The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Brakelite]

Well no, Keraz is not correct about his idea of the hardening of the Jews being their own fault.

Apostle Paul in Romans 11 warned those in Christ against believing that kind of idea about his brethren the Jews, and Paul used the idea of 'conceit' for those who do keep such a false idea...

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Further up in Romans 11:7-11 Paul showed that GOD Himself is Who placed that "blindness" upon the majority of the Jews. Above Paul shows God is going to remove it in the future, when that "fulness of the Gentiles be come in."


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Is GOD able to take away their sins and save them? Those like Keraz that says they are going to perish because of rejecting Christ during this world, are those equal to GOD? No, Keraz is NOT GOD. Nor does he have any authority to claim who specifically is going to perish in the future "lake of fire"! Keraz is Biblically ignorant, going directly against what Apostle Paul has taught right here in Romans 11.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

You misunderstand the character of God. He is not an arbitrary tyrant causing people to be lost just to gratify His craving for glory. Those blinded are the victims of their own choices, and God, for whatever role He plays in their ignorance, knows their future and by His action would not alter the destiny they have already chosen for themselves, but acts for the sake of those who have accepted the gospel, possibly for their protection and the well being of the kingdom over all.

 

[Davy]

You misunderstand the character of God. He is not an arbitrary tyrant causing people to be lost just to gratify His craving for glory.

You are way... off base with your above assumption directed at me. I never had any... such idea as that, and in my post I EXPLAINED WHY... GOD BLINDED THE MAJORITY OF THE JEWS, as Apostle Paul showed in Romans 11.

But it's obvious you have NOT actually studied what Paul taught in Romans 11, and left out the following...

Rom 11:7-11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, 'Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.'

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
KJV

Do you not comprehend what you read? What is Paul saying in the above 11th verse? What does that, "Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:" mean? But instead the reason for their fall was WHAT, according to Paul there?

 

[Davy]

The rapture is going to happen prior to the tribulation. Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4-5 are talking about the exact same subject. I can prove it.

No, you cannot prove that, and especially NOT with Matthew 24 and 1 Thess.4.


What Jesus said...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

You are pushing men's FALSE PRE-TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE THEORY. That idea is NOWHERE written in The Word of God.

In 1 Thess.4:13-16, Apostle Paul taught the SAME GATHERING that my Lord Jesus Christ taught in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27. The Matt.24 version is about the 'asleep' saints being gathered from heaven after the resurrection and with Jesus bringing them with Him like Paul said. The Mark 13 version is about the saints still alive on earth being raptured when Jesus comes AFTER the tribulation.

Obviously then, you need to read your Bible for yourself, and come out of your Babylon confusion of the false pre-trib rapture doctrine of men.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

144,000 during Great Tribulation?

God's Absolute Necessity to "seal them" for That Horrible Time Of JACOB's Trouble, and be rest assured That He Will not leave Himself Without A Witness, Because:

God Will Have Removed All of HIS ambassadors ( The Body Of Christ ), at His
Great GRACE Departure, Before Declaring War/Judgment on and Unbelieving
and Ungodly world "left behind" to choose "worship God" OR "worship the beast", eh?

Amen.

 

[Truther]

No, you cannot prove that, and especially NOT with Matthew 24 and 1 Thess.4.


What Jesus said...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

You are pushing men's FALSE PRE-TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE THEORY. That idea is NOWHERE written in The Word of God.

In 1 Thess.4:13-16, Apostle Paul taught the SAME GATHERING that my Lord Jesus Christ taught in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27. The Matt.24 version is about the 'asleep' saints being gathered from heaven after the resurrection and with Jesus bringing them with Him like Paul said. The Mark 13 version is about the saints still alive on earth being raptured when Jesus comes AFTER the tribulation.

Obviously then, you need to read your Bible for yourself, and come out of your Babylon confusion of the false pre-trib rapture doctrine of men.

Compared the two passages. It goes from catching away to thief to drunken servant in both passages. If you would like, I will post it for you when I get on the computer. This way, I will highlight the order of both passages. Seriously, it’ll blow your mind.

 

[Truther]

Here is proof that the rapture is pre trib...


37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;



15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


Paul was quoting Jesus of how we are taken to be with the Lord before the Tribulation.

Notice catching away of the saints, the thief and the drunk. Both in the exact same order.

Notice that Paul says "we say" by the "word of the Lord".

They all knew this event.

Theologians go around teaching that Paul had a "special revelation" in 1 Thes 4-5.

Wrong. He was quoting Jesus in Matt 24. Everyone knew about it, but Paul wrote about it.

 

[ewq1938]

The rapture is going to happen prior to the tribulation. Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4-5 are talking about the exact same subject.

They place the rapture after the trib not before it.

 

[Truther]

They place the rapture after the trib not before it.

...as all the saints are dead by then.

 

[ewq1938]

...as all the saints are dead by then.

Nope. Paul said some will survive and not die. They are raptured and it happens post-trib.

 

[Brakelite]

You are way... off base with your above assumption directed at me. I never had any... such idea as that, and in my post I EXPLAINED WHY... GOD BLINDED THE MAJORITY OF THE JEWS, as Apostle Paul showed in Romans 11.

But it's obvious you have NOT actually studied what Paul taught in Romans 11, and left out the following...

Rom 11:7-11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, 'Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.'

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
KJV

Do you not comprehend what you read? What is Paul saying in the above 11th verse? What does that, "Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:" mean? But instead the reason for their fall was WHAT, according to Paul there?

And such was beautifully fulfilled when Israel rejected their Messiah and through their rejection prompted the gospel to be carried to the gentiles.
KJV Acts 13:46-47
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

And what was the result of this rejection by Israel of their God in killing Him?
KJV Acts 6:7
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

And why was all this necessary,? I don't mean the preaching of the gospel of course, but why the Jews first? Why was it that...
KJV Acts 13:46
It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you...?

in order to fulfil Daniel 9. 70 weeks were appointed as a time of particular probationary period for Israel to get their act together. The Messiah came at the appointed time.
69 weeks, 483 years from 457BC to 27AD was the precise time of Jesus's baptism and His anointing by the holy Spirit for ministry. That left one prophetic week. 7 years, during which time the gospel of salvation through their Messiah was presented first by Jesus personally to the time of His death in 31AD, them for 3 1/2 years by the apostles. It was about 34SD that Stephen was sinned. His speech was an arraignment against the rulers of the nation, that speech was the prophet's last call to repentance before the 70 weeks was fulfilled. The rulers shut their ears and rushed upon Stephen to kill him. In from the nation that single act by the nation's rulers, they shut off the kingdom of God from the nation. It did not shut off the kingdom of the kingdom or the gospel from any individual of that nation. But the church became God's chosen vehicle for proclaiming the gospel to the end of the world, and thus was prophecy fulfilled.

 

[Truther]

Nope. Paul said some will survive and not die. They are raptured and it happens post-trib.

Rev 14 says most will die.

The third angel says go and die. It is written to people all over the Earth. And it exhorts them to die gracefully.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 14 says most will die.

The third angel says go and die. It is written to people all over the Earth. And it exhorts them to die gracefully.

Some survive:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Truther]

Nope. Paul said some will survive and not die. They are raptured and it happens post-trib.

…..as the wrath of God kills most saints beforehand.

 

[Keraz]

…..as the wrath of God kills most saints beforehand.

Quite wrong.
The Lord protects his own, thru the disasters of the Sixth Seal and the Great Tribulation. Those who prove themselves worthy, by standing firm in their faith and trusting His protection, will be alive to go with Jesus into the Millennium. Rev 5:9-10

 

[Truther]

Quite wrong.
The Lord protects his own, thru the disasters of the Sixth Seal and the Great Tribulation. Those who prove themselves worthy, by standing firm in their faith and trusting His protection, will be alive to go with Jesus into the Millennium. Rev 5:9-10

Is there gonna be a safety bubble over you as all of your unsaved family members die before your eyes during the great tribulation? Something like Star Wars?

 

[Brakelite]

Is there gonna be a safety bubble over you as all of your unsaved family members die before your eyes during the great tribulation? Something like Star Wars?

Sadly, family members could very well become our most dangerous enemies in those final days. We aren't going to be hanging around town during the time of the mark of the beast. We may not be able to hide from government, but we can at least place ourselves in a place of safety from the civil unrest and rampant crime that will decimate society. God will protect us, just as He protected Israel in Egypt.

 

[ewq1938]

…..as the wrath of God kills most saints beforehand.

lol...no. The wrath of God does not kill any saints. You are confusing the wrath of God for what does kill the saints, the wrath of satan mentioned in Rev 12.

 

[ewq1938]

Sadly, family members could very well become our most dangerous enemies in those final days. We aren't going to be hanging around town during the time of the mark of the beast. We may not be able to hide from government, but we can at least place ourselves in a place of safety from the civil unrest and rampant crime that will decimate society. God will protect us, just as He protected Israel in Egypt.

Rev 12-13 and other scriptures are clear Christians will be killed in the GT. I'd say the majority are killed with a minority that survive, according to Paul.

 

[Truther]

Sadly, family members could very well become our most dangerous enemies in those final days. We aren't going to be hanging around town during the time of the mark of the beast. We may not be able to hide from government, but we can at least place ourselves in a place of safety from the civil unrest and rampant crime that will decimate society. God will protect us, just as He protected Israel in Egypt.

The angel in revelation 14 tells those that are not going to take the mark when presented to them to go ahead and prepare to die. Not a good place to be.

 

[Truther]

lol...no. The wrath of God does not kill any saints. You are confusing the wrath of God for what does kill the saints, the wrath of satan mentioned in Rev 12.

The Earth will be decimated by plagues. I guess all of the Saints are going to be ordered to become preppers?