Matthew 18 - Is Jesus Lying Or Are You Lying?

[Windmill Charge]

So you have nothing to say about the topic right?

Nothing about salvation by works, something about God's amazing undeserved grace to us.

 

[ScottA]

You're admitting the unforgiving servant had eternal life--bc he was forgiven--and it was rescinded.
Again, Jesus said this is what God will do to us if we are unforgiving... so, do we have eternal life or not?

You are not listening, but are blinded by your own pet peeve theology.

Indeed, all are forgiven, and all are raised up eternally--but "Some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

Forgiveness of sins, is not salvation.

 

[GracePeace]

Nothing about salvation by works, something about God's amazing undeserved grace to us.

Oh, ok, I'll mark you down as another "Jesus is a liar."

 

[GracePeace]

You are not listening, but are blinded by your own pet peeve theology.

Indeed, all are forgiven, and all are raised up eternally--but "Some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

Forgiveness of sins, is not salvation.

This sounds like Eastern Orthodoxy.

Anyway, if he had remained forgiven, he wouldn't have been handed over to thetormentors, so... not sure what you do with that.

 

[ScottA]

Anyway, if he had remained forgiven, he wouldn't have been handed over to thetormentors, so... not sure what you do with that.

If the issue and topic of Matthew 18:23-35 is properly identified as referring to repentance (and not specifically about salvation), what is to be done, is to repent...or as He indicated, he would be turned over to the torturers.

Which incidentally, is God's follow-up measure for continued or severe sin. Just as Paul did with one, delivering him "to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Corinthians 5:5).

 

[GracePeace]

If the issue and topic of Matthew 18:23-35 is properly identified as referring to repentance (and not specifically about salvation), what is to be done, is to repent...or as He indicated, he would be turned over to the torturers.

That's not relevant : the dynamic of God forgiving fully, but, then, being able to rescind that forgiveness, is what is important.
Do you hold, as the Scripture teaches, that God is able to rescind His forgiveness He had extended to you as a believer today so that you would have to go to torment to pay for your sins?

Which incidentally, is God's follow-up measure for continued or severe sin. Just as Paul did with one, delivering him "to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Corinthians 5:5).

No, actually, the fact that someone is handed over to satan for the destruction of his flesh is not so proof the forgiveness has been rescinded any more than Christ's sending a messenger to buffet Paul's body was a proof God had rescinded forgiveness to him--in both cases, satan is used as a sheep dog to move people to Christ (as the Law was intended to move people to Christ), but there is no rescinding of forgiveness.

Rescinding of forgiveness is something else entirely.

 

[ScottA]

That's not relevant : the dynamic of God forgiving fully, but, then, being able to rescind that forgiveness, is what is important.
Do you hold, as the Scripture teaches, that God is able to rescind His forgiveness He had extended to you as a believer today so that you would have to go to torment to pay for your sins?

One thing at a time...since you are so steeped into your own interpretation:

Forgiveness being rescinded simply means it is as if they never were forgiven, thus salvation will not yet be granted. But that is not salvation being rescinded, only forgiveness.

Which also just means that torment will simply continue in this world. This world is the setting of the interaction, and thus, the context.

Incidentally, since I mentioned interpretation...I am not interpreting. This is not the debate you may think it is.

 

[ScottA]

No, actually, the fact that someone is handed over to satan for the destruction of his flesh is not so proof the forgiveness has been rescinded any more than Christ's sending a messenger to buffet Paul's body was a proof God had rescinded forgiveness to him--in both cases, satan is used as a sheep dog to move people to Christ (as the Law was intended to move people to Christ), but there is no rescinding of forgiveness.

Rescinding of forgiveness is something else entirely.

You are missing the point.

The context of the story and interaction Jesus gave, is within this world, not that of heavenly salvation.

The context of salvation is heavenly, not of this world. Which is to say, you are not "rightly dividing the world of truth" according to proper context.

 

[GracePeace]

Forgiveness being rescinded simply means it is as if they never were forgiven, thus salvation will not yet be granted. But that is not salvation being rescinded, only forgiveness.

If you're not forgiven your sins, you are not saved from wrath.
The guy was forgiven, thus saved, and, afterward, unforgiven, thus, lost that salvation.

Which also just means that torment will simply continue in this world. This world is setting of the interaction, and thus, the context.

If you want to be unforgiven of your sins, and go to torment to pay for your sins, and call that "no losing salvation", then have at it.

However, I wonder how many people will want to join you.

Incidentally, since I mentioned interpretation...I am not interpreting. This is not the debate you may think it is.

You don't know your left from your right. You are lost.

 

[GracePeace]

You are missing the point.

The context of the story and interaction Jesus gave, is within this world, not that of heavenly salvation.

All of Jesus's parables teach spiritual truths via earthly truths.
I am pointing to the spiritual implications of the earthly elements of the parable, as Jesus intended me to do.

The context of salvation is heavenly, not of this world. Which is to say, you are not "rightly dividing the world of truth" according to proper context.

You don't know "the word of truth".

 

[ScottA]

If you're not forgiven your sins, you are not saved from wrath.

Yes, meaning you have the cart in front of the horse.

Forgiveness is first and includes everyone ever born, and salvation comes after and only includes those who are first forgiven and only given to those to whom it is granted.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes, meaning you have the cart in front of the horse.

Forgiveness is first and includes everyone ever born, and salvation comes after and only includes those who are first forgiven and to whom it is granted.

1. Nah,

Ephesians 2
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

When people are not forgiven, they are dead, under God's wrath.
When people are forgiven, they are alive again.
The redemption is "in Christ".
You, therefore, would have "forgiven" people who are "not yet saved" who are "made alive" and "raised up with Christ".

2. The redemption is "in Christ", so, if you do not believe, you are still under "severity", as the unbelieving Jews (Ro 11:17+). Unbelievers are not forgiven.

 

[ScottA]

You don't know your left from your right. You are lost.

You shall see and be sorry.

 

[GracePeace]

You shall see and be sorry.

LOL "If you don't agree with ME you SHALL (KING JAMESIAN LANGUAGE) see and be sorry!"

You are a fool.

 

[ScottA]

1. Nah,

Ephesians 2
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

When people are not forgiven, they are dead, under God's wrath.
When people are forgiven, they are alive again.
The redemption is "in Christ".
You, therefore, would have "forgiven" people who are "not yet saved" who are "made alive" and "raised up with Christ".

2. The redemption is "in Christ", so, if you do not believe, you are still under "severity", as the unbelieving Jews (Ro 11:17+). Unbelievers are not forgiven.

Paul understood, but you have only quoted against yourself. No one sits in heavenly places who is still capable of sin. You are mixing darkness with light, and thus preaching a false gospel of half truths.

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[GracePeace]

Paul understood, but you have only quoted against yourself. No one sits in heavenly places who is still capable of sin. You are mixing darkness with light, and thus preaching a false gospel of half truths.

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Your false interpretation has someone forgiven of all their sins without being saved.
"He saved us". From what? "Wrath".
Men who do not believe are ALREADY under God's "wrath" (Jn 3).
What is the "wrath"? They're DEAD in sins and trespasses.
When we're forgiven, we're not under wrath, we're "made alive".
Thus, we are "saved" from "wrath", spiritual "death", when we are "forgiven" and "alive".

The unforgiving servant had the forgiveness rescinded, returning to death.

 

[ScottA]

Your false interpretation has someone forgiven of all their sins without being saved.
"He saved us". From what? "Wrath".
Men who do not believe are ALREADY under God's "wrath" (Jn 3).
What is the "wrath"? They're DEAD in sins and trespasses.
When we're forgiven, we're not under wrath, we're "made alive".
Thus, we are "saved" from "wrath", spiritual "death", when we are "forgiven" and "alive".

The unforgiving servant had the forgiveness rescinded, returning to death.

I told you-- You are not listening. I am not interpreting.

Now you accuse me of interpretation and back it up with a bunch of speculations on what you think and how you yourself arrived at what you believe. See how you are? (Rhetorical)

 

[GracePeace]

I told you-- You are not listening. I am not interpreting.

Now you accuse me of interpretation and back it up with a bunch of speculations on what you think and how you yourself arrived at what you believe. See how you are? (Rhetorical)

So, let's hear what you say:

The unforgiving servant was forgiven but he was not saved.
Therefore, he did not lose salvation when the forgiveness was rescinded.

The "glitch" in your little speculation, here, is that it pertains to Christ's disciples.
Jesus says, "So My Father will do to you if you do not forgive your brothers."
Christ said "Go teach the nations everything I taught you."
Therefore, you would have us believe that none of us are saved, we're just forgiven.
Because this parable pertains to us.
LOL

See how you mangle the Scripture when you hold to "faith alone" and OSAS nonsense?
Have some RESPECT for Scripture. Humble yourself. Admit your error.

 

[ScottA]

So, let's hear what you say:

The unforgiving servant was forgiven but he was not saved.
Therefore, he did not lose salvation when the forgiveness was rescinded.

The "glitch" in your little speculation, here, is that it pertains to Christ's disciples.
Jesus says, "So My Father will do to you if you do not forgive your brothers."
Christ said "Go teach the nations everything I taught you."
Therefore, you would have us believe that none of us are saved, we're just forgiven.
Because this parable pertains to us.
LOL

See how you mangle the Scripture when you hold to "faith alone" and OSAS nonsense?
Have some RESPECT for Scripture. Humble yourself. Admit your error.

I have not speculated, nor errored.

Forgiveness of sins is unto both the living and the dead, but all are not living.

 

[GracePeace]

I have not speculated, nor errored.

Forgiveness of sins is unto both the living and the dead, but all are not living.

Nope, no one is forgiven apart from faith.