The “Return” of Christ: What Does it Mean?

[ScottA]

Let's look at it together.. 1 Cor:15:19-28

19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

So we are clear.. you see v 19-23 as accomplished once we receive Christ. ?
-- and now we are awaiting the end? v 24

If I understand you correctly, yes. Paul referred to the times between spiritually receiving Christ (at His knocking, thus return) and the end, as "we who are alive and remain." Meaning, unlike Israel who died in their sins but were included in Christ (as the dead in Christ), we who are made alive by the Spirit are indeed alive, but remain in the flesh and in the world until the passing of the body.

It is then at that point that things can no longer only be viewed historically, but as "in Christ", as we "were" crucified with Him. Which then also brings about the better perspective of things even written in "past tense" in the gospels, just as is the case with "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world", or "before Abraham was, I am." All of which, Paul was not negligent, but clearly said, requires the "renewing of your mind."

 

[PS95]

If I understand you correctly, yes. Paul referred to the times between spiritually receiving Christ (at His knocking, thus return) and the end, as "we who are alive and remain." Meaning, unlike Israel who died in their sins but were included in Christ (as the dead in Christ), we who are made alive by the Spirit are indeed alive, but remain in the flesh and in the world until the passing of the body.

It is then at that point that things can no longer only be viewed historically, but as "in Christ", as we "were" crucified with Him. Which then also brings about the better perspective of things even written in "past tense" in the gospels, just as is the case with "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world", or "before Abraham was, I am." All of which, Paul was not negligent, but clearly said, requires the "renewing of your mind."

Ok. I don't agree that is what Paul is saying. I don't know how long you have held this position. I imagine you've encountered the verses below?
1 Cor 6:14
1 Cor 15:52
1 Thes 4:16

 

[ScottA]

Ok. I don't agree that is what Paul is saying. I don't know how long you have held this position. I imagine you've encountered the verses below?
1 Cor 6:14
1 Cor 15:52
1 Thes 4:16

Yes, I have.

However, the issue is one of translation and understanding spiritually.

As such, each of those tells of the events that occur once in Christ, for all. Meaning at that very moment in Christ, only experience by all who are in Him in their own time, which are the times of men appointed by God. Therefore, He said, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

 

[Matthias]

I do believe Jesus was a real man, a male human person, with a real biological body, who was nursed by his mother, had to learn to talk and walk, got the diseases from childhood, and was exposed to the temptations all human person has, but without sin.

Are you familiar with the technical term “crypto-Gnostic”?

 

[PS95]

Yes, I have.

However, the issue is one of translation and understanding spiritually.

As such, each of those tells of the events that occur once in Christ, for all. Meaning at that very moment in Christ, only experience by all who are in Him in their own time, which are the times of men appointed by God. Therefore, He said, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

1 Cor 6:14 paul is speaking to those who already received Christ. He didnt tell them they are already raised.
He said they will be.
It says what it says.
I have never heard this one before. So, sorry, I don't have much more now off the top of my head while replying to multiple people.
But, when we "spiritualize" verses we also need to check to be sure it harmonizes with all of scripture.
Nice to meet you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Eternal life is the life of the age to come; which will come when Jesus himself returns. It is immortality and the future for the disciples of Jesus living in the present evil age.

Can I ask you Matthias, what was the life that God intended for humans at the beginning?
Did he offer them immortality or everlasting life? Is there a difference?
Immortality is defined as “the power of an indestructible life”.
Was Adam created “immortal”? Or was it “everlasting life” that was granted on the provision of his obedience? What was the difference? How could the death penalty be carried out on an immortal being?
Why was access to the “tree of life” denied and closely guarded so that no sinful human could partake of it?

At 1 Tim 6:13-16….Paul identifies Jesus as the one “alone having immortality”…
“Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.”

Since an immortal cannot die, was the death of Christ real?
When did he become “immortal” if he wasn’t before? Only a mortal being can die.
What and when is “the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ”?

When Paul wrote those words, Jesus was the only human who was resurrected “immortal”. It opened the way for his disciples to also receive the same resurrection as he did…..that was being “baptized into his death”.
Rom 6:3-4…
”Or do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 So we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in a newness of life.”

The question that must be asked then is…..”who is ”all of us”……”WE”, in that statement?
When are these ones “raised up from the dead”? Does this resurrection apply to all Christians? (Rev 20:6)
What is this “newness of life” that he speaks about, and where is it to be lived?

We can also ask…..”are the angels created immortal”? If so…..can God destroy those immortal beings?
The Bible says that satan and his cronies will ultimately be ‘destroyed’ in the lake of fire.

Can you explain what you believe about these things?

 

[PS95]

JW’s do not believe in a bodily resurrection of Christ

The Lord lied to Thomas ? .. Luke 24-
39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.

It wasn't really His body like he stated? He got another body and added wounds to make it look like it was really him?

So if Jesus is to come again…..it will not be in the flesh, because no reincarnation is necessary.
….neither “Christianity” nor Baha’i have it right.

IF Jesus were to come again? He said he would. Did He lie again?

We know that Jws teach that in 1914 Jesus returned (secretively) but it was invisible so no one knows but you.
Look, he's in the secret (inner) chambers!!!! Do not believe them.
So, we don't believe that. The Lord teaches His sheep, and they hear HIm.
Believe Him, not man.
Reincarnation? NO need for that! lol
Jws vs Christians?- Christians dont teach that when we die we pay for our sins. We KNOW that Jesus already paid for our sins. We are washed in His blood. Romans 6:7 IS NOT speaking about PHYSICAL DEATH. Read the context.

Jesus is not going to return as a human…..his body was sacrificed for mankind…he did not take it back.

His Body ROSE. That's a resurrection! They watched Him go up into the clouds. they weren't seeing a spirit but a spiritual body.
Michaels' "impersonal life force did not go back to heaven while Jesus' body dissolved into gases"! Jws just make stuff up!

His life paid a debt that was owed to God on behalf of the human race, brought to an imperfect sinful condition of the flesh by the actions of three rebels who individually made choices that brought pain, suffering and death to the human race. Each made their own choices for their own selfish reasons…..Christ made a choice to but a completely unselfish one…the rescue mission.

Jesus paid for Adam and Eve's sin- we agree.
BUT that is not all he accomplished. His "rescue mission" also paid for the sins of those who believe in Him.
You know there are many many verse to support this.

 

[ScottA]

1 Cor 6:14 paul is speaking to those who already received Christ. He didnt tell them they are already raised.
He said they will be.
It says what it says.
I have never heard this one before. So, sorry, I don't have much more now off the top of my head while replying to multiple people.
But, when we "spiritualize" verses we also need to check to be sure it harmonizes with all of scripture.
Nice to meet you.

You are not reconciling all scripture.

The context is Paul in the midst of times speaking to those who did not yet understand that all things occurred (past tense) in Christ, who may never in their lifetime come to understand it...just as it has been since then even for those who could have reconciled all as it was written and did not. In which case Paul was correct, and will be, until all is reconciled as in Christ in God in whom their is no passing of time.

Meanwhile, all truth was promised and yet sealed until the time of the end, following false teachers entering the church teaching destructible doctrines to be believed causing strong delusion. If one can acknowledge these things as all being foretold, then and only then, can the truth be known, for until then all these things are in effect...just as it is written.

For this same reason this same blindness in part came upon Israel, until the times are fulfilled. As such, most in Israel rejected the truth of Christ when the times were upon them. History has repeated. Even so, what was restrained was not to be restrained forever, but revealed at the end of times.

Have I not told you that taking away the perspective of time and instead seeing all things in Christ, is what is all the more true? This is that time foretold. But again, many will reject what has now come.

As for spiritualizing--this is the way of God, whom is spirit, holy, and perfect.

 

[PS95]

You are not reconciling all scripture.

The context is Paul in the midst of times speaking to those who did not yet understand that all things occurred (past tense) in Christ, who may never in their lifetime come to understand it...just as it has been since then even for those who could have reconciled all as it was written and did not. In which case Paul was correct, and will be, until all is reconciled as in Christ in God in whom their is no passing of time.

Meanwhile, all truth was promised and yet sealed until the time of the end, following false teachers entering the church teaching destructible doctrines to be believed causing strong delusion. If one can acknowledge these things as all being foretold, then and only then, can the truth be known, for until then all these things are in effect...just as it is written.

For this same reason this same blindness in part came upon Israel, until the times are fulfilled. As such, most in Israel rejected the truth of Christ when the times were upon them. History has repeated. Even so, what was restrained was not to be restrained forever, but revealed at the end of times.

Have I not told you that taking away the perspective of time and instead seeing all things in Christ, is what is all the more true? This is that time foretold. But again, many will reject what has now come.

As for spiritualizing--this is the way of God, whom is spirit, holy, and perfect.

I don't agree with this. I really dont want to go off onto this tangent now.

 

[Aunty Jane]

AAAAAACCCCCK! The Angles are male but there is no sexual activity in the Spiritual Realm. And as former humans we will not intriduce such activity.

There is no physical gender in the spirit realm….all gender related statements in the Bible refer to the headship arrangement that Paul speaks about.
“But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:3) Even Christ is subject to God.

In the GoE God created male and female…..
1) For reproductive purposes.
2) For an arrangement of order in gender assigned roles. Each had their assignment and the roles complemented one another. Headship was never dictatorship. It was a way to prevent competition and to promote cooperation and harmony in those roles. In God’s eyes both roles were important in their own way.

For God to represent himself as anything but male would have rendered those assignments, redundant.
In a motor vehicle there is one driver who has complete control of the vehicle. His passenger can be a navigator to support his role as the driver, but the navigator is not to rip control of the vehicle out of the driver’s hands…the vehicle would soon crash. God appointed one driver….the man, which was a responsibility, not a right.

Angels too are subject to their Creator…..these are always depicted as male……and there is just one Archangel (Michael) who is the Commander of all these angels. So again we see order is maintained if all keep to their God assigned roles…..only when they abuse their free will and step outside of those roles, or who do not respect the role of those working with them and destroy the harmony.…this is a recipe for trouble. Sin just compounds the whole issue.….

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Are you familiar with the technical term “crypto-Gnostic”?

No, Matthias. I'm not.
I can imagine what it is based on the etymology, but I don' know anything more than that. Please explain

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

At 1 Tim 6:13-16….Paul identifies Jesus as the one “alone having immortality”…
“Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.”

Sorry for jumping in.
Just wanted to comment that Paul is identifying God as the "one alone having immortality". It is YHWH, the Father of Jesus, who alone has immortality, dwells in unapproachable light, and whom no man has seen or can see.

Perhaps the Modern English Translation may help:

I command you, in the sight of God, who gives life to all things, and in the sight of Christ Jesus, who testified a good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 to keep this commandment without blemish, blameless until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He, who is the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, will reveal at the proper time. 16 He alone has immortality, living in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen, nor can see. To Him be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

"He", the subject of the sentence in green, is God, the Agent who will reveal "our Lord Jesus Christ" (direct object, in purple) at the proper time.

 

[ScottA]

I don't agree with this. I really dont want to go off onto this tangent now.

You are among the many.

 

[Matthias]

Can I ask you Matthias, what was the life that God intended for humans at the beginning?
Did he offer them immortality or everlasting life? Is there a difference?
Immortality is defined as “the power of an indestructible life”.
Was Adam created “immortal”? Or was it “everlasting life” that was granted on the provision of his obedience? What was the difference? How could the death penalty be carried out on an immortal being?
Why was access to the “tree of life” denied and closely guarded so that no sinful human could partake of it?

At 1 Tim 6:13-16….Paul identifies Jesus as the one “alone having immortality”…
“Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.”

Since an immortal cannot die, was the death of Christ real?
When did he become “immortal” if he wasn’t before? Only a mortal being can die.
What and when is “the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ”?

When Paul wrote those words, Jesus was the only human who was resurrected “immortal”. It opened the way for his disciples to also receive the same resurrection as he did…..that was being “baptized into his death”.
Rom 6:3-4…
”Or do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 So we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in a newness of life.”

The question that must be asked then is…..”who is ”all of us”……”WE”, in that statement?
When are these ones “raised up from the dead”? Does this resurrection apply to all Christians? (Rev 20:6)
What is this “newness of life” that he speaks about, and where is it to be lived?

We can also ask…..”are the angels created immortal”? If so…..can God destroy those immortal beings?
The Bible says that satan and his cronies will ultimately be ‘destroyed’ in the lake of fire.

Can you explain what you believe about these things?

Yes, but I’m exhausted just thinking about it.

 

[PS95]

You are among the many.

I told you. I never heard this before. At some point I will look into what you are saying a bit further. I'll look you up.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

As for spiritualizing--this is the way of God, whom is spirit, holy, and perfect.

Hi ScottA

I have a strong tendency to spiritualize the meaning of the Scriptures. Spiritual things must be understood spiritually.

However, while I do recognize a spiritual meaning of the Second Coming of Jesus as the spiritual "deployment" of the Kingdom of God in the heart of the individual ("The kingdom of God is among you"), I also recognize that men (Israel, early Christians, and almost every civilization on earth) have longed for a "Kingdom" of material and social prosperity.

It would be absurd to think that Jesus can transform the life of individuals without positively affecting their families, friends, colleagues, communities. Once the Light of Christ dwells in a person, that lights illuminates his/her environment and make other people "glorify God".
So, I do believe in a material, historical, collective Kingdom of God, in addition to the spiritual, atemporal, individual Kingdom of God.

One leads to another, and both feed each other back.

 

[Matthias]

No, Matthias. I'm not.
I can imagine what it is based on the etymology, but I don' know anything more than that. Please explain

“Crypto” means a person who secretly supports or adheres to a group or belief.

A Crypto-Gnostic is a person who adheres to Gnostic belief, at least to some extent.

Your belief about a pre-death Jesus (who really is a human person / being) isn’t compatible with Gnostic Christianity (he only appeared to be a human person / being) but your post-death Jesus belief is.

I had people from various religious / theological backgrounds in the classroom when I was still teaching. Some of the students were Origenists (if you’ve read Origen you’ll know what I mean - allegory, allegory, allegory - I dread reading Origen, and this reminds me that I still need to circle back to my Bitter Creek and resume my reading / re-reading him. Mano a mano again with Origen.)

In the classroom, or even in discussions outside the classroom, I would speak about something being “spooked up” - you brought that to my mind when you said (in post #38) “the importance of resurrection does not lie on the literal meanings, but the spiritual meanings.”

A non-physical Jesus sounds like a phantom, a ghost, a spook, an invisible non-human being to me.

Baha’i Jesus is, in the language I would have used with those particular students, “spooked up”.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sorry for jumping in.
Just wanted to comment that Paul is identifying God as the "one alone having immortality". It is YHWH, the Father of Jesus, who alone has immortality, dwells in unapproachable light, and whom no man has seen or can see.

Perhaps the Modern English Translation may help:

I command you, in the sight of God, who gives life to all things, and in the sight of Christ Jesus, who testified a good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 to keep this commandment without blemish, blameless until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He, who is the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, will reveal at the proper time. 16 He alone has immortality, living in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen, nor can see. To Him be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

"He", the subject of the sentence in green, is God, the Agent who will reveal "our Lord Jesus Christ" (direct object, in purple) at the proper time.

Well taking Revelation 19:11:16…
”I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.”

Here Christ is depicted as the Warrior King.…he is called “The Word of God”…a title given only to Jesus.
He is the Commander of angels and he is clearly the judge and executioner of the nations before him. He carries the title “King of King and Lord of Lords”.
So, I have to disagree with you on this…..

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, but I’m exhausted just thinking about it.

Shame about that….it’s those details that answers so many other questions that all contribute the big picture……do you have a big picture Matthias?

 

[ScottA]

Hi ScottA

I have a strong tendency to spiritualize the meaning of the Scriptures. Spiritual things must be understood spiritually.

However, while I do recognize a spiritual meaning of the Second Coming of Jesus as the spiritual "deployment" of the Kingdom of God in the heart of the individual ("The kingdom of God is among you"), I also recognize that men (Israel, early Christians, and almost every civilization on earth) have longed for a "Kingdom" of material and social prosperity.

It would be absurd to think that Jesus can transform the life of individuals without positively affecting their families, friends, colleagues, communities. Once the Light of Christ dwells in a person, that lights illuminates his/her environment and make other people "glorify God".
So, I do believe in a material, historical, collective Kingdom of God, in addition to the spiritual, atemporal, individual Kingdom of God.

One leads to another, and both feed each other back.

That assumes there is one story to the structure.

To the contrary, what is above is greater and to be attained, leaving that which is lower swallowed up in the actual glory of God which is above. "Follow" means to ascend as He ascended, not here, but actually unto what is now unseen and yet promised...even if beyond our present imagination.