The “Return” of Christ: What Does it Mean?

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thanks.

Where do you think Mohammad is right now? What do you think he is doing?

In the presence of God, helping Muslims from that spiritual world.
As I said, he might as well be performing other missions in other worlds. I don't know.

In a NDE I read recently, a woman (who was agnostic before the NDE) talks to Jesus and also talks to Mohammed. Mohammed asks her to tell Muslim people, upon her return, that He keeps caring about them.

I think that upon our physical death, we will have the opportunity to meet all Messengers of God, understand their mission and Message, and understand each of our brothers better.

 

[Matthias]

Then the term "spiritual body" would not be necessary.

Paul’s point is that it is necessary, and Jesus himself is the living example of it.

We would just think in terms of in immortal or indestructible physical body.

Connected by Paul with the spiritual body.

In the Jewish, Greek, Muslim and Zoroastrian traditions (among others) spirits are by definition not physical.
I would say that if we talk about "spiritual bodies" is because we are giving such "bodies" an "spiritual" nature or essence.

Paul is a Jew. What other religions think or don’t think about it holds no sway with me. Paul is an Apostle. What Paul says about it is what Jesus says about it, and what Jesus models in his resurrected state.

If we don't do it, we come into conflict with truths revealed through science.
For example: if the spiritual body of Jesus breathed oxygen... how he could ascend through the atmosphere in the presence of this disciples during his ascension to heaven?
If Jesus had a literal human face, why the disciples walking to Emaus (and the woman at the tomb) didn't recognize him?
If Jesus had a solid body, how he could get into a room with closed doors?

The spiritual body has properties which the natural body doesn’t.

From the Baha'i perspective, the resurrection of Christ means that He lives and was not defeated.
Seeing and touching the resurrected Christs means becoming fully persuaded of this, so that you find the Cause of Christ something worthy to live and to die for. It means that your personal victory is also guaranteed.
That's why Paul says that we have already been resurrected with Christ, and ascended with Him to celestial places.

Jesus of Nazareth himself was and is now a human person. This the Baha’i religion has to deny.

 

[Matthias]

In the presence of God, helping Muslims from that spiritual world.
As I said, he might as well be performing other missions in other worlds. I don't know.

In a NDE I read recently, a woman (who was agnostic before the NDE) talks to Jesus and also talks to Mohammed. Mohammed asks her to tell Muslim people, upon her return, that He keeps caring about them.

I think that upon our physical death, we will have the opportunity to meet all Messengers of God, understand their mission and Message, and understand each of our brothers better.

Thank you. Where do you think Buddha is right now? What do you think he is doing?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is at the end of the millennium. In the biblical story, human persons won’t ever cease to exist. They will be changed, from mortal to immortal. Their bodies will no longer be natural; they will be spiritual.

There are at least two different ways to see this, Matthias.

• One belongs to the future. You believe that upon Jesus' return, you will get a different kind of body.
• Another belongs to the present. Since you have accepted Jesus, you are already resurrected with him, and you are in paradise ("celestial places") with him. You have received an incorruptible heritage. Your body is already spiritual, in the sense that it is not ruled by the flesh, but by the spirit.

In my answer, I have probably missed the focus of the topic you're discussing.

Eternal life is something we start living here, today, on earth, while on these corruptible bodies.
Eternal life also refers to the perpetuation of such a life beyond our physical, corruptible bodies.

I'm interested in eternal life with God.
Whether this implies having legs and feet of some kind or not, doesn't worry me.
I find easier to believe in a life that doesn't need such anatomical structures (and therefore, not the metabolic functions that underpin that structures).

 

[Matthias]

There are at least two different ways to see this, Matthias.

• One belongs to the future. You believe that upon Jesus' return, you will get a different kind of body.
• Another belongs to the present. Since you have accepted Jesus, you are already resurrected with him, and you are in paradise ("celestial places") with him. You have received an incorruptible heritage. Your body is already spiritual, in the sense that it is not ruled by the flesh, but by the spirit.

The first is literal. The second is figurative.

In my answer, I have probably missed the focus of the topic you're discussing.

Eternal life is something we start living here, today, on earth, while on these corruptible bodies.
Eternal life also refers to the perpetuation of such a life beyond our physical, corruptible bodies.

I'm interested in eternal life with God.
Whether this implies having legs and feet of some kind or not, doesn't worry me.
I find easier to believe in a life that doesn't need such anatomical structures (and therefore, not the metabolic functions that underpin that structures).

Eternal life is the life of the age to come; which will come when Jesus himself returns. It is immortality and the future for the disciples of Jesus living in the present evil age.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The spiritual body has properties which the natural body doesn’t.

If I am understanding you correctly, you believe that a "spiritual body" at resurrection is a physical body, very similar to our current body in shape and functions, but with different properties. Is that a fair statement?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thank you. Where do you think Buddha is right now? What do you think he is doing?

In the presence of God, perhaps guiding Buddhists, I don't know.
May I ask where do you think Jesus is right now and what do you think he is doing?

I am curious because, if you think that Jesus has a phsyical body with enhanced or different properties, then, in what kind of physical realm He is? For example, his feet should be walking on physical soil... a planet perhaps? Do you visualize him breathing and eating? If that's the case, he would be in an earth-like planet, not in an ocean planet.
I'm just exploring what are the implications for you of Jesus having a physical body on where he is and what he does.

If you tell me that Jesus could be in the bottom of the ocean, or floating in the atmosphere of a planet, because his body has new or enhanced properties and can stand lack of oxygen and huge changes in pressure... then what is the practical difference between saying that He has a spiritual body, and saying He is an spirit who needs no body?
There would be a theoretical difference, for sure, but I don't see how such difference would translate into any practical knowledge.

 

[Matthias]

If I am understanding you correctly, you believe that a "spiritual body" at resurrection is a physical body, very similar to our current body in shape and functions, but with different properties. Is that a fair statement?

Yes. This is proven by the New Testament witness of the bodily resurrected human person, Jesus of Nazareth himself. I’ve mentioned several times already how the disciples were able to touch him, for example.

The spiritual body is physical. The door that you’ve mentioned is physical. You find it incredulous that the physical spiritual body can pass through the natural physical door.

The properties of the natural physical body and the spiritual physical body are obviously not the same.

 

[Matthias]

In the presence of God, perhaps guiding Buddhists, I don't know.

Thank you. Where do you think Paul is right now? What do you think he is doing?

May I ask where do you think Jesus is right now and what do you think he is doing?

Yes. Jesus right now is sitting at the right hand of God in heaven, mediating between human persons and God.

At the same time, he is with his disciples in spirit.

I am curious because, if you think that Jesus has a phsyical body with enhanced or different properties, then, in what kind of physical realm He is? For example, his feet should be walking on physical soil... a planet perhaps?
I'm just exploring what are the implications for you of Jesus having a physical body on where he is and what he does

Jesus isn’t physically on the earth at the present. His feet will be when he himself returns, which he will do sometime in the future. I don’t set dates but I think his return is not that distant now from happening; perhaps in my lifetime.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thank you. Where do you think Paul is right now? What do you think he is doing?


Jesus isn’t physically on the earth at the present. His feet will be when he himself returns.

If his feet are not on earth, they should be on some solid surface of some planet.
Our Mormon friends go all the way to say that he may be with his Father in a planet orbiting a star called Kólob.

Does Jesus need to eat and breath air, or can Jesus live without such things?
I am not asking this for you to provide a definitive answer, my friend. Please bear with me.
I'm asking this for you to reflect:

• If Jesus DOES need these things, then he should be on an earth-like planet... perhaps with other resurrected beings... those who resurrected at the time of his resurrection. And certainly, he is not "sitting" on a throne all the time, as this would be very unhealthy in a being that needs to breath and eat.
• If Jesus does NOT need these things... if he could dive into the deep ocean or float on an atmosphere or even in the interstellar space, then there is no practical difference between saying "Jesus has a human body with radically different characteristics" than saying "Jesus has not a human body".

 

[Matthias]

If his feet are not on earth, they should be on some solid surface of some planet.

He is in heaven, not on some planet.

Our Mormon friends go all the way to say that he may be with his Father in a planet orbiting a star called Kólob.

Does Jesus need to eat and breath air, or can Jesus live without such things?
I am not asking this for you to provide a definitive answer, my friend. Please bear with me.
I'm asking this for you to reflect:

• If Jesus DOES need these things, then he should be on an earth-like planet... perhaps with other resurrected beings... those who resurrected at the time of his resurrection. And certainly, he is not "sitting" on a throne all the time, as this would be very unhealthy in a being that needs to breath and eat.
• If Jesus does NOT need these things... if he could dive into the deep ocean or float on an atmosphere or even in the interstellar space, then there is no practical difference between saying "Jesus has a human body with radically different characteristics" than saying "Jesus has not a human body".

The very same Jesus who was bodily resurrected from the realm of the dead and appeared to the disciples is now, himself, in heaven. The very same Jesus, himself, will return to this planet, earth. That is New Testament Christianity. That is an essential part of the primitive Christian hope.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

He is in heaven, not on some planet.

So, heaven does not imply physical structures made of matter over a space-time fabric?
I mean, a place in the universe, an object or set of objects in the universe?

If it does not imply a physical "place", why would Jesus have right now a physical body?
Do you think that YHWH also has a physical body with different properties, so that Jesus can be sitting next to Him/Her?

 

[Matthias]

So, heaven does not imply physical structures made of matter over a space-time fabric?
I mean, a place in the universe, an object or set of objects in the universe?

I’ve never been there. It isn’t the destination for the disciples of Jesus in primitive Christianity.

If it does not imply a physical "place", why would Jesus have right now a physical body?

It does imply a physical place.

Do you think that YHWH also has a physical body with different properties…

I think Yahweh has a spiritual body, just as Jesus himself does now - which Jesus received when he was bodily resurrected from the place of the dead.

, so that Jesus can be sitting next to Him/Her?

Her? Do Baha’i think Yahweh is a her? I don’t.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, Jesus will literally and physically return to the Earth.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I think Yahweh has a spiritual body, just as Jesus himself does now - which Jesus received when he was bodily resurrected from the place of the dead.
Her? Do Baha’i think Yahweh is a her? I don’t.

No, Baha'i don't think that Yahweh is a man nor a woman. We believe sex is an attribute to some of the creatures of God, who is well beyond those attributes and needs.

But I find interesting that you think Yahweh has a body like the one Jesus had upon his resurrection.
Mormons also believe that. I also believed that when I was a Mormon.
May I ask if you think Yahweh is a male being?

 

[Matthias]

@Pancho Frijoles have you read the early Church Fathers? If you have then you know that bodily resurrection continued to be the Christian hope, belief and message; it wasn’t the Church countermanding Paul.

 

[Matthias]

No, Baha'i don't think that Yahweh is a man nor a woman. We believe sex is an attribute to some of the creatures of God, who is well beyond those attributes and needs.

But I find interesting that you think Yahweh has a body like the one Jesus had upon his resurrection.
Mormons also believe that.

I worked with a Mormon and got to know him quite well. We spent a lot of time together traveling. We don’t believe in the same God, nor in the same Jesus. There were some things we were able to agree on but we could only go so far. They believe many, many things that I don’t believe. He remains a Mormon and I remain a Jewish monotheist.

The last time I spoke with him he was imploring me to read the Book of Mormon (he had gifted me a copy, along with a copy of The Pearl of Great Price; I still have them in my personal library) and to look for “a knock on the back of the neck”.

May I ask if you think Yahweh is a male being?

I know Jesus is a male being. Yahweh isn’t said in scripture to be a male being.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@Pancho Frijoles have you read the early Church Fathers? If you have then you know that bodily resurrection continued to be the Christian hope, belief and message; it wasn’t the Church countermanding Paul.

Yes, I know it has been central to Christian belief from the very early stages, and I deeply respect that belief.
But to me, the importance of resurrection does not lie on the literal meanings, but the spiritual meanings.

I'm talking on my behalf:
Before I die, I will thank God again for the magnificent gift of my physical organs... and I will put them on His hands again, so that my body can return to the dust and nurture plants, animals and humans, and contribute to the ongoing creation of God.

The eternal life I enjoy and want to enjoy forever does not depend necessarily on oxygen and carbon.
Whatever physical form (if any) my being takes, I will thank God for that and I will bless His Name.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, I know it has been central to Christian belief from the very early stages, and I deeply respect that belief.
But to me, the importance of resurrection does not lie on the literal meanings, but the spiritual meanings.

To primitive Christians it isn’t an either / or choice; bodily resurrection is both.

I'm talking on my behalf:
Before I die, I will thank God again for the magnificent gift of my physical organs... and I will put them on His hands again, so that my body can return to the dust and nurture plants, animals and humans, and contribute to the ongoing creation of God.

The eternal life I enjoy and want to enjoy forever does not depend necessarily on oxygen and carbon.
Whatever physical form (if any) my being takes, I will thank God for that and I will bless His Name.

I was speaking this morning with a colleague of mine who lives in Atlanta. We were discussing, among other things, the Baha’i religion. He said that Baha’i sounds similar to him to the Unitarian Universalists.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus of Nazareth. Was dead and in the grave. There is no activity in the grave. Now alive; bodily resurrected from the realm of the dead. Active in heaven. Will himself return to the earth in the future.

Baha’u’llah. Dead. In the grave, awaiting bodily resurrection and judegement. There is no activity in the grave.

Mohammad. Dead. In the grave, awaiting bodily resurrection and judgement. There is no activity in the grave.

Buddha. Dead. In the grave, awaiting bodily resurrection and judgement. There is no activity in the grave.

Paul. Dead. In the grave, awaiting bodily resurrection, which will happen when Jesus himself returns. There is no activity in the grave.