The “Return” of Christ: What Does it Mean?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Pancho Frijoles

Active Member
May 22, 2024
477
163
43
57
Mexico City
Faith
Other Faith
Country
Mexico
I was speaking this morning with a colleague of mine who lives in Atlanta. We were discussing, among other things, the Baha’i religion. He said that Baha’i sounds similar to him to the Unitarian Universalists.
I think we share with Unitarian Universalist two important tenets: the belief in God as One Single Being, and universal salvation (although the term is rarely used in Baha'i theology: we just say that everyone is submerged in God's mercy and will learn about Him eventually).

However, as per my understanding, Unitarian Universalists do not have a well-established theological corpus (they basically admit a very wide variety of beliefs). Baha'i Faith is rather a revealed religion, with a Scriptural corpus and defined doctrines and perspectives about the future, and a very defined worldwide organization.

I have attended by Internet religious a couple of services of the Unitarian Universalists, but I didn't like it: I saw professional preachers trying to entertain their audience.
In baha'i meetings you get a more community-based experience: there is no separation between clergy and the members. No intention to entertain, but to share.

Perhaps Quakers are closer in the way we experience religion. I've heard how whenever Quakers and Baha'is meet, each other, they feel immediately a connection. Have you attended a quaker service?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Matthias

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
11,359
5,968
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
I think we share with Unitarian Universalist two important tenets: the belief in God as One Single Being, and universal salvation (although the term is rarely used in Baha'i theology: we just say that everyone is submerged in God's mercy and will learn about Him eventually).

However, as per my understanding, Unitarian Universalists do not have a well-established theological corpus (they basically admit a very wide variety of beliefs). Baha'i Faith is rather a revealed religion, with a Scriptural corpus and defined doctrines and perspectives about the future, and a very defined worldwide organization.

I have attended by Internet religious a couple of services of the Unitarian Universalists, but I didn't like it: I saw professional preachers trying to entertain their audience.
In baha'i meetings you get a more community-based experience: there is no separation between clergy and the members. No intention to entertain, but to share.

Perhaps Quakers are closer in the way we experience religion. Have you attended a quaker service?

I haven’t attended a Quaker service. I’ve only read about them.
 

Pancho Frijoles

Active Member
May 22, 2024
477
163
43
57
Mexico City
Faith
Other Faith
Country
Mexico
I haven’t attended a Quaker service. I’ve only read about them.
I attended just one. A service of silent prayer and meditation.
People sit in a circle, and after a prayer (or a reading, can't remember) they stay in silent for a whole hour.
Just silence. It was uplifting and powerful.

Quaker members can ask the community to reflect and pray on a given problem or issue, and then express what God revealed to them in their hearts during that hour of silence.
Baha'i don't practice that kind of service but we practice consultation, based on the same principle of Quakers: God also speaks to our minds, putting some pieces here and there, and we bring the pieces together as a collective and take a decision.

I guess that the gift of prophecy in the early Christians had something to do with that... the belief that the Holy Spirit can guide different members towards a new perspective, so an ordered and respectful listening of what members have to say is a way to intepreting Scriptures and God's will for the community.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
11,359
5,968
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
He is our, Father. Fathers are male.
Isaiah --------He.

How shall I put this delicately?

I’m off to the gym, shortly. Jesus would change clothes in a male locker room at the gym, as will I. @Pancho Frijoles was asking if I thought Yahweh would change clothes in a male or female locker room. A question of anatomy.

Yahweh. He (not she) is the one true God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PS95

Pancho Frijoles

Active Member
May 22, 2024
477
163
43
57
Mexico City
Faith
Other Faith
Country
Mexico
He is our, Father. Fathers are male.
Isaiah --------He.

Well, as you can see, the implications of physical bodies are far more complex.
If God is literally a father, and a male, he must have male reproductive organs, or male chromosomes, or male hormones.. otherwise, saying He is male would be meaningless.

According to the Bible, God is spirit. He does not dwell in physical temples. I don't think he needs any place to live.
All heavens and earth "cannot contain Him".
I don't believe that God needs any physical body to move, to think or act. Having a body that occupies a place would also mean he can't be in two places at a time.

Now, if we say that "spiritual bodies" can do anything that departs from the Laws of Physics, what is the point of stating they are physical?
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
11,359
5,968
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
A non-physical Jesus is a Jesus who wouldn’t have a physical body, and couldn’t have been touched and seen. A non-physical Jesus is a Jesus who couldn’t have breathed, or eaten, or walked.

The bodily resurrected Jesus did all of those things, and more.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
11,359
5,968
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gnosticism -> Jesus only appeared to be a man, a male human person.

Primitive Christianity -> Jesus is a man, a male human person.
 

PS95

Active Member
Jun 16, 2024
255
139
43
Eastern Shore
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, as you can see, the implications of physical bodies are far more complex.
If God is literally a father, and a male, he must have male reproductive organs, or male chromosomes, or male hormones.. otherwise, saying He is male would be meaningless.

According to the Bible, God is spirit. He does not dwell in physical temples. I don't think he needs any place to live.
All heavens and earth "cannot contain Him".
I don't believe that God needs any physical body to move, to think or act. Having a body that occupies a place would also mean he can't be in two places at a time.

Now, if we say that "spiritual bodies" can do anything that departs from the Laws of Physics, what is the point of stating they are physical?
Gibberish. I did not say anything about organ or chromosones. Those are your words.
What I did say, is that the scriptures show us plainly that YWWH is a He, a Him and a Father. <-- Simple and as undeniable as that.
 

Pancho Frijoles

Active Member
May 22, 2024
477
163
43
57
Mexico City
Faith
Other Faith
Country
Mexico
Gibberish. I did not say anything about organ or chromosones. Those are your words.
What I did say, is that the scriptures show us plainly that YWWH is a He, a Him and a Father. <-- Simple and as undeniable as that.
We all know you didn't say those words, my brother.
I didn't say you said them. I'm speaking on my behalf, just on my behalf :)

If I have offended you, please forgive me.

All I am trying to say is that if the Scriptures refer to YHWH as He /Him /Father, we should not consider God as a being who is literally "male", because being "male" implies X, Y and Z.

I also refer to God as He /Him but I know it is just a language coming from a patriarchal context and culture.
 

Pancho Frijoles

Active Member
May 22, 2024
477
163
43
57
Mexico City
Faith
Other Faith
Country
Mexico
Gnosticism -> Jesus only appeared to be a man, a male human person.

Primitive Christianity -> Jesus is a man, a male human person.

I do believe Jesus was a real man, a male human person, with a real biological body, who was nursed by his mother, had to learn to talk and walk, got the diseases from childhood, and was exposed to the temptations all human person has, but without sin.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
11,359
5,968
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
I do believe Jesus was a real man, a male human person, with a real biological body, who was nursed by his mother, had to learn to talk and walk, got the diseases from childhood, and was exposed to the temptations all human person has, but without sin.

But that was then (post-conception, pre-birth, pre-death, pre-resurrection); this is now (post-resurrection).

No bodily resurrection and a Jesus who was a human person is no longer a human person. And isn’t himself coming back to the earth. That’s “another Jesus” in the eyes of primitive Christianity; not the real Jesus.

* Back to lifting weights now, to benefit my natural body. *
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pancho Frijoles

PS95

Active Member
Jun 16, 2024
255
139
43
Eastern Shore
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We all know you didn't say those words, my brother.
I didn't say you said them. I'm speaking on my behalf, just on my behalf :)

If I have offended you, please forgive me.

All I am trying to say is that if the Scriptures refer to YHWH as He /Him /Father, we should not consider God as a being who is literally "male", because being "male" implies X, Y and Z.

I also refer to God as He /Him but I know it is just a language coming from a patriarchal context and culture.
I wasn't offended. I just believe God's word. He doesn't lie.
There is never a reference to Him being a her. It's certainly not about a "patriarchal culture".
That's just woke talk. -No thanks.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,953
5,700
113
www.CheeseburgersWithGod.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It sounds like a simple enough question. Right?

“Return.” What does it mean? Is it literal or is it only symbolic?

For the Christian:

Following his bodily resurrection from the grave, Jesus of Nazareth himself ascended into heaven. Jesus of Nazareth himself will return from heaven to the earth, his second coming, at some point yet in the future. Return. Literal.

We’ve learned recently that Baha’i don’t believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah / Christ. Bodily resurrected. - Christianity

Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah / Christ. Not bodily resurrected. - Baha’i

Red flag.

This raises an important question: Do Baha’i believe Jesus himself is returning? Which is to ask, do the Baha’i understand the return of the Messiah / Christ to be literal (as Christianity does) or only symbolic?

”The Baha’i teachings offer a different perspective.”


Dr. Christopher Buck, a faculty instructor at the Willamette Institute, Department of Baha’i History, was raised Christian. He became a Baha’i when he was 22 years old. He tells us his personal story in the article. I’m going to go a little past that transition from Christian to Baha’i and pick up what he says about himself after becoming Baha’i.

“… I had some lingering doubts as to whether Baha’u’llah was indeed the return of Christ, as Baha’i claim.”

He was overjoyed, he says, when he was finally able to put those lingering doubts to rest. He was now all in on the Baha’i religion.

Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ?

Christ has already returned?

Baha’u’llah, not Jesus of Nazareth himself, is the return of Christ?

Red flag.

”So, to sum up, the Baha’i teachings offer a new understanding of the ‘return’ of Christ. It is not a literal return of Jesus Christ. Why? Because that would be reincarnation - a doctrine foreign to Christianity, historically and doctrinally.

Just as John the Baptist, according to the Bible itself, would come ‘in the spirit and power of Elias’ (Luke 1:17), so Baha’u’llah has come in ‘in the spirit and power’ of Jesus Christ, Baha’i believe.

This understanding of ‘return’ has profound implications for appreciating what Baha’i mean when they refer to Baha’u’llah as the ‘return’ of Christ. …”

Baha’i don’t believe in a literal return of Jesus Christ himself. Christians do.

If one believes in the literal return of Jesus Christ, Baha’i points out that this isn’t possible -> that’s reincarnation!, says Baha’i.

Everyone knows, or should know, that the concept of reincarnation isn’t a Christian concept. Christians know it. So too does Baha’i.

Baha’i to the Christian: You believe the Bible is teaching the literal return of Christ. You don’t really understand what the Bible teaches, but we Baha’i do, and we will teach you. The Bible does not teach the literal return of Christ. That’s reincarnation. You’re looking for Jesus himself. The Bible is really teaching us not to look for Jesus himself, but to look for Baha’u’llah.

Does it matter?

”Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!‘ do not believe him. For false messiah’s and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.”

(Matthew 24: 22-24, NET)

“Look, there he is! Baha’u’llah, the returned Christ!” - Baha’i

Do not believe him.

Do not give up on the Christian hope and expectation of the future, literal, bodily return of Jesus of Nazareth himself, the Christ. If you do, you will have been deceived.

P.S.

I neglected to notify @Pancho Frijoles about the creation of this thread. That was an oversight, a mistake, on my part.

Both are incorrect. Both the common Christian belief (as you have stated it), as well as the Baha'i (as you have stated it) are incorrect.

The idea that someone could act in the spirit of Christ is not wrong, as even Paul said, "For me to live, is Christ." But that's not the issue.

The actual issue is what Jesus Himself made clear, saying "the world sees me no more." Alternatively, and this is the error of the common Christian belief-- Jesus described His return in this way, saying, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me" (Revelation 3:20). Which is indeed "literal"--but not his old physical body being zapped into the heart or even the home of those who answer His knock at the door. Which should be considered just crazy...and a clear sign that most Christians have not reconciled all that is written, let alone simply what Jesus said.

The issue here however, is that Christendom has not acknowledged that before ascending into heaven Jesus gave His body to the church, as the "firstfruits" of the spirit of God. Which is to say, that one either acknowledges and believes what He said, or denies that He is actually firstfruits. These are the things foretold as the believing of a "lie" causing "strong delusion"--which is the current state of the church.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pancho Frijoles

PS95

Active Member
Jun 16, 2024
255
139
43
Eastern Shore
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Both are incorrect. Both the common Christian belief (as you have stated it), as well as the Baha'i (as you have stated it) are incorrect.

The idea that someone could act in the spirit of Christ is not wrong, as even Paul said, "For me to live, is Christ." But that's not the issue.

The actual issue is what Jesus Himself made clear, saying "the world sees me no more." Alternatively, and this is the error of the common Christian belief-- Jesus described His return in this way, saying, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me" (Revelation 3:20). Which is indeed "literal"--but not his old physical body being zapped into the heart or even the home of those who answer His knock at the door. Which should be considered just crazy...and a clear sign that most Christians have not reconciled all that is written, let alone simply what Jesus said.

The issue here however, is that Christendom has not acknowledged that before ascending into heaven Jesus gave His body to the church, as the "firstfruits" of the spirit of God. Which is to say, that one either acknowledges and believes what He said, or denies that He is actually firstfruits. These are the things foretold as the believing of a "lie" causing "strong delusion"--which is the current state of the church.
Hi scott,
Correct me if misunderstanding you. Are you saying, Jesus's return is described in Rev 3:20. Within us?
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,953
5,700
113
www.CheeseburgersWithGod.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi scott,
Correct me if misunderstanding you. Are you saying, Jesus's return is described in Rev 3:20. Within us?

Yes. Which is greater, the flesh or the spirit?

If one says Jesus has come in the flesh (which occurred 2000 years ago), and says He has come also into them in spirit-- He has come again, by their witness, even if they deny it as His return. Which ought to concern all of Christendom...for having denied Christ in any way. Yet that is not the state of the church, which for the most part, adamantly states that He has not yet come but once.
 

PS95

Active Member
Jun 16, 2024
255
139
43
Eastern Shore
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes. Which is greater, the flesh or the spirit?

If one says Jesus has come in the flesh (which occurred 2000 years ago), and says He has come also into them in spirit-- He has come again, by their witness, even if they deny it as His return. Which ought to concern all of Christendom...for having denied Christ in any way. Yet that is not the state of the church, which for the most part, adamantly states that He has not yet come but once.
Paul taught about Christ in us. Yet, still expected His return.
 

th1b.taylor

Active Member
Dec 4, 2010
286
33
28
79
SE Texas
Well, as you can see, the implications of physical bodies are far more complex.
If God is literally a father, and a male, he must have male reproductive organs, or male chromosomes, or male hormones.. otherwise, saying He is male would be meaningless.

According to the Bible, God is spirit. He does not dwell in physical temples. I don't think he needs any place to live.
All heavens and earth "cannot contain Him".
I don't believe that God needs any physical body to move, to think or act. Having a body that occupies a place would also mean he can't be in two places at a time.

Now, if we say that "spiritual bodies" can do anything that departs from the Laws of Physics, what is the point of stating they are physical?
AAAAAACCCCCK! The Angles are male but there is no sexual activity in the Spiritual Realm. And as former humans we will not intriduce such activity.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,953
5,700
113
www.CheeseburgersWithGod.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul taught about Christ in us. Yet, still expected His return.

Yes, as he lived on the cusp of transition between the times of Israel and of the gentiles which would continue until fulfilled. But clarified, saying "but each one in his own order." Which is defined in the original language as "each one" person.

Are we not capable of understanding that "each one" being born and living and dying "in his own order" or time, means that the return of Christ as He stated would come in the same order? The answer is NO, none has even considered it as it was stated and is now written, but have believed a "lie."
 

PS95

Active Member
Jun 16, 2024
255
139
43
Eastern Shore
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, as he lived on the cusp of transition between the times of Israel and of the gentiles which would continue until fulfilled. But clarified, saying "but each one in his own order." Which is defined in the original language as "each one" person.

Are we not capable of understanding that "each one" being born and living and dying "in his own order" or time, means that the return of Christ as He stated would come in the same order? The answer is NO, none has even considered it as it was stated and is now written, but have believed a "lie."
Let's look at it together.. 1 Cor:15:19-28

19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

So we are clear.. you see v 19-23 as accomplished once we receive Christ. ?
-- and now we are awaiting the end? v 24