Many Protestant churches no longer display the corpus of Jesus (only an empty cross). Thus, they only preach a Christ risen, not crucified.

1 Cor. 2:2 – Paul preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified. While the cross was the scandal of scandals, and is viewed by the non-Christian eye as defeat, Catholic spirituality has always exalted the paradox of the cross as the true tree of life and our means to salvation.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well. If we unite our sufferings with His, we will be comforted by Him.
by John Salsa, read more here

View attachment 48883

View attachment 48884



.View attachment 48885


View attachment 48886

I seen you put a like on that .
WELLL do remember that the next time anyone who calls themselves a believer
sitting in your church is in SIN and you just decide to try and hug and get along and say NUTTING to him or her
about their sin . cause that is hate not love . Time to correct all sin and all error within the church .
And its high time to actually start preaching the one true gospel and not this other so callled fake social justice all inclusive one
that wont be saving squat . UNBELIEF is SIN as are sins sin . SO remember that the next time
some man in a big fancy hat hollers that christains , muslims and all so called religoins
be finding thier own way to GOD . What a hoax . but many sit under such men .

 

[Marvelloustime]

View attachment 48893
I seen you put a like on that .
WELLL do remember that the next time anyone who calls themselves a believer
sitting in your church is in SIN and you just decide to try and hug and get along and say NUTTING to him or her
about their sin . cause that is hate not love . Time to correct all sin and all error within the church .
And its high time to actually start preaching the one true gospel and not this other so callled fake social justice all inclusive one
that wont be saving squat . UNBELIEF is SIN as are sins sin . SO remember that the next time
some man in a big fancy hate hollers that christains , muslims and all so called religoins
be finding thier own way to GOD . What a hoax . but many sit under such men .

Brother is spotted.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, God is sovereign, but Scott Hahn has a different take on judgement. I don't see God like the Norse god, a big man with a long gray beard firing lightening bolts on everybody he doesn't like. I think you would agree God is a loving Father. IMHO, Scott Hahn has the gift of teaching. Even as a former anti-Catholic, he never bashes Protestants, or non-Catholic Christians. The challenge is to take heed of the few simple things he says, and not miss out on the wealth that God has given him. (property of the Church, not his own)

View attachment 48880

1 Cor. 1:23- Paul preaches a Christ crucified, not just risen. Catholic spirituality focuses on the sacrifice of Christ which is the only means to the resurrection. This is why Catholic churches have crucifixes with the corpus of Jesus affixed to them. Many Protestant churches no longer display the corpus of Jesus (only an empty cross). Thus, they only preach a Christ risen, not crucified.

1 Cor. 2:2 – Paul preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified. While the cross was the scandal of scandals, and is viewed by the non-Christian eye as defeat, Catholic spirituality has always exalted the paradox of the cross as the true tree of life and our means to salvation.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well. If we unite our sufferings with His, we will be comforted by Him.
by John Salsa, read more here

View attachment 48883

View attachment 48884



.View attachment 48885


View attachment 48886

The JOY of the LORD is my strength .
yet many within christendome seem to joy in a god and a christ that accepts their sin . THAT AINT THE JOY OF THE LORD
that is the joy of finding a god who accepts their sin . OOOPS .
we really need to bible up .

 

[amigo de christo]

Joy is good if it cometh of GOD and is upon GOD .
but joy that comeths from another god and rejoices the heart of the one in sin
as it implies to them that their sin is not sin , That be the devil in disguise that one be joying and rejocing in my friends .
And many now rejoice in a god of love , and not RATHER IN THE GOD WHO IS LOVE .
The LOVE OF GOD does not rejoice in inquity , ONLY IN TRUTH .
their joy , rejoices in a lie and in certain sins .
They beleive they are free and have freedom and yet know not
they are slaves to sin and to a god who has simply decieving them by their own fleshly hearts desire .
Not looking good friends .

 

[amigo de christo]

Keep this at the forefront of your mind:
#1 - JESUS alone SAVES us
#2 - JESUS knows the hearts of all men.
#3 - JESUS only accepts those catholics(and protestants) who love Him and have been Born-Again by the Spirit of God
#4 - JESUS rejects the idolatry of the RCC
#5 - JESUS will reject any catholic(or protestant) that places their trust in idols/statues/religious works that cannot save anyone
#6 - Mary cannot save anyone
#7 - JESUS alone SAVES us

And an very important number 8.
GET In the bible , stay in the bible and learn it well
cause if ones jesus contradicts THAT JESUS , then their jesus AINT JESUS THE CHRIST .
Thanks for the reminders my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

Schwester ist hier .

 

[amigo de christo]

The LORD is worthy of all honor , glory and praise .
So honor the LORD in all that we do and say . Lift those hands and praise the glorious LORD .
Be not as many who know not what they worship .
LEARN OF HIM . open the bible and enjoy it daily , learn and grow .
The Spirit leads us into all TRUTH . not into deception .

 

[Marvelloustime]

The LORD is worthy of all honor , glory and praise .
So honor the LORD in all that we do and say . Lift those hands and praise the glorious LORD .
Be not as many who know not what they worship .
LEARN OF HIM . open the bible and enjoy it daily , learn and grow .
The Spirit leads us into all TRUTH . not into deception .

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

GOD is love . so why is the catholic and prostestant realm offer up false love to a dead world .

Calm down. There are plenty of good, holy Protestants and Catholics that outshine the bad ones. Judging whole communities based on the ones who don't live by it's precepts is like sayin aspirin doesn't help headaches for those who don't take it. It's unfair and irrational.

saying junk like we and muslims and others serve the same GOD

It is junk because no Catholic ever said that. Muslims SAY they worship the God of Abraham, but not the same way you and I do. Stop blaming the Church for your misconceptions you proudly cling on to.

implying that it is not necessary to even BELIEVE ON JESUS AS the CHRIST .

So if a person never heard the Gospel through no fault of their own, and were kind to others, are all going to hell??? That's a monster god, not a loving Father. Nobody said it is not necessary to believe on Jesus as the Christ. You shouldn't believe the lies the satan owned media claims the pope said.

the faiths and the false religoins to merge as one , and sit under the harlot together as one .I aint buying this false love broad road sin accepting lie .
Correction is a dire must within the churches . leaven has taken them DOWN cause it was left uncorrected .

Do you think, that Jesus, who prayed to the Father, that we may be one as He is one with the Father, is a global conspirator?
Your mind is so poisoned by the psychotic ramblings of "Bible Christian" hate cults, you can't think straight.
Either that, or you are acting out a painful childhood, blaming a symbol of an abusive or non-existent father: institutional churches.
You don't even have a church or educated pastor who can guide you. What I see in your posts is anger.

 

[amigo de christo]

Calm down. There are plenty of good, holy Protestants and Catholics that outshine the bad ones. Judging whole communities based on the ones who don't live by it's precepts is like sayin aspirin doesn't help headaches for those who don't take it. It's unfair and irrational.

It is junk because no Catholic ever said that. Muslims SAY they worship the God of Abraham, but not the same way you and I do. Stop blaming the Church for your misconceptions you proudly cling on to.

So if a person never heard the Gospel through no fault of their own, and were kind to others, are all going to hell??? That's a monster god, not a loving Father. Nobody said it is not necessary to believe on Jesus as the Christ. You shouldn't believe the lies the satan owned media claims the pope said.

Do you think, that Jesus, who prayed to the Father, that we may be one as He is one with the Father, is a global conspirator?
Your mind is so poisoned by the psychotic ramblings of "Bible Christian" hate cults, you can't think straight.
Either that, or you are acting out a painful childhood, blaming a symbol of an abusive or non-existent father: institutional churches.
You don't even have a church or educated pastor who can guide you. What I see in your posts is anger.

yeah right my dear friend .
I seen what your pope said and i watched the vidoe of him saying this .
AND guess what , I got it from the catholic site itself .
And guess what the protestant realm is as bad as the CC concering this .
ITS bible time .
I even have mild arthritis , its not heavy , the pages are not hard to turn . OPEN and read it for YOU .
Stop heeding men who say we have to learn it through THEM . that was a pharce long sold unto the masses .
READ it for you .
In this day and age though i am compelled to warn folks who might have allergies
to make sure they wear a mask as they turned them DUST FILLED pages . cause most dont even read it
it sits on a shelf collecting dust .
THEy had rather heed men who twist stuff .

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

This past weekend, a Calvinist explained to me that she left the Methodists after concluding that they weren’t a church, since they didn’t preach the pure word of God. To Catholic ears, this sort of claim can sound pretty strange, so I wanted to explain what Calvinists mean by this, and why it’s wrong.

I. What’s Meant
In the Sixteenth Century, the Reformers faced a serious problem. They believed, as John Calvin wrote in Book IV, Chapter I of Institutes of the Christian Religion, that “beyond the pale of the Church no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for.” Since Calvin and others were breaking away from the visible Church, this doctrine posed a serious hurdle. After all, they appeared to be condemning themselves with their own words.

So what they did is redefine what “Church” means. The clearest example of this is from the Dutch Calvinist Belgic Confession (1567):

​

The true church can be recognized if it has the following marks: The church engages in the pure preaching of the gospel; it makes use of the pure administration of the sacraments as Christ instituted them; it practices church discipline for correcting faults. In short, it governs itself according to the pure Word of God, rejecting all things contrary to it and holding Jesus Christ as the only Head. By these marks one can be assured of recognizing the true church– and no one ought to be separated from it.

So it’s only the true Church if the preaching of the Gospel and administration of sacraments are pure, and church discipline is used for correcting faults. Calvin only believed in two marks of the Church: “the preaching of the word and the observance of the sacraments.” He argued that to lose these two marks would “destroy the true and genuine distinction of the Church”:

There is nothing on which Satan is more intent than to destroy and efface one or both of them – at one time to delete and abolish these marks, and thereby destroy the true and genuine distinction of the Church; at another, to bring them into contempt, and so hurry us into open revolt from the Church. To his wiles it was owing that for several ages the pure preaching of the word disappeared, and now, with the same dishonest aim, he labours to overthrow the ministry, which, however, Christ has so ordered in his Church, that if it is removed the whole edifice must fall.

Thus, he argued, Catholicism wasn’t the true Church, because the Sacraments and preaching were all wrong. In the 1559 French Confession of Faith (PDF), he put it like this:

Therefore we condemn the papal assemblies, as the pure Word of God is banished from them, their sacraments are corrupted, or falsified, or destroyed, and all superstitions and idolatries are in them.

Thus, schism from the visible Church was not only permissible, but necessary, since the Church had (according to Calvin) stopped being part of the true Church.

II. Why It’s Wrong
Catholics will readily agree that good preaching, the proper administration of the Sacraments, and Church discipline are important parts of the life of the Church. A church that fails to do these things fails the flock in important ways. But here’s the important caveat: a church that fails in these ways doesn’t cease to be part of the Church. We can see this clearly from Scripture. In Revelation 2-3, Jesus delivers a message through St. John to the seven churches of Asia Minor (see Rev. 1:17-20). In Revelation 2:12-17, we hear this message to the Church in Pergamum:

“To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.

Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality. Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”

In other words, the Church in Pergamum both (1) failed to enforce Church discipline (as did the Church in Thyatira — see Rev. 2:20), and (2) apparently permitted heretical (Nicolatan) teachings.

That is, it failed to meet two of the standards that the Belgic confession claims are basic marks of the Church. And yet Jesus still calls it a church. He even says that despite these problems, the local church (as a whole) has remained “true to My Name.” (Rev. 2:13).

So plainly, while the failure to enforce Church discipline, and to ensure that heresy isn’t preached are important tasks of the Church (Jesus is rebuking them for these failures, after all), they don’t render the Church not the Church. And if that’s true on the local level, it’s certainly true on the global.
continued...

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

epilogue from post #499:

III. The True Marks of the Church, And Why They Matter
The (Calvinist) Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) acknowledges that:

Since the fourth century, Christians, including the Reformers, have used the Nicene Creed as a confession of faith. Worshippers confess that they believe one holy catholic and apostolic church. However, since many sects claim the name “church,” the Reformers asked what scripturally defined marks distinguish true and false churches? How can we identify where the true church of God is present? The Reformers are clear: Where the word of God is truly preached and taught, the sacraments rightly administered, and church discipline faithfully exercised, there the one true holy and apostolic church is present.

There are three important points to be made here.

1. There are distinctive marks that the true Church must hold to, laid out by the Nicene Creed. The Creed, at the heart of orthodox Christianity, proclaims a belief in “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” These are the Four Marks of the Church, and the Fathers point to them constantly. The True Church is a single Institution, is Holy, is Catholic, and has Apostolic Succession. Historically, there’s no real question that the Nicene Fathers were referring to the visible Church, the very Church Calvin and the other Reformers broke away from and denied.
2. The Reformers are the source of these new “Marks”: solid preaching, proper administration of the sacraments, and Church discipline faithfully exercised. And the Calvinists are divided over what these new Marks are, and how many there are. The Belgic Confession and the Orthodox Presbterian Church list these three, while Calvin himself listed only two (excluding Church discipline). Some Reformed Evangelicals now claim that there are nine marks (none of which are the four identified by the Nicene Creed). Yet we’ve already seen from Scripture that the Church remains the Church even where She fails to deliver on one of these two (or three, or nine) categories.
3. The new “Marks” are divisive and unhelpful: The OPC notes that “many sects claim the name “church,”” but as an excuse for using the new “Marks.” But these sects can’t credibly claim Apostolic Succession or Catholicity or Oneness. But every sect can (and does) claim proper preaching, sacraments, and Church discipline. We think Presbyterians have too few sacraments. They think we have too many. So the new “Marks” provide no serious basis for distinguishing between the Church and schismatics or heretics. It quickly devolves into “they disagree with me, so they’re not really the Church.”

In fact, the new “Marks” were made for precisely that purpose. Calvin and the Reformers wanted to break away from the visible Church, and by creating heightened standards (including vague and impossible to prove or disprove criteria), they were able to justify it.

Let’s use divorce as a parallel. There’s no question that God hates divorce (Malachi 2:16) and totally forbids it (Mark 10:9; Luke 16:18). But if you really wanted to divorce your husband, all you’d have to do is create a new checklist, claiming that a true husband gives his life up for his wife (Ephesians 5:25). So unless your husband has risked martyrdom for you, he’s not really your husband, so you’re free to leave.

Do you see the error there? A husband should do x, y, and z. But that doesn’t mean he ceases to be your husband if he doesn’t, or that you get to divorce him if he doesn’t. There is such a thing as a lousy husband. By adding more and more things to the list of what it takes to be a true husband, you may sound pious, but you’re really just adding more and more excuses for divorce.

Likewise, the Church has some lousy ministers. There are bad homilies, there are times when heresy has sprung up, and the Church has been slow in cracking down. And there are times when there are even invalid Sacraments: a heretical priest who refuses to use the Trinitarian formula, or changes the words of consecration. But those people are, short of excommunication, still a part of the Church. Judas was a bad Apostle. But he was still an Apostle, according to Scripture (Acts 1:20; Matthew 10:1-4).

And of course, even Reformed churches suffer from bad homilies, lax ministers, and the like. For example, Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, has complained that Church discipline is “the missing Mark,” in that it’s so rarely exercised in the modern world. In other words, even most Reformed churches don’t meet the Reformed definition of Church. So this vague and heightened definition destroys the Church, rather than building it up, or locating it.


IV. Conclusion
Hopefully, this basic outline establishes a few things.

1. The Church, from the beginning, has believed that there are four essential Marks by which we can know the true Church: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.
2. The Catholic Church possesses all four, in the sense understood by the Fathers of the Council.
3. Protestant churches don’t, since the Reformers deliberately broke the Oneness of the Church, and end Apostolic Succession.
4. To justify these schisms, the Reformers invented new criteria that the Church must hold to, but they contradicted one another and the Church Fathers in so doing.
5. These new standards are contrary to the Bible, are subjective, and have helped destroy the Oneness that the Nicene Creed calls for, and that Christ calls for (John 17:20-23).

So if you’re looking to find the fullness of the Church established by Christ, look for the One that can credibly claim to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.