The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Keraz]

What you are saying must mean you have a different Bible than I've ever read. I use the KJV mostly.

Ezekiel 40 thru 48 is future Millennium reign time by Christ and His elect on earth, and involves a Millennium sanctuary with the details of that future sanctuary given specifically. And that will... involve the restoration of the BELIEVING 'seed' of the children of Israel back to the promised lands, to INCLUDE believing Gentiles with them. Then the last verse of Ezekiel 48 points to God's future Kingdom of the new heavens and a new earth.

That explains your confusion. Why don't you take advantage of modern translations?

Ezekiel 40 to 48 simply cannot be after Jesus has Returned. Read it all again, carefully. Their Leader has children - Ezekiel 46:16

 

[TribulationSigns]

That explains your confusion. Why don't you take advantage of modern translations?

This one should be self-evident. Just open your eyes and look around. Did you see the church improving with any of these new versions? At all? I saw a steady decline of understanding in the church. Did you see the church gaining a much better knowledge of the scriptures when these new versions were introduced? Truthfully? Because I sure didn't. So you tell me, what really was the REAL profit (besides in the pockets of those producing them) of all the new versions in bringing better understanding or knowledge? Sure, people claim to better understand, but the proof is in the pudding. And the pudding is perceptively worse than it was before the new versions. So say what they will, they didn't receive a better understanding, a clearer grasp of the word, nor a better knowledge from these new versions. Christians have become more unfaithful, not more attuned to God. All they received was the spirit to say they were enlightened for appearance's sake. In "truth", better understanding doesn't come from new versions. It comes from the Spirit.

Proverbs 18:15

• "The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge."

Better knowledge of the scriptures is NOT the product of newer translations or modern versions, it comes from the fruit of the Spirit. Seeking a new translation is actually contrary to seeking wisdom and knowledge (In my humble opinion). And yet, you will have Christians swear by these modern translations as if the modern versions have literally changed their lives and loosed them from the burdensome chain of the KJV. ...it's all a farce. There's nothing new or additional to be gleaned in any of these modern versions.

In conclusion, my view is that some traditions are Biblical and worth keeping. Marriage Covenants/Ceremonies, Sola Scriptura, Resurrection Sunday, Thanksgiving, ...and the KJV of the Bible.

Ezekiel 40 to 48 simply cannot be after Jesus has Returned. Read it all again, carefully. Their Leader has children - Ezekiel 46:16

The Prince is the king and leader of Israel and his spiritual children are Elects from the Old and New Testament ocngregaiton which the temple represents where Christ offered sacrifice himself for His people. It was indeed Jesus Christ, who can enter by the same east gate of the inner court that God entered in Ezekiel 43, the true prince of the restoration is identified with Jesus in a special way.

The point is that the prince of the restoration identifies himself with his people in leading them into God's presence. Moreover, the prince offers sacrifices (vv. 4–7). The king in ancient Israel occasionally offered sacrifices (1 Chron. 16:1–3), but the priests alone offered the regular offerings. Ezekiel's prince has an even greater role in the community's regular worship.

Jesus fulfills Ezekiel's vision of the prince. He is identified with both Yahweh and His people, being truly God and truly man (John 1:1–18). And He offered the only sacrifice needed for us to come regularly before God—the once-for-all sacrifice of Himself (Heb. 9:11–28).
So the temple of Ezkeil 40-48 is or will NOT a physical Jewish temple, but symbolically the New Testament congregation of Israel, the church.

 

[covenantee]

Your point, that you keep going on like a kid in kindergarten. You can sit there in that kindergarten lecture if that is your obsession.

I understand the difference between "racist" and "not racist"; no lecture necessary.

Let's do something useful, such as discuss Scripture.

What does "not of thy seed" in Genesis 17:12 mean?

 

[Timtofly]

I understand the difference between "racist" and "not racist"; no lecture necessary.

Let's do something useful, such as discuss Scripture.

What does "not of thy seed" in Genesis 17:12 mean?

I am not talking about Abraham. The thread is talking about real individuals alive on earth at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, after the church has been removed to Paradise, the 5th Seal.

You keep having a one sided conversation with your self every time you reply to my post.

 

[covenantee]

I am not talking about Abraham. The thread is talking about real individuals alive on earth at the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, after the church has been removed to Paradise, the 5th Seal.

You keep having a one sided conversation with your self every time you reply to my post.

Do you think Abraham is irrelevant to the 144,000?

 

[Timtofly]

Do you think Abraham is irrelevant to the 144,000?

I think your point is irrelevant to the thread.

 

[covenantee]

I think your point is irrelevant to the thread.

I think you're unwilling to answer.

This thread is entitled "The 144,000 before God at the end." My question is about the 144,000 and Abraham. He's relevant.

My question is asking for your point.

Don't be afraid.

 

[Timtofly]

I think you're unwilling to answer.

This thread is entitled "The 144,000 before God at the end." My question is about the 144,000 and Abraham. He's relevant.

My question is asking for your point.

Don't be afraid.

I gave my point from the beginning, and continuously, that these 144k are literal individuals alive on the earth at the time of the Second Coming, and do not represent the church of all humanity from Enoch until today.

So I covered several points. The 144k are not symbolic, but actual humans. The church has been gathered by God, since Enoch left the earth. The church does not need the 144k to represent the entire spectrum of redeemed throughout history.

Abraham has physically been enjoying Paradise in a permanent incorruptible physical body since Resurrection Sunday. He is not symbolically represented by today's 144k actual humans, as he can represent his own physical presence in Paradise quite spectacularly.

 

[covenantee]

I gave my point from the beginning, and continuously, that these 144k are literal individuals alive on the earth at the time of the Second Coming, and do not represent the church of all humanity from Enoch until today.

So I covered several points. The 144k are not symbolic, but actual humans. The church has been gathered by God, since Enoch left the earth. The church does not need the 144k to represent the entire spectrum of redeemed throughout history.

Abraham has physically been enjoying Paradise in a permanent incorruptible physical body since Resurrection Sunday. He is not symbolically represented by today's 144k actual humans, as he can represent his own physical presence in Paradise quite spectacularly.

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

God directed Abraham to include both his faithful obedient descendants (born in the house) and faithful obedient non-descendants (not of thy seed) in the nascent nation of the children of Israel.

The 144,000 also includes both.

 

[Davy]

That explains your confusion. Why don't you take advantage of modern translations?

I would NEVER... take your advice to rely upon 'modern' Bible translations, and that is obviously what YOUR problem is being caused by, with your getting the timelines of Scripture out of order.

And I wonder who you really think you are fooling here, because ANYONE that simply reads the Ezekiel 47 Chapter knows that is speaking of the future Millennial temple that will manifest on this earth after Christ's future return, and manifesting along with that future 1,000 years temple will be the return of God's River of the Waters of Life upon the earth, and the Tree of Life on either side of that River.

So someone who claims they 'know' what those Ezekiel 40 thru 48 Chapters teach, but then 'deny' all that, reveals they have come here to tell LIES against God's written Word!

Ezek 47:7-12
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

NOW... I remember why I had you on my IGNORE LIST! Welcome back to it.

 

[Hobie]

The 'hardening of the Jews' is entirely their own doing. God has given them plenty of time and opportunity to accept Jesus as Messiah. They refuse and God will do as is Prophesied; destroy them and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14. Romans 9:27

Now you are getting closer to the truth..

 

[Davy]

Now you are getting closer to the truth..

Well no, Keraz is not correct about his idea of the hardening of the Jews being their own fault.

Apostle Paul in Romans 11 warned those in Christ against believing that kind of idea about his brethren the Jews, and Paul used the idea of 'conceit' for those who do keep such a false idea...

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Further up in Romans 11:7-11 Paul showed that GOD Himself is Who placed that "blindness" upon the majority of the Jews. Above Paul shows God is going to remove it in the future, when that "fulness of the Gentiles be come in."


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Is GOD able to take away their sins and save them? Those like Keraz that says they are going to perish because of rejecting Christ during this world, are those equal to GOD? No, Keraz is NOT GOD. Nor does he have any authority to claim who specifically is going to perish in the future "lake of fire"! Keraz is Biblically ignorant, going directly against what Apostle Paul has taught right here in Romans 11.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

 

[Hobie]

That explains your confusion. Why don't you take advantage of modern translations?

Ezekiel 40 to 48 simply cannot be after Jesus has Returned. Read it all again, carefully. Their Leader has children - Ezekiel 46:16

You cannot trust many of the Modern Versions, that is a real issue..

 

[Davy]

We have things becoming very clear and unveiling right before our eyes in these last days, so lets take a look at those who will be standing before God as the 144,000..

“1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”Revelation 14:1-5.

Now those who stand at the end while Christ still intercedes for us in the Most Holy Place will need to like Him. Christ kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the end

So we have a world who are not all Gods people, composed of two groups, the true followers of God and then the others whose hearts and minds are not cleansed and not ready for Christ, this is the church militant. So there are those on the side of Satan will be left out and will perish, and the people who are His, sealed and prepared to go with Christ to His kingdowm.

We find in 2 Corinthians 1:21-23

“21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts”

So the saints throughout the ages have been sealed, and yet those who are the 144,000 also need to be sealed as they prepare for the coming of the Lord. Now is the time to prepare, not at when its too late and Christ has appeared and probation closed. The seal of God needs to be put on His people before the Second Coming, but some think they can continue in sin and iniquity till Christ comes.

Hebrews describes the role of Jesus as our mediator in heaven. We read in John 16:25-27..

“25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”

So a time will come when Jesus will not pray to the Father on our behalf, because we will know that “the Father himself loves us.” In John 16, Jesus promises us a time will come when we won’t have a mediator because we won’t need one for those that truly know and love Christ. So the 144,000 are sealed and alive at the Second Coming and stand without a mediator, but then why only 144,000. I think we can find that answer in the following verse, Daniel 12:1...

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1.

The time of trouble such as never was will be devastating, and many even of the saints will not live through it and be put to sleep in the grave during this time. It is the living saints who are the 144,000 at the end, while those saints asleep in Christ who are sealed, will be brought up in the clouds to be taken to heaven.

That is mostly balderdash from the false doctrines of the Pre-trib Rapture doctors.

The real Biblical meaning of the 144,000 is this:

1. Revelation 7 reveals the 144,000 are BELIEVING Israelites out of the 12 tribes of Israel mentioned there. And... that they are SEALED with God's SEAL in prep to go through the coming "great tribulation". See Ephesians 4:30 that shows being 'sealed' is by The Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. That means until Christ's future 2nd coming on the last day of this world to gather us.

Thus the OP's hints to the Church leaving prior to the "great tribulation" are false, and is of man's false doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture. Christ's Church will go through the "great tribulation", which is why Eph.4:30 said those in Christ are 'sealed' unto the 'day of redemption', meaning unto Christ's future return, which He showed in Matthew 24:29-31 His return to gather His Church will be AFTER... the tribulation.

2. Revelation 9 reveals the locusts are allowed to 'sting' only those NOT sealed with God's SEAL. That means Christ's Church are not subject to that 'stinging', and nor does it mean we have to physically leave for that to be so. Therefore, that event reveals what God's sealing at the end is actually for. It is for spiritual protection against what comes out of the locust's mouths and out of the mouth of the serpent. It is so Christ's faithful Church will not be tempted by Satan who is coming to play God on earth, working miracles to deceive with.

3. The 144,000 of Revelation 7 thus refer ONLY to believing Israelites in Christ's Church sealed in prep for the coming tribulation.

4. The "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 are about the believing Gentiles that are sealed to go through the great tribulation. Man's false pre-trib rapture theory instead tries to say these are raptured to heaven by Christ prior to the "great tribulation", but that idea is false. They refuse... to notice that John seeing these at Jesus' throne is NOT about a rapture prior to the trib, because events of the future "thousand years" Millennium are given along with it, which means, after the 'end' of this present world, and into Christ's future reign over ALL peoples and nations, including the wicked!

 

[Truther]

The rapture is going to happen prior to the tribulation. Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4-5 are talking about the exact same subject. I can prove it. You gotta be real careful less you are swept into the tribulation and take the mark of the beast.
Not a one of you spiritual Rambos could make it past Revelation chapter 6.

You will be crying for the rocks to fall on you and hide you from the wrath of God.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I can prove it.

Prove it then.

You gotta be real careful less you are swept into the tribulation and take the mark of the beast.

You already missed that the tribulation already here, and the mark of the beast has been enforced on those who have not yet sealed by God, Revelation 9.

Not a one of you spiritual Rambos could make it past Revelation chapter 6. You will be crying for the rocks to fall on you and hide you from the wrath of God.

Do you realize that in the movie Rambo wins in the end?

You do not even know exactly who are the kings of the Earth, great men, and rich men, chief captains, mighty men, bondman, free men are, do you? If you do, explain who they are in God's eyes?

 

[Berean]

1. Revelation 7 reveals the 144,000 are BELIEVING Israelites out of the 12 tribes of Israel mentioned there. And... that they are SEALED with God's SEAL in prep to go through the coming "great tribulation". See Ephesians 4:30 that shows being 'sealed' is by The Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. That means until Christ's future 2nd coming on the last day of this world to gather us.

Where does scripture say that the 144,000 "go through the coming "great tribulation"."?

 

[Truther]

Prove it then.


You already missed that the tribulation already here, and the mark of the beast has been enforced on those who have not yet sealed by God, Revelation 9.


Do you realize that in the movie Rambo wins in the end?

You do not even know exactly who are the kings of the Earth, great men, and rich men, chief captains, mighty men, bondman, free men are, do you? If you do, explain who they are in God's eyes?

Paul in first Thessalonians chapter 4 and 5 was quoting Jesus when Jesus talked about the catching away. Jesus said that those that would be caught away, and those that would be left behind were the subject. Those that are caught away are in the rapture of the church and those that are left behind to be wiped out are left to go through the tribulation. Paol quotes Jesus’ Jesus passage in Thessalonians. He quotes him verbatim.

Jesus in the passage speaks of the catching away, a thief, then a drunken servant. Paul, likewise in Thessalonians talks about the catching away, a thief, and then a drunken servant. Both of these passages are in this exact order.
Paul starts Thessalonians by saying this we say by the word of the Lord. he was just quoting Jesus something that everybody already knew about.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Paul in first Thessalonians chapter 4 and 5 was quoting Jesus when Jesus talked about the catching away. Jesus said that those that would be caught away, and those that would be left behind were the subject. Those that are caught away are in the rapture of the church and those that are left behind to be wiped out are left to go through the tribulation.

1st Thess 4 and 5 do not talk about the left behind and the tribulation. You are reading into it.

Paol quotes Jesus’ Jesus passage in Thessalonians. He quotes him verbatim.

It still does not prove your position.

Jesus in the passage speaks of the catching away, a thief, then a drunken servant. Paul, likewise in Thessalonians talks about the catching away, a thief, and then a drunken servant. Both of these passages are in this exact order.

You do not understand what it says. The Lord is talking about those who are spiritually drunk and not ready when Christ comes. Nothing is said about them being "left behind" here in Thessalonians

Paul starts Thessalonians by saying this we say by the word of the Lord. he was just quoting Jesus something that everybody already knew about.

So what is your point?

 

[Truther]

1st Thess 4 and 5 do not talk about the left behind and the tribulation. You are reading into it.




It still does not prove your position.



You do not understand what it says. The Lord is talking about those who are spiritually drunk and not ready when Christ comes. Nothing is said about them being "left behind" here in Thessalonians



So what is your point?

My point is, Jesus was first to speak of one taken, and the other left…now, the other left is left where? In the great tribulation. Just like Noah’s flood the people that were left out of the ark perished. First Thes 4 has Paul quoting the words of Jesus in Matthew 24. which shows us that the catching away precedes the great tribulation. Paul speaks of the same event that Jesus spoke of.
Simply, Paul is quoting Jesus.