There is only one true church

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GodsGrace

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If you believe what Christians have believed and have taught in all generations, then you're built upon the Apostles. But if you're particular faith..what you think is so important to say, is something that only began to be said in 500 AD or in 1000 AD or in 1500 AD or in 1959 AD..whatever you're in, as good as it might be, is inadequate and is something less than the church of Christ. It isn't Apostolic. There is one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and that church has been teaching the gospel and preaching the Christian faith for 2000 years. It is evangelical, but not Protestant. It is Orthodox, but not Jewish. It is Catholic, but not Roman. It is not non-denominational, it is pre-denominational. It has been believed, taught, preserved, defended, and died for. It is the Faith that has established the universe. Proclaiming the Truth since 34 AD. The Church began on the day of Pentecost after Christ's resurrection.
I believe you're basically correct...even historically.
I just hope you don't turn out to be a hateful Catholic...
we already have two on this Forum and they're damaging the CC
which they try so desperately to defend.

We should speak with civility and respect for the other person.
If you can do this, I'd be happy to have a real dialogue with you.

If you're here to scorn everyone except the Catholics, then I won't bother.
Just try to remember that Jesus said we are to love each other.

So which kind of Catholic are you?
 

GodsGrace

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Nice sentiments amigo, but I still haven't found an Apostolic Church in any of that. It only seems to exist in our imagination.

I believe the reason the Apostolic Church no longer exists, is because the Apostles were given special revelation and special powers by Jesus Himself. Remember, they were given authority over Demons. Nobody was ever given such powers after them, the world never saw anyone with their gifts again.

What we have today is, people who lack faith and they lack zeal for God. We are nowhere near as faithful as the Apostles were, so we can't expect to find a faithful Church, because we are not as faithful as we should be.

Most Christians claim to be a true born again believers, but like Peter they are quick to deny the Lord as soon as they are confronted with persecution. Most Christians are happy to be Christians, as long as it doesn't cost them anything and Church Ministers are the same. They like to receive money but they don't defend the gospel if it means trouble for them.
I guess you're not aware that the CC has exorcists that actually are functional.
I guess you don't know that some speak in tongues unknown to them.
I guess you don't know that God can heal persons that are prayed over (or not).
Much you don't know.
 
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GodsGrace

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amadeus, keep in mind that it was the Catholic Church that wrote the New Testment, and in the late 4th century decided that it was worthy of being called Scripture. The Catholic Church did this with the authority given it by Christ. Authority is given, not taken. Christ promised, in Matt. 16:18, that the "gates of hell" would never prevail over His Church. Therefore, if the Catholic Church ever declared a doctrine that was in error, then Christ would have broken His promise and the gates of hell would certainly have prevailed over His Church. That hasn't happened.

It is the Church that speaks for Christ with His authority. See John 20:21 that says, "Jesus said to them again,l “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." Note the bold printed part. How did the Father send Jesus? With ALL heavenly authority! So, He likewise sends the Apostles. And the Apostle did likewise to their successors, the bishops, who have done likewise down through the centuries till today. Authority is given, not taken.

Protestantism crawls with error after error after error. That's why there are tens of thousands of doctrinally differing, disagreeing, contradicting, man-made denominations today. That cannot possibly be the grounding for the fullness of truth that Christ brought to mankind, can it?
Agreed.
But let's be honest and say that the CC also has some teachings that are really not biblical in the sense that Paul or Peter or John would have liked to see.

Here are the ones I do not see in the bible:
Confession as it's practiced today
Purgatory
Indulgences

The above were developed over hundreds of years and I see no mention of this in the early writings.
I consider the early writings to be pre the Nicene Council.

But I do agree that the reformation brought many problems with it.
It's obvious from these threads that we cannot even agree on the most basic teachings.

Sola Scriptura does NOT work.
 

strepho

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Gods Elect are the true church of christ.

The apostles are The Election.!!,

So are the prophets !!

Ephesians chapter 2:20

Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, jesus christ himself the chief corner stone in which the whole building being fitted together, grows into holy temple in the Lord. In whom you also are being built together for dwelling place of God in the spirit.

2 Peter 1:10

There fore brothers be all more diligent to confirm your calling and Election.

Gods Elect were chosen in first earth age.

The position for Elect can't be volunteered for.

Election are shepherds, priests.

In Revelation.
Jesus found fault with 5 churches.
Wont teach repentance.
Teach tradition of men and false doctrine.
Or tolerate sodomy
Or allowed heathen traditions and customs to infiltrate their congregations.

Philadelphia, and smyrna are the election.

These two churches Jesus is happy with.

The election are doers of the word.

Some churches are hearers only, lip service. Play actors.
There not sincere and diligent about serving Jesus.

Isaiah chapter 6

Many people have spirit of stupor. They cant understand deep truth of God's word.

The hirelings are shepherds in churches. Teaching traditions of men and false doctrine.
Zephniah chapter 3. The priests have polluted the sanctuary.

The hirelings are in it for pension plan, salary. They are compromised. They do what the deacon board tells them.

Basically, the pastors and priests sold out.

It will be very hard to find shepherds who tell you the truth.

The apostles are sent forth.
They are shepherds.

Today they are pastors, evangelists and teachers.

Both men and women.

1 Corinthians chapter 2.

Only few have holy spirit.

Many people have spirit of stupor.

The election have holy spirit.
 

Augustin56

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Agreed.
But let's be honest and say that the CC also has some teachings that are really not biblical in the sense that Paul or Peter or John would have liked to see.

Here are the ones I do not see in the bible:
Confession as it's practiced today
Purgatory
Indulgences

The above were developed over hundreds of years and I see no mention of this in the early writings.
I consider the early writings to be pre the Nicene Council.

But I do agree that the reformation brought many problems with it.
It's obvious from these threads that we cannot even agree on the most basic teachings.

Sola Scriptura does NOT work.
Well, there's a lot to unpack here, and I don't want to write a book. But, I would offer the following points for your consideration:

1. Nothing in the Bible contradicts any Catholic doctrine, and vice versa.
2. We believe that while doctrines cannot ever change, our understanding of them can develop, i.e. we can find deeper meaning of existing doctrines.
3. Confession, like the other Sacraments, have necessary elements to them. Whether they are practice in a particular way doesn't really atter, as long as those elements are there. With regard to Confession, John 20:19-23 clearly shows Jesus Christ (God) delegating His godly authority to the Apostles to forgive or retain sins. Since the Apostles weren't called to be mind readers, the sinner had to tell (confess) his sins to the Apostle in order for the Apostle to decide whether to forgive or retain that (those) sin (sins). Authority is 'given" not "taken." The Apostles "gave" the authority given them by Christ to their successors, the bishops, who did likewise, down through the centuries till today.
4. Purgatory is certainly in the Bible, both Old and New Testament. Here are a couple of articles that touch on where it can be found in the Bible: 1) Is Purgatory Found in the Bible? 2) Did Jesus Teach that Purgatory Is Real?
5. Indulgences - here are a couple of articles that may help explain indulgences, etc. 1) Myths about Indulgences 2) Primer on Indulgences The first explains what indulgences are not and the second explains where the reasoning and Biblical references supporting indulgences may be found.
 

Christian Soldier

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I guess you're not aware that the CC has exorcists that actually are functional.
I guess you don't know that some speak in tongues unknown to them.
I guess you don't know that God can heal persons that are prayed over (or not).
Much you don't know.
I'm aware of those fake Catholic Exorcists, who have never cast out a single Demon, (outside of a Hollywood studio) of' course.

I know some speak in tongues, when a Demon enters them. But no normal person would ever blab such dribble.

It depends on which god you're taking about, some gods don't answer prayers.

I don't know much but, all you have taught me is Demonic Doctrine.
 

amigo de christo

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Nice sentiments amigo, but I still haven't found an Apostolic Church in any of that. It only seems to exist in our imagination.

I believe the reason the Apostolic Church no longer exists, is because the Apostles were given special revelation and special powers by Jesus Himself. Remember, they were given authority over Demons. Nobody was ever given such powers after them, the world never saw anyone with their gifts again.

What we have today is, people who lack faith and they lack zeal for God. We are nowhere near as faithful as the Apostles were, so we can't expect to find a faithful Church, because we are not as faithful as we should be.

Most Christians claim to be a true born again believers, but like Peter they are quick to deny the Lord as soon as they are confronted with persecution. Most Christians are happy to be Christians, as long as it doesn't cost them anything and Church Ministers are the same. They like to receive money but they don't defend the gospel if it means trouble for them.
There is a remmant my friend . Many have bowed to the image of another who has come in
his all inclusive name to spread a love that will gather the tribes of earth and her religoins
to merge as one under this sin accepting broad path to GOD love lie .
This is the delusion that is meant to gather the divided lost souls to now merge again as one
under its shade , under its unholy love
It has a form of godliness but denies the very gospel of Christ and rather preaches a socially engineered
one that is meant to reconcile the tribes and religoins of their beloved mother earth to be as one .
They worship the creation , the created , NOT HE WHO created .
They will use His name to spread a false unity net whose bait is a love that has come of the world , NOT OF GOD .
Its a net meant to gather the lost to rise as one man and to have fellowship
and find common ground under a lie . Only they dont know its a lie and the father of lies they are gathering as one under .
THEY THINK its LOVE and that it is of GOD .
 
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amigo de christo

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Agreed.
But let's be honest and say that the CC also has some teachings that are really not biblical in the sense that Paul or Peter or John would have liked to see.

Here are the ones I do not see in the bible:
Confession as it's practiced today
Purgatory
Indulgences

The above were developed over hundreds of years and I see no mention of this in the early writings.
I consider the early writings to be pre the Nicene Council.

But I do agree that the reformation brought many problems with it.
It's obvious from these threads that we cannot even agree on the most basic teachings.

Sola Scriptura does NOT work.
Sola scriptura does work . The problem is most who even say it DONT DO IT .
they too have a web of mens doctrines twisted into it .
Anyone can say SOLA SCRIPTA and yet they dont even really read the bible for themselves
and if they do you can bet they are learning it through the lens of their denomination .
I have heard many say the BIBLE is the inspired words of GOD
and they hold it up and yet , yet they themselves barely read it and when they do
ITS Through the lens of their own leaders who twisted things .
Most who even claim to be fundamental are not fundamental .
Again they follow a certain view of a certain said leader or leaders who simply led them astray
by their own teachings and what they claim the bible says .
My advice to all and to all my advice is , GET in the BIBLE FOR YOU . Men , very crafity
very subtile men are twisting things .
Get in THE BIBLE , for OURSELVES and learn it for ourselves .
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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Nice sentiments amigo, but I still haven't found an Apostolic Church in any of that. It only seems to exist in our imagination.
Wise Men still seek Him.
I believe the reason the Apostolic Church no longer exists, is because the Apostles were given special revelation and special powers by Jesus Himself. Remember, they were given authority over Demons. Nobody was ever given such powers after them, the world never saw anyone with their gifts again.
Matthew 28:19-20 English Standard Version 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[ a]the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.

Jesus lied, according to you. Jesus didn't abandon His Church after the death of the last Apostle. That's a Mormon belief. Jesus builds an infallible, indestructable Church, He does it with sinful humans. v
What we have today is, people who lack faith and they lack zeal for God. We are nowhere near as faithful as the Apostles were, so we can't expect to find a faithful Church, because we are not as faithful as we should be.
Speak for yourself.
Most Christians claim to be a true born again believers, but like Peter they are quick to deny the Lord as soon as they are confronted with persecution.
Yea, it happens. But don't ignore the fact that Christians of every stripe are the most persecuted of any religion in the world.
Aiding the Persecuted Church
That's not a 'Catholic' source.
Nobody was ever given such powers after them, the world never saw anyone with their gifts again.
 

GodsGrace

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Sola scriptura does work . The problem is most who even say it DONT DO IT .
they too have a web of mens doctrines twisted into it .
Anyone can say SOLA SCRIPTA and yet they dont even really read the bible for themselves
and if they do you can bet they are learning it through the lens of their denomination .

Let's have a serious discussion here.
HOW does sola scriptura work IF we all have differing ideas?
Some of us might be under the leadership of some denomination or some person...
but not all of us are.
I'm non-denomnational.
I know Catholic doctrine, Nazarene doctrine and Reformed doctrine.
BUT I could not identify myself as any one of those 3.
So I read for myself,,,I think for myself,,,I come away from the NT with specific concepts.
Do I have some master intelligence no one else has?
NO.

AND, we have to admit that those that write the doctrine for these denominations are theologians that are
very well versed and know about hermeneutics and exegesis.

Let me ask you this....
We debate much here about whether or not works are necessary....
HOW can we be sure of who is correct?

I have heard many say the BIBLE is the inspired words of GOD
and they hold it up and yet , yet they themselves barely read it and when they do
ITS Through the lens of their own leaders who twisted things .
Most who even claim to be fundamental are not fundamental .
Again they follow a certain view of a certain said leader or leaders who simply led them astray
by their own teachings and what they claim the bible says .
My advice to all and to all my advice is , GET in the BIBLE FOR YOU . Men , very crafity
very subtile men are twisting things .
Get in THE BIBLE , for OURSELVES and learn it for ourselves .
Maybe you're right.
Can that be the simple solution?
I just don't think so.
 

Ziggy

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I believe the word of God is written personally to every believer. And every believer should hold a candle to the mirror and judge in himself whether they are walking according to the word of God given to them.
He who has ears to hear let him hear.
I believe this is a personal invitation and one must venture on his own to find the truth within themselves and not what other peoples truths reveal to them.

Moses gave Israel the law and he expounded to them the words and their meaning. Then he told the parents to teach their children.
And as time goes by it can get confusing according to how the parents heard and understood what Moses said.
But now we have it in writing and the scrolls are made known openly to the world.
And it still isn't any different than when it was by word of mouth because everyones interpretation is a reflection of their own understanding of what the word says.
I don't believe the bible speaks to every individual in the same way. Some hear it this way and others that way.
The challenge is finding common ground we can all agree on. The foundation should always be solid.
And after that every person gets to add their understanding to how it applies to themselves.

We debate much here about whether or not works are necessary....
HOW can we be sure of who is correct?


1Co 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So what is this "work" that Paul is speaking about?

Hugs
 

Pearl

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I guess you're not aware that the CC has exorcists that actually are functional.
When I belonged to the Anglican Church many years ago, our lovely vicar told us that each area - diocese - had an exorcist. And I once was present when a demon was cast out of a man in a large assembly.
 
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David in NJ

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No one gave anyone the authority to found another Church apart from the one Christ founded and with which He identifies as one. Either we are obedient to Christ or we want to be our own Pope, appointed by ourselves.

Recall in Gen. 3:5, when the serpent (Satan) told Eve, "God knows well that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, who know* good and evil.” So many today want to be their own god, doing whatever they want to do rather than what God wants them to do.
Pope(s)???
 
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Johann

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1Co 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So what is this "work" that Paul is speaking about?
1. The Foundation (Verse 11): Paul emphasizes that Jesus Christ is the only foundation for the Christian faith. This foundation represents the essential teachings of the gospel, the person and work of Jesus Christ, upon which the church is built.

**2. Building Materials (Verse 12): Paul describes various materials that can be used to build upon this foundation:

Gold, silver, precious stones: These materials represent works of high quality, durability, and eternal value. They symbolize faithful service, sound doctrine, and righteous living.
Wood, hay, stubble: These materials represent works of lesser quality, temporary and perishable. They symbolize superficial, self-serving, or ineffective service and teaching.
**3. Revelation and Testing of Work (Verse 13): Paul states that everyone's work will be revealed and tested by fire. The "day" refers to the day of judgment when Christ will evaluate the lives and works of believers. The fire symbolizes God's judgment, which will test the quality of each person's work.

**4. Outcome of the Testing (Verses 14-15):

Verse 14: If a person's work survives the testing, they will receive a reward. This implies that works of lasting value (gold, silver, precious stones) will endure and be rewarded by God.
Verse 15: If a person's work is burned up, they will suffer loss, but they themselves will be saved, though as through fire. This means that even if a believer's work is found lacking and does not endure, their salvation remains secure. However, they will experience loss in terms of rewards.
What is the "work" Paul is speaking about?

The "work" refers to the actions, service, ministry, and teachings that believers engage in after their foundation in Christ is established. It encompasses:


Ministry and Service: The efforts and activities undertaken to advance the gospel, serve the church, and aid others.
Teaching and Doctrine: The accuracy and faithfulness of the teachings and doctrines that one promotes and adheres to.
Personal Conduct and Righteous Living: The ethical and moral choices one makes, reflecting Christ's character and commands.
Paul is emphasizing the importance of building a life and ministry of lasting value that aligns with the truth and character of Christ. While salvation is secure for those who have faith in Jesus, the quality of their works will be tested, and their rewards will be determined accordingly.


If the work ... survives [endures] -- (See v. 13. 1Co_3:13)
The context identifies those who suffer loss as being Christians who seek to build the church with materials that fail to withstand God’s assessment.

Those Christians whose works stand the test of fire (cf. 1Pe_1:7) will be rewarded (cf. Mat_25:14-30; Luk_19:11-27). Those whose works are consumed by the fire will themselves escape the flames (as if they were jumping out of the burning wooden structure they had built) and be saved, but without any works of praise to present to Christ. - EBCNT

Receive a reward -- See v. 8 (1Co_3:8) The New Testament writers spoke of these rewards symbolically as crowns elsewhere (cf. 1Co_9:25; Php_4:1; 1Th_2:19; 2Ti_4:8; Jas_1:12; 1Pe_5:4; Rev_2:10; Rev_3:11). It is perfectly proper to serve Christ to gain a crown. We will one day lay it at the feet of our Savior. It is a symbol of a life of faithful service that we performed out of gratitude for His grace to us (cf. Rev_4:4, Rev_4:10).*
* If the idea of serving God for a reward makes you uncomfortable, may I suggest that you read again the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5–7)? There Jesus repeatedly appealed to His hearers to follow His teaching with the prospect of receiving an eternal reward for doing so. For a helpful introduction to the study of the Christian’s rewards, see Wall, or Zane C. Hodges, Grace in Eclipse.

Reward -- Dan_12:3; Mat_16:27; 1Co_3:6, 1Co_3:9, 1Co_3:12-15.
A builder only received payment upon the completion of a project. Although Paul does not specify the reward here, it may include greater responsibility (Matt 25:21), praise from God (1Co_4:5), and the satisfaction of having one’s work endure testing by fire. - FSB
 
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David in NJ

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Agreed.
But let's be honest and say that the CC also has some teachings that are really not biblical in the sense that Paul or Peter or John would have liked to see.

Here are the ones I do not see in the bible:
Confession as it's practiced today
Purgatory
Indulgences

The above were developed over hundreds of years and I see no mention of this in the early writings.
I consider the early writings to be pre the Nicene Council.

But I do agree that the reformation brought many problems with it.
It's obvious from these threads that we cannot even agree on the most basic teachings.

Sola Scriptura does NOT work.
Sola Scriptura is the Way the Truth and the Life = "the Word that was God from the Beginning"

What does NOT work is 'unbelief' in the Word of God.........."Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God"

People CHOOSE to reject(unbelief) scripture for the following reasons:
a.) heart hardened thru sin
b.) RELIGION = RCC, SAD, Pre-Trib, and on and on it goes
c.) Fear of man = Religion/Social/Political
d.) Partiality / Respect of Persons
e.) lacking the Holy Spirit
 
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amigo de christo

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Let's have a serious discussion here.
HOW does sola scriptura work IF we all have differing ideas?
Some of us might be under the leadership of some denomination or some person...
but not all of us are.
I'm non-denomnational.
I know Catholic doctrine, Nazarene doctrine and Reformed doctrine.
BUT I could not identify myself as any one of those 3.
So I read for myself,,,I think for myself,,,I come away from the NT with specific concepts.
Do I have some master intelligence no one else has?
NO.

AND, we have to admit that those that write the doctrine for these denominations are theologians that are
very well versed and know about hermeneutics and exegesis.

Let me ask you this....
We debate much here about whether or not works are necessary....
HOW can we be sure of who is correct?


Maybe you're right.
Can that be the simple solution?
I just don't think so.
the problem with man is man and that is his heart is evil .
Too many try and read the bible and make it fit what they want it to say . That RIGHT THERE be the problem .
and the number is so high i would bet its in over ninety five percent of even christendom itself now .
ITS REAL bad .
but , people gonna do as they do . still the advice to get back into the bible IS DIRE NECESSARY .
men gonna do and men gonna believe as they do .
BUT we better GET IN THE BIBLE and fast . oh i know many twist scrips .
but , GET BACK IN ONLY THE BIBLE and learn for you . NEVER let a man tell ya
THIS CANNOT be done . that is a man I WONT HEED PEROID . get in the bible for YOU
and for you GET IN THE BIBLE .
 

Augustin56

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Pope(s)???
The office of Pope was established by Jesus Christ. St. Peter was the first occupant. This office has the authority of Jesus Christ (God) to govern and sanctify the Church founded by Christ. Remember, authority is "given" not "taken." And, whatever level of authority exists, and equal level of responsibility exists.

Let me know if I need to flesh this out for you with Scripture, etc.
 

GodsGrace

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I believe the word of God is written personally to every believer. And every believer should hold a candle to the mirror and judge in himself whether they are walking according to the word of God given to them.
He who has ears to hear let him hear.
I believe this is a personal invitation and one must venture on his own to find the truth within themselves and not what other peoples truths reveal to them.

Moses gave Israel the law and he expounded to them the words and their meaning. Then he told the parents to teach their children.
And as time goes by it can get confusing according to how the parents heard and understood what Moses said.
But now we have it in writing and the scrolls are made known openly to the world.
And it still isn't any different than when it was by word of mouth because everyones interpretation is a reflection of their own understanding of what the word says.
I don't believe the bible speaks to every individual in the same way. Some hear it this way and others that way.
The challenge is finding common ground we can all agree on. The foundation should always be solid.
And after that every person gets to add their understanding to how it applies to themselves.




1Co 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So what is this "work" that Paul is speaking about?

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The NT is full of scripture that teaches that we are to do good works/deeds.
This is all Jesus spoke of....I don't know how some can deny this.

Some say that they do good works because they WANT to.
I've done some works that were not very pleasant but that God called me to do
and with the Help of the Holy Spirit I received the strength to do them.

It's not every "work" that we wish to do, but sometimes, as Christians, I feel that we must obey.

I believe you might feel the same.
 
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GodsGrace

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When I belonged to the Anglican Church many years ago, our lovely vicar told us that each area - diocese - had an exorcist. And I once was present when a demon was cast out of a man in a large assembly.
I don't know if every diocese has an exorcist....I would tend to doubt it because it's such a specific calling.
However, yes, they are certainly real. And very well trained in Rome. One very famous exorcist was depicted in a movie, but, of course,
they Hollywoodize it to make it more interesting so it become unbelievable.

If satan was able to possess persons in Jesus' time, he can do it now too.
Nothing has changed.
 
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