When are God's Elect Justified?

[brightfame52]

The cross was not the basis for justification. Instead, the cross was the basis for propitiation. We are justified by faith, as Paul argues. And we are justified when we believe.

The Cross it the basis for the Justification of them He died for, they were Justified by His Blood when He died , then later they are given Faith to know and believe that they were Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And Propitiation is the same as His Cross, for propitiation means they are Justified from Gods Wrath, because God for Christs sake is at peace with them. Now Faith will be given to only them who Christs Death Justified and propitiated God for.

 

[JLB]

The promise is to His people though, not the unbelieving world.
And God has foreknown His people.
Peter is writing to the church, which includes those who will be saved in time who are known to God.
None of the apostles letters are written for people who will never believe.

it says it right there,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

So then this promise is only for the believing ones.

The promise is to whoever in the world who believes.

 

[brightfame52]

The promise is to whoever in the world who believes.

Thats false, conditional Justification which is works

 

[JLB]

Thats false, conditional Justification which is works

That's actually the words of Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Of course, I know you have your own doctrine that you follow, so you are free to reject what Jesus said.



JLB

 

[Scott Downey]

The promise is to whoever in the world who believes.

Of course, I don't limit God's ability to change someone, anyone so that they do believe.

Of belief though is that God grants some to believe, and Paul says it is why some do believe, and he plainly tells the believing church this.

As it says here, and there are more examples of Christ saying this same thing too.
Phillipians 1

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

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27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but [f]to you of salvation, and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

 

[JLB]

Of course, I don't limit God's ability to change someone, anyone so that they do believe.

Of belief though is that God grants some to believe, and Paul says it is why some do believe, and he plainly tells the believing church this.

As it says here, and there are more examples of Christ saying this same thing too.
Phillipians 1

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

******************************************
27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but [f]to you of salvation, and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

Yes, the gospel is the power of God unto Salvation for them that believe.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


A person must hear and believe the Gospel in order to be saved.


Do you believe this?

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, the gospel is the power of God unto Salvation for them that believe.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


A person must hear and believe the Gospel in order to be saved.


Do you believe this?

Absolutely, no one is born saved.

And about hearing, what does the Spirit say?

The Purpose of Parables​

9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”​

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I [b]should heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

 

[JLB]

Absolutely, no one is born saved.

And about hearing, what does the Spirit say?

The Purpose of Parables​

9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”​

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I [b]should heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Is that a yes?


That a person must hear and believe the Gospel to saved?

 

[Scott Downey]

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

There is no understanding given to some as they have no ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.
Those people can and will never believe in Christ as they have not been given to know by God the things of God and salvation in Christ.

They have no ears to hear Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Is that a yes?


That a person must hear and believe the Gospel to saved?

Yes, of course.
The carnally minded do not, nor can they believe in Christ.
They will not come to Christ.
What does John 5 say?

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

But there is this thing about hearing... if someone cannot hear, they will never be believing.

 

[Scott Downey]

What else does Jesus say about them that do not hear? That they do not have the love of God in them so they do not believe when Christ appears to them, and they are therefore unwilling to come to Christ to be saved.

This is why you must be first born again to see the kingdom and believe in Christ, unspiritual minded man. who are of the world and not of God, will not ever be believing as believing in Christ is of the Spirit of God.

John 5
37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.

 

[Scott Downey]

And further confirmation in John 8 of our need to be born again, anew of the Spirit of God, which really means that we then have God as our FATHER as we are only then his children being of God and not of the world.

John 8

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

v47 to be of God means born again as Jesus says in John 3.
Born again always comes first, faith and confessing Christ comes afterwards.

 

[brightfame52]

That's actually the words of Jesus Christ.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Of course, I know you have your own doctrine that you follow, so you are free to reject what Jesus said.



JLB

Believing is a action, a work.

 

[JLB]

Yes, of course.
The carnally minded do not, nor can they believe in Christ.
They will not come to Christ.
What does John 5 say?

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

But there is this thing about hearing... if someone cannot hear, they will never be believing.

So you agree, then that a person must hear and believe to become saved; to be born again.

 

[JLB]

Believing is a action, a work.

Believe is the condition by which a person is saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


Notice these by the wayside did indeed hear, but they did not believe.

... lest they should believe and be saved.


Believe = Saved





JLB

 

[Scott Downey]

Believe is the condition by which a person is saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


Notice these by the wayside did indeed hear, but they did not believe.

... lest they should believe and be saved.


Believe = Saved


JLB

I think people think parables are helping the unbelieving to believe, but no, it's the exact opposite. It is a sign given to those who do not believe.

To hear with a good heart is the kind of Spirit led hearing for those God is saving, that good heart is a born again of God heart, as they are of God and not of the world. Those are the people God is saving and no one else. They hear God, as they are of God, while those who just hear the parable will never understand the truth.

The fact the devil can do that to them shows they are not of God, not having a born-again spirit, which Satan cannot touch.

I John 4
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

1 John 5
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps[f] [g]himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

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11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of [g]temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.[h]

 

[Scott Downey]

Another example of how the unbelieving will not understand what Jesus is saying
Jesus in John 8 actually outright tells them they cannot understand HIS speech, and cannot bear to hear Him, as they are of the devil and not of God. So, the unbelieving Jews disputed everything with Christ to seek something to use against Him to kill Him.

There was no plan of God's to use parables or illustrations to convince the unbelieving to believe.

John 10
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

Jesus the Good Shepherd​

7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came [a]before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [b]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is [c]mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

 

[JLB]

I think people think parables are helping the unbelieving to believe, but no, it's the exact opposite. It is a sign given to those who do not believe.

Luke 8:12 is definitely about those who hear the message of salvation, but don't believe.

Believe is the condition that is required for a person to be saved.

If a person hears and doesn't believe then they will not be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved

JLB

 

[CadyandZoe]

Justified also by His blood.

Romans 5

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

As believers, we were reconciled to God, but the unbelieving experience God's wrath. And having enmity with God, they refuse to come to Christ and believe and be saved.

Why then did Paul plead with people to be reconciled with God if they already are?

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

So we see that not all people are reconciled with God.

Ask yourself, does God destroy all His enemies?
Are all reconciled with God?
Who does God destroy in Hell?

Good points. I think Paul meant for us to understand that we are justified by our faith and trust in his blood.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Cross it the basis for the Justification of them He died for, they were Justified by His Blood when He died , then later they are given Faith to know and believe that they were Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

And Propitiation is the same as His Cross, for propitiation means they are Justified from Gods Wrath, because God for Christs sake is at peace with them. Now Faith will be given to only them who Christs Death Justified and propitiated God for.

I am careful to maintain the Biblical distinction between propitiation and justification because Christians seem to have lost an essential aspect of the Gospel message -- connection. For example,

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

What does it mean for Christ to 'know' me? This 'knowing' is not just about recognition, but about a deep, personal relationship. What is my connection to Jesus Christ? How does Jesus regard me? The Gospel's most essential aspect is the idea that our salvation depends on how we are related to Jesus Christ. Who is he to me personally?

Sometimes our "salvation formula" is missing that aspect and it is critical that we understand why connection is so important. Consider the following passage.

John 5:21-23 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Essentially, Jesus decides whom to save and if we are not connected to him as one of his disciples and walk according to his gospel, we will not be saved.