There is only one true church

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amigo de christo

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@Augustin56

If a man/woman places their trust for Salvation in Roman Catholicism, can they be saved???
I have nothing to ask Amigo...
but that's very nice of you.
I get the feeling we might agree on most everything.
Do YOU have any question you're interested in?
I have only a reminder . Now i do not know if you do this or not but if you do
you must cease instantly .
Do you pray to mary , to saints or angels etc .
This might seem hard to believe but this is blasphemy .
Now i aint saying you do i just am very worried you might be doing this .
There is only one we pray to and that is GOD in The name of Christ JESUS .
Now i know the RCC has a way of trying to justify this . I have listened to a few
that tried to explain it . No sir it is blasphemous to do so .
That would be my concern . Now if you do , dont just try and justify it
rather just cease from it and simply pray to God .
GOD already knows what we have need of even before we pray
and all we need to do is pray TO HIM . We do so THROUGH CHRIST .
If even mary , peter or the saints or angels were to appear today
and give a message it would be PRAY TO GOD , HE ALONE is all you need .
Do not call upon us for we are the created and not the CREATOR .
Call upon GOD in the name of JESUS the CHRIST .
 

amigo de christo

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lol x100

Are you serious???
i have very bad news to your question . HE DO BELIEVE THAT .
Peter warned out against such by saying as they also twist other scriptures unto their own destruction .
Rememeber the WHY behind the reason most hate sola scripta . SOMETHING in that bible gets in the way
of what they desire and want to beleive and they had rather heed men who preach WHAT they desire to hear
rather than to learn the scrips so they could learn WHAT THEY NEEDED TO HEAR .
 

amigo de christo

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satan was twisting scripture to get Jesus to indulge in sinful behavior. Try again.

The catholics do the same as what the devil does, they twist scripture and then that go far beyond what is written and teach stuff that's not even in scripture at all! View attachment 48665
The devil does do that my friend and so do many who love a lie .
They will twist the scrips to make it say that which THEY DESIRED to beleive .
Now who do that .
HAS GOD really said ye shall die , nay ye shall not die and then uses a truth like ye shall become as gods to know good
and evil , which DID happen but they also DIED .
Ye know not the scriptures nor the power of GOD , JESUS TOLD the jews .
You see people perish because they sit under those who twist the scrips .
Just because the devil can quote the scripture verbatum
dont mean we ought not to have learned the scripture .
WE should . because while he can quoate it verbatum he is twisting it
to contradict another area so as he can decieve them .
And most do not know the scriptures inspired by GOD and thus they cannot discern
when certain scrips are being twisted .
Example .
Satan told jesus to cast himself off the cliff , then took a verse OUT of text
to justify why JESUS could jump .
BUT JESUS said IT IS WRITTEN thou shall not TEMPT the LORD thy GOD .
Today most folks just go with the flow of twisted scrip
knowing neither the power of GOD or the scrips .
My people perish from lack of knowledge .
Those who rule over this people cause them to err .
And the many just love to have it so .
But my question is , WHAT WILL they do in the end .................................
 
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amigo de christo

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Just find 3 and post them.

BEST way to show that it is God's WAY.
The jews said to JESUS we have one Father , GOD .
JESUS says IF GOD truly were your FATHER you would have loved ME for i came forth from GOD .
Had you beleived MOSES you would have believed me for he wrote of me .
YE have not the LOVE OF GOD IN YOU , for HE whom GOD did send you BELIEVE NOT .

He who believes on me is not condemned but he who believes not on me is CONDEMNED already .
This JESUS said to those who had not repented to believe on HIM .
WOE unto thee , it will be far worse for YOU than ever it was for sodom on the day of judgement .
Paul wrote and told the church
if a man could die by two or three witnesses under the law , HOW MUCH SORER
a punishment for those who TROD JESUS CHRIST under foot .
John said WHO is a liar but he who Denies JESUS IS the CHRIST , HE is anti christ .
He who recieves not the testimony that GOD gave of HIS SON calls GOD A LIAR .
He who hears us is of GOD , HE who hears not us IS NOT OF GOD .
Jesus told the unbelieving jews who claimed GOD is our FATHER
YE are of your father THE DEVIL . the unbelieving WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD
be not decieved folks .
All liars shall have their part in the lake of fire .
WELL if one is callling GOD a liar , MAN THEY ARE THE LIAR . and if one believes NOT
the testimony that GOD gave of HIS SON , OOOPSY THEY ARE CALLING GOD a liar .
Now there are tons of other scrips i can bring . But who on earth has all the time to read that .
I mean TONS OF OTHERS scrips PROVING one must beleive and that those who do not WILL BE DAMNED .
Now since JESUS and later the apostels confirmed this , WHO YOU THINK this lamb is gonna beleive
men , under the guise and influience of darkness , OR JESUS OWN WORDS IN THAT BIBLE . exactly .
 

amigo de christo

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Just find 3 and post them.

BEST way to show that it is God's WAY.
Even as moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness
so too must the SON of man be lifted up . that who so ever BELIEVES
shall not perish but have everlasting life .
For GOD so LOVED the world that HE gave His only begotten son
that who so ever believes on HIM shall not perish but has eternal life .
For GOD sent not HIS son into the world to condemn the world
but that the world THROUGH him might be saved .
HE who believes on HIM is not condemned
OH BUT HE WHO BELIEVES NOT IS CONDEMEND already . NOW THEMS JESUS WORDS
because He has NOT BELIEVED on the only NAME of the Begotten SON OF GOD .
and if we read down farther and towards the end of that chapter it says
HE that beleives on the name of the SON of GOD
has everlasting life
but He who believes not the SON shall NOT SEE LIFE
but the WRATH OF GOD abides on him .
David we can do this all day . By grace i tried to get folks into that bible
that by grace i have been reading hours daily for over eighteen years. THAT is why i sound so different to so many .
WE HAVE GOT to get this people INTO the bible and NOT to read it through the lens of their men
but simply FOR themselves .
 

GodsGrace

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I have only a reminder . Now i do not know if you do this or not but if you do
you must cease instantly .
Do you pray to mary , to saints or angels etc .
This might seem hard to believe but this is blasphemy .
Now i aint saying you do i just am very worried you might be doing this .
There is only one we pray to and that is GOD in The name of Christ JESUS .
Now i know the RCC has a way of trying to justify this . I have listened to a few
that tried to explain it . No sir it is blasphemous to do so .
That would be my concern . Now if you do , dont just try and justify it
rather just cease from it and simply pray to God .
GOD already knows what we have need of even before we pray
and all we need to do is pray TO HIM . We do so THROUGH CHRIST .
If even mary , peter or the saints or angels were to appear today
and give a message it would be PRAY TO GOD , HE ALONE is all you need .
Do not call upon us for we are the created and not the CREATOR .
Call upon GOD in the name of JESUS the CHRIST .
Why would you think I do this?
 
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PinSeeker

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You haven't refuted Deuteronomy 8:3...
And what Christian would? Especially a "sola Scripturist," whatever that is. :)

No one ever heard of "sola scriptura" until Martin Luther invented it, largely due to his anger with the pope and his pride.
Well, he was not the only one, and he was not the first, to propagate the idea. Luther was only the first one to... pin a label on it. But he did so in response to the Catholic position at the time, which I'll get to in a moment, but first...

Though he didn't coin the term. Augustine (354-409 A.D.) certainly espoused the doctrine of sola Scriptura over a thousand years before Martin Luther supposedly "invented it." He said in a letter to Jerome ~ whom Augustine even credits as a personal influence regarding this very concept ~

"I admit to your Charity that it is from those books alone of the Scriptures, which are now called canonical, that I have learned to pay them such honor and respect as to believe most firmly that not one of their authors has erred in writing anything at all. If I do find anything in those books which seems contrary to truth, I decide that either the text is corrupt, or the translator did not follow what was really said, or that I failed to understand it.​
But, when I read other authors, however eminent they may be in sanctity and learning, I do not necessarily believe a thing is true because they think so, but because they have been able to convince me, either on the authority of the canonical writers or by a probable reason which is not inconsistent with truth. And I think that you, my brother, feel the same way; moreover, I say, I do not believe that you want your books to be read as if they were those of Prophets or Apostles, about whose writings, free of all error, it is unlawful to doubt. "​
(Letters, Volume 1 (1-82). Washington, D.C.: Catholic University of America Press. p. 392)​

Now as to the Catholic Church's position in Martin Luther's time and the time of the Reformation, Catholic doctrine (even now as well as then) was (is) based on "sacred tradition" as well as Scripture. Then as well as now, the Catholic Church officially regarded tradition and scripture as equal, which we can clearly see in the Bible itself is not true, especially in Jesus's exchange with the Pharisees in Matthew 15:

"Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.' He answered them, 'And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, "Honor your father and your mother," and, "Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die." But you say, "If anyone tells his father or his mother, 'What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: "This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me; in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men’” (Matthew 15:1-9).​

Sola scriptura never did and does not now make any explicit or implicit assertion that "sacred tradition" is worthless or even unimportant, but only rejects the notion that infallible authority was given to the magisterium to interpret both Scripture and tradition. Only Scripture is God-breathed, and according to Paul ~ and really God, Who is the ultimate Author of Scripture (God's Word) ~ "breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

A quick clarification of what the idea of sola Scriptura really is...

Scripture is our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture. Scripture is a “more sure Word,” standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is “more sure,” according to the Apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore, Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter on which it speaks. Sola Scriptura only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture (2 Peter 1:3). We are forbidden to add to or take away from Scripture (Deuteronomy. 4:2, 12:32; Revelation 22:18-19). To add to it is to lay on people a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (Matthew 23:4). Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved and all that we must do in order to glorify God.

And I'll just say this regarding Mary, she was certainly "blessed among women" in the sense that Elizabeth said that in Luke 1, that God chose her to be the mother of the Lord and "believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord," and as Mary herself then said, that "He Who is mighty has done great things for" her. We do not pray to hear or to any of the dead, as they cannot answer prayer; only God Himself can do that. And further, we are all blessed in the same way as Mary was in the sense that we Christians believe that what the Lord has promised will be fulfilled, and that the Lord has done great things for all of us. As David proclaims/sings in Psalm 1, "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on His law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers... the Lord knows the way of the righteous..."

Grace and peace to all.
 

Augustin56

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And what Christian would? Especially a "sola Scripturist," whatever that is. :)


Well, he was not the only one, and he was not the first, to propagate the idea. Luther was only the first one to... pin a label on it. But he did so in response to the Catholic position at the time, which I'll get to in a moment, but first...

Though he didn't coin the term. Augustine (354-409 A.D.) certainly espoused the doctrine of sola Scriptura over a thousand years before Martin Luther supposedly "invented it." He said in a letter to Jerome ~ whom Augustine even credits as a personal influence regarding this very concept ~

"I admit to your Charity that it is from those books alone of the Scriptures, which are now called canonical, that I have learned to pay them such honor and respect as to believe most firmly that not one of their authors has erred in writing anything at all. If I do find anything in those books which seems contrary to truth, I decide that either the text is corrupt, or the translator did not follow what was really said, or that I failed to understand it.​
But, when I read other authors, however eminent they may be in sanctity and learning, I do not necessarily believe a thing is true because they think so, but because they have been able to convince me, either on the authority of the canonical writers or by a probable reason which is not inconsistent with truth. And I think that you, my brother, feel the same way; moreover, I say, I do not believe that you want your books to be read as if they were those of Prophets or Apostles, about whose writings, free of all error, it is unlawful to doubt. "​
(Letters, Volume 1 (1-82). Washington, D.C.: Catholic University of America Press. p. 392)​

Now as to the Catholic Church's position in Martin Luther's time and the time of the Reformation, Catholic doctrine (even now as well as then) was (is) based on "sacred tradition" as well as Scripture. Then as well as now, the Catholic Church officially regarded tradition and scripture as equal, which we can clearly see in the Bible itself is not true, especially in Jesus's exchange with the Pharisees in Matthew 15:

"Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.' He answered them, 'And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, "Honor your father and your mother," and, "Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die." But you say, "If anyone tells his father or his mother, 'What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: "This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me; in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men’” (Matthew 15:1-9).​

Sola scriptura never did and does not now make any explicit or implicit assertion that "sacred tradition" is worthless or even unimportant, but only rejects the notion that infallible authority was given to the magisterium to interpret both Scripture and tradition. Only Scripture is God-breathed, and according to Paul ~ and really God, Who is the ultimate Author of Scripture (God's Word) ~ "breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

A quick clarification of what the idea of sola Scriptura really is...

Scripture is our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture. Scripture is a “more sure Word,” standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is “more sure,” according to the Apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore, Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter on which it speaks. Sola Scriptura only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture (2 Peter 1:3). We are forbidden to add to or take away from Scripture (Deuteronomy. 4:2, 12:32; Revelation 22:18-19). To add to it is to lay on people a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (Matthew 23:4). Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved and all that we must do in order to glorify God.

And I'll just say this regarding Mary, she was certainly "blessed among women" in the sense that Elizabeth said that in Luke 1, that God chose her to be the mother of the Lord and "believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord," and as Mary herself then said, that "He Who is mighty has done great things for" her. We do not pray to hear or to any of the dead, as they cannot answer prayer; only God Himself can do that. And further, we are all blessed in the same way as Mary was in the sense that we Christians believe that what the Lord has promised will be fulfilled, and that the Lord has done great things for all of us. As David proclaims/sings in Psalm 1, "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on His law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers... the Lord knows the way of the righteous..."

Grace and peace to all.
Clearly you don't know Scripture very well, sad to say. 2 Thes. 2:15 says, "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." Here, St. Paul is putting oral tradition (teaching) on the same level of authority as written teaching (Scripture). This makes sense, since oral teaching came before written teaching. Jesus never wrote a book. He taught the Apostles orally, and commanded them to do the same. In fact, the Bible says that not everything Jesus did and taught is in the Bible. Yet, Christ commanded the Apostles to teach all that He had taught them. (Matt. 28:20) This makes sense because it has only been in the last 100 years, give or take, that universal literacy was of any interest in humanity worldwide. Before that, the vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate. Insisting on a Bible-reading, self-interpreting approach, even if that worked (which it clearly doesn't), would have excluded the vast, vast majority of humanity.

It is the Church that St. Paul refers to as the "pillar and bullwark of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15, not the individual personally interpreting his/her Bible. In fact, St. Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 1:20-21. Yet, this is what all Protestantism is based upon, and why there is absolutely no unity of belief among the tens of thousands of man-made denominations that form Protestantism.
 
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GodsGrace

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You haven't refuted Deuteronomy 8:3, the verse Jesus used against sola scripturist Satan. Got any more "irrefutable evidence"?
:jest:

No one ever heard of "sola scriptura" until Martin Luther invented it, largely due to his anger with the pope and his pride. Material sufficiency of scripture is fine, but the Bible opposes formal sufficiency, and there is plenty of irrefutable evidence.
True.
I'd also like to add that Martin Luther wanted to remove the book of James from Canon because it spoke about doing works...or...works having something to do with justification.

I'd also add that ANY new teaching from the early church can be considered as false.
Including the teachings of Augustine of Hippo, which the reformed faith uses as an excuse to follow the teachings of a mere man, John Calvin.
Augustine spent 10 years in a gnostic manachean sect before joining the CC.

He brought some of his gnostic beliefs with him including:
Predestination
Absence of free will

At the time the church did not ex-communicate him because he came in handy....he was a good debater and did a good job with Pelagius.
He had a lot of charisma and, I'm sorry to say, the CC accepted his teaching on infant baptism...

However, the CC has abandoned the notion that man does not have free will,
and it certainly has abandoned the notion of double predestination, which is what John Calvin taught and which in no way can be compatible to the teachings of the NT.

Augustine was the only authoritative person in the CC to teach such...
NO ECF BEFORE HIM ever taught such incorrect doctrine and/or changed the nature of God the way that the reformed have.
They seem to proudly credit these incorrect teachings to a church (via Augustine) they otherwise loathe.
 

GodsGrace

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Clearly you don't know Scripture very well, sad to say. 2 Thes. 2:15 says, "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." Here, St. Paul is putting oral tradition (teaching) on the same level of authority as written teaching (Scripture). This makes sense, since oral teaching came before written teaching. Jesus never wrote a book. He taught the Apostles orally, and commanded them to do the same. In fact, the Bible says that not everything Jesus did and taught is in the Bible. Yet, Christ commanded the Apostles to teach all that He had taught them. (Matt. 28:20) This makes sense because it has only been in the last 100 years, give or take, that universal literacy was of any interest in humanity worldwide. Before that, the vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate. Insisting on a Bible-reading, self-interpreting approach, even if that worked (which it clearly doesn't), would have excluded the vast, vast majority of humanity.

It is the Church that St. Paul refers to as the "pillar and bullwark of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15, not the individual personally interpreting his/her Bible. In fact, St. Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 1:20-21. Yet, this is what all Protestantism is based upon, and why there is absolutely no unity of belief among the tens of thousands of man-made denominations that form Protestantism.
Indeed.
And after 1,500AD, scripture has been destroyed by incorrect theology which DID NOT EXIST before then.
And look where it has brought the Christian faith....
:(
 
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David in NJ

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Clearly you don't know Scripture very well, sad to say. 2 Thes. 2:15 says, "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." Here, St. Paul is putting oral tradition (teaching) on the same level of authority as written teaching (Scripture). This makes sense, since oral teaching came before written teaching. Jesus never wrote a book. He taught the Apostles orally, and commanded them to do the same. In fact, the Bible says that not everything Jesus did and taught is in the Bible. Yet, Christ commanded the Apostles to teach all that He had taught them. (Matt. 28:20) This makes sense because it has only been in the last 100 years, give or take, that universal literacy was of any interest in humanity worldwide. Before that, the vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate. Insisting on a Bible-reading, self-interpreting approach, even if that worked (which it clearly doesn't), would have excluded the vast, vast majority of humanity.

It is the Church that St. Paul refers to as the "pillar and bullwark of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15, not the individual personally interpreting his/her Bible. In fact, St. Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 1:20-21. Yet, this is what all Protestantism is based upon, and why there is absolutely no unity of belief among the tens of thousands of man-made denominations that form Protestantism.
"It is the Church that St. Paul refers to as the "pillar and bullwark of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15"

RCC is not the One True Church.

But it is a counterfeit that is governed by false apostles = 2 Cor 11:13

But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
 

GodsGrace

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RCC is not the One True Church.

But it is a counterfeit that is governed by false apostles = 2 Cor 11:13

But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
There is only one true church
The Church.
The Body of Christ.

OK.
Now having said that....
what is so great about the non-Catholic church?

Is Protestantism correct?
How could we know what Protestantism believes?
 

David in NJ

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You haven't refuted Deuteronomy 8:3, the verse Jesus used against sola scripturist Satan. Got any more "irrefutable evidence"?
:jest:

No one ever heard of "sola scriptura" until Martin Luther invented it, largely due to his anger with the pope and his pride. Material sufficiency of scripture is fine, but the Bible opposes formal sufficiency, and there is plenty of irrefutable evidence.

#1.) JESUS and the Holy Spirit always directs us to sola scriptura.

#2.) JESUS never refuted sola scriptura, but satan does = Genesis ch3 , Matthew ch4 , Daniel 7:8 , 2 Thess ch2 , Rev 13:5

#3.) sola scriptura is the SAME as when JESUS says: "It is written"

#4.) sola scriptura cannot be actuated by mere speaking = Matt 4:5

#5.) sola scriptura is in the Scriptures
 

David in NJ

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There is only one true church
The Church.
The Body of Christ.

OK.
Now having said that....
what is so great about the non-Catholic church?

Is Protestantism correct?
How could we know what Protestantism believes?
Good word - Thank You
ALL denominations are ineligible to call themselves "the One True Church" for NONE are the One True Church of Christ.

Protestantism is one-up from RCC in this aspect: We are to expose/protest that which is counterfeit in regards to Christ, which the RCC holds the title to, along with Mormons.
 

Augustin56

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RCC is not the One True Church.

But it is a counterfeit that is governed by false apostles = 2 Cor 11:13

But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
For what you posted to be true, had to have been no Church until the 16th century when Protestants showed up on the scene. (Actually, they were Catholics who broke away from the Church.) And, suddenly, mankind was lifted out of darkness to the fullness of truth by one of the thousands (and counting) denominations, none of whom totally agree with one another (else why would they create a new denomination?).

If Protestantism had any hope of being true, there would be one Protestant denomination, with all believing the same thing. The opposite, however, is true.

All you've done, in effect, is state that the Catholic Church, which has been here from the beginning, doesn't agree with your personal interpretation of a translation of the Bible given you by the Catholic Church. Sad!
 

PS95

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Clearly you don't know Scripture very well, sad to say. 2 Thes. 2:15 says, "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." Here, St. Paul is putting oral tradition (teaching) on the same level of authority as written teaching (Scripture). This makes sense, since oral teaching came before written teaching. Jesus never wrote a book. He taught the Apostles orally, and commanded them to do the same. In fact, the Bible says that not everything Jesus did and taught is in the Bible. Yet, Christ commanded the Apostles to teach all that He had taught them. (Matt. 28:20) This makes sense because it has only been in the last 100 years, give or take, that universal literacy was of any interest in humanity worldwide. Before that, the vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate. Insisting on a Bible-reading, self-interpreting approach, even if that worked (which it clearly doesn't), would have excluded the vast, vast majority of humanity.

It is the Church that St. Paul refers to as the "pillar and bullwark of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15, not the individual personally interpreting his/her Bible. In fact, St. Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 1:20-21. Yet, this is what all Protestantism is based upon, and why there is absolutely no unity of belief among the tens of thousands of man-made denominations that form Protestantism.
Hi Augustin, I have wondered about that myself.. what Paul was referring to. What are those oral teachings that the apostles handed down?

forgive me if you already answered that. I did not read all of this thread,. it's very long.
 

PinSeeker

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Clearly you don't know Scripture very well...
Well, you're welcome to your opinion, but clearly you can't make that assessment of anyone here. :) That's not to say you don't know Scripture, but you just can't make that assessment of anyone you don't know, as you are not... omnipotent... :)

2 Thes. 2:15 says, "Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours."
Since this is Paul saying this, then I'm sure you'll agree that what we have to understand then is, what are these "traditions that..." ~ they, the Christians in Thessalonica ~ "...were taught, either by their statements or letters, that they should stand firm and hold fast to." What do you suppose these to be, Augustin?

Here, St. Paul is putting oral tradition (teaching) on the same level of authority as written teaching (Scripture).
Well, yes, I agree, if and only if that teaching is from God via His Holy Spirit... This tradition, this teaching... is originally from and guided by the one true Authority, God Himself, Who does so in His Word, by the power of His Holy Spirit, Who, as Jesus said, is our "Helper, Whom the Father (has sent) in (His) name...", Who "...(teaches us) all things and bring to (our) remembrance all that (He has) said to (us)" (John 14:26). As you will no doubt remember, Paul himself, in Romans 13:1, says "there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."

Jesus never wrote a book. He taught the Apostles orally...
Yes, and from the Scriptures... in word and deed. As John says, Jesus Himself is the Word made flesh (John 1:14). And Jesus Himself said that all of Scripture was about Him (John 5:46). And as I'm sure you know... :) ... the writer of Hebrews says, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2).

...and commanded them to do the same.
Yes, He did. But He did not tell them to teach anything other than what He said and did. Again, He did tell them, in John 14:26, in telling them of the coming Holy Spirit, "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14:26).

In fact, the Bible says that not everything Jesus did and taught is in the Bible.
Well, if you're referring to what John says at the end of his Gospel ~ "Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25), then yes, I agree. But we shouldn't then think that there was anything different in substance or content than what we have in Scripture.

Yet, Christ commanded the Apostles to teach all that He had taught them. (Matt. 28:20).
Absolutely. And that command is for all of us, too, all we who are in Christ. So that brings us back, I think, to what Paul meant by "traditions" in 2 Thessalonians 2:15. In Matthew 28:20, Augustin, Christ told His disciples to teach them, these disciples they were to make from all nations, to observe all that He has commanded them, as you point out. He did not say anything beyond that, but only to "teach them to observe all that (He has) commanded them."

This makes sense because it has only been in the last 100 years, give or take, that universal literacy was of any interest in humanity worldwide. Before that, the vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate. Insisting on a Bible-reading, self-interpreting approach, even if that worked (which it clearly doesn't), would have excluded the vast, vast majority of humanity.

It is the Church that St. Paul refers to as the "pillar and bullwark of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15...
Agree, but this Church that Paul refers to that we should come to understand ~ who it is comprised of and why. At any one time, it is composed of all those who are "in Christ," for whom "there is therefore now no condemnation" (Romans 8:1), who have been "made alive together with Christ... and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:5-6), who "(God) has caused to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for (us), who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).

...not the individual personally interpreting his/her Bible.
...apart from the Holy Spirit, Who gives us intensely personal ~ not different ~ understanding (John 14:26). As John says ~ and he's speaking to each of us individually, "the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie ~ just as it has taught you, abide in Him" (1 John 2:27). This anointing that we have is the Holy Spirit Himself. And certainly John is not saying that we don't need teachers, as teaching itself is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and as such "empowered by the Spirit, Who apportions to each one individually as He wills," and given "for the common good" (1 Corinthians 12:4-11). And earlier in 1 Corinthians, Paul has said, "no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit Who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual" (1 Corinthians 2:11-13).

St. Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture in 2 Peter 1:20-21.
Right, but he goes on to explain in that very passage, specifically verse 21, not to make for themselves some different interpretation that that given by the prophets themselves... "For" ~ because ~ "no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

Yet, this is what all Protestantism is based upon, and why
No, quite the opposite, regarding sola Scriptura (which is only one of the five pillars of the Reformation). Sola Scriptura is about what is "from God" and what is not.

there is absolutely no unity of belief among the tens of thousands of man-made denominations that form Protestantism.
On the basics of the Gospel There are no divisions. Namely these things:

"Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men... and being found in human form, He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Philippians 2:5-6)​

... and...

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" Romans 8:1-4​

...and...

"...in all these things..." ('tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword') "...we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us..." so "...neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:31-39).​

On these things, there is absolutely no division. If there is, then that may be cause to question whether that person is a Christian or not.

Grace and peace to you, Augustin.
 
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GodsGrace

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Good word - Thank You
ALL denominations are ineligible to call themselves "the One True Church" for NONE are the One True Church of Christ.

Protestantism is one-up from RCC in this aspect: We are to expose/protest that which is counterfeit in regards to Christ, which the RCC holds the title to, along with Mormons.
I wouldn't put the CC in the same category as the Mormon church.

But that's not what I'm interested in.
What I mean is that, yes, the CC does have some incorrect doctrine, IMHO.

But isn't it also pretty bad when one says the word PROTESTANT and we don't really know what/which belief system is being referred to?
 
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