Matthew 18 - Is Jesus Lying Or Are You Lying?

[Wick Stick]

Is Jesus Lying Or Are You Lying?
-GracePeace​

The juxtaposition of the blatantly inflammatory title with the username is really something.

 

[lforrest]

So, you are defining the false prophets of Matthew 7 as people whom the Lord had forgiven--ie, as truly believing, saved, children of God?

Did Jesus say they are false prophets? What of those who successfully cast out devils in Jesus name? The demons wouldn't recognize the authority of someone not in the Spirit of Christ. They were given this to spread the kingdom, but they themselves will not enter.

 

[GracePeace]

Did Jesus say they are false prophets? What of those who successfully cast out devils in Jesus name? The demons wouldn't recognize the authority of someone not in the Spirit of Christ. They were given this to spread the kingdom, but they themselves will not enter.

Yeah, that's the topic.

Matthew 7
15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

They're workers of lawlessness, because what God wants is not merely men doing miracles, but men who are holy, and these people did these miracles, but they never led anyone to God because they themselves were not holy.

 

[GracePeace]

Did Jesus say they are false prophets? What of those who successfully cast out devils in Jesus name? The demons wouldn't recognize the authority of someone not in the Spirit of Christ. They were given this to spread the kingdom, but they themselves will not enter.

Anyway, we're getting off on a tangent.
Do you believe what Jesus said about the subject--that God can forgive someone's sins, so they are saved, but, afterward, rescind that forgiveness, so that they are no longer saved?

 

[lforrest]

They're workers of lawlessness, because what God wants is not merely men doing miracles, but men who are holy, and these people did these miracles, but they never led anyone to God because they themselves were not holy.

Not sure what leading people to God has to do with lawlessness. Lawlessness is when people disobey the commands of their governing authority. And these people are trying to claim Jesus is their governing authority, pleading to their "Lord." But Jesus is calling them out on their disobedience, and that they didn't live like he is their Lord.

 

[GracePeace]

Not sure what leading people to God has to do with lawlessness. Lawlessness is when people disobey the commands of their governing authority. And these people are trying to claim Jesus is their governing authority, pleading to their "Lord." But Jesus is calling them out on their disobedience, and that they didn't live like he is their Lord.

People who fellowship with God act to bring others into fellowship with God (1 John 1).
That is what it means to live for God's glory--you reveal God's righteousness (Ro 1:17, 3:27, 14:5), and the result is that others come into fellowship with Him, or, if they are Christian, are edified.

I don't want to get off on a tangent, though: do you accept that a person can be granted forgiveness, be saved, and, then, have that forgiveness rescinded, become unsaved?

 

[lforrest]

I don't want to get off on a tangent, though: do you accept that a person can be granted forgiveness, be saved, and, then, have that forgiveness rescinded, become unsaved?

I don't know if forgiveness for past sins can be recended. I do believe that person will be condemned on the day of the Lord, because Jesus is the only hope of Salvation. And at the Judgement they will be found lacking one way or the other.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't know if forgiveness for past sins can be recended. I do believe that person will be condemned on the day of the Lord, because Jesus is the only hope of Salvation. And at the Judgement they will be found lacking one way or the other.

Jesus says the forgiveness, once received, can be rescinded.
I simply believe Jesus.

 

[lforrest]

Jesus says the forgiveness, once received, can be rescinded.
I simply believe Jesus.

Are you perhaps referring to forgiveness as a state of being forgiven of all sins, synonymous to being saved. This understanding would fit with the Matt 18 parable IMO.

But forgiveness can also refer to specific sins. And this may be an irrelevant distinction, as even one sin is worthy of death.

 

[GracePeace]

Are you perhaps referring to forgiveness as a state of being forgiven of all sins, synonymous to being saved. This understanding would fit with the Matt 18 parable IMO.

But forgiveness can also refer to specific sins. And this may be an irrelevant distinction, as even one sin is worthy of death.

Mt 18 says he'd been forgiven, but refused to do the same, so, in response to his injustice, the King rescinded the forgiveness.

Jesus says God will do the same to us--if the ones He forgave don't forgive, He will rescind His forgiveness. Loss of salvation.

Other than the fact that you may be wedded to a view that is threatened by this plain teaching, there is no accounting for your endless need for "clarification" of what is already transparent.

Just read it and believe. What's the problem?

 

[ScottA]

Jesus says that someone who is forgiven their sins through Christ's sacrifice can sin in such a way as to have that forgiveness rescinded, so that such a person ends up being thrown in hell.

For those who argue salvation can't be lost, or that being born of God can't be undone, tell me: are you the liar, or is Jesus the liar?

Matthew 18
23Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.f 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.

26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

28But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.g He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me!’

29So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’

30But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.

31When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.

32Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

35That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

With your question, it is you who make those who answer out to be liars.

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea (Mark 9:42).​

 

[lforrest]

What's the problem?

Unwillingness to give blanket agreement when the root all potential disagreements have not been exposed.

 

[GracePeace]

With your question, it is you who make those who answer out to be liars.

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea (Mark 9:42).​

Please clarify.

 

[GracePeace]

Unwillingness to give blanket agreement when the root all potential disagreements have not been exposed.

Whatever you have to tell yourself.

I simply believe like a child.

 

[ScottA]

Please clarify.

Matthew 18 is not about the possibility of salvation being revoked. It is about repentance...which comes before salvation.

Thus, to purpose a question that insists that salvation can be revoked before it is even attained, you mislead many who are yet babes not fully versed even in their own status of being alive in the spirit but remaining in the world. In the midst of their walking it out, you speak to them as if many who are saved should doubt, when they should not, but be encouraged to endure unto the end.

What spirit preaches doubt regarding salvation, when the encouraged word from Christ, is "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life" (John 6:47)?

 

[ScottA]

Where is it written your salvation is eternal?

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life" (John 6:47).​

 

[ScottA]

You denied the believer who sinned by not forgiving would end up having their sins "unforgiven" so they would end up having to pay for their sins--thus, you called Jesus "liar".

All who sin pay for their sin. The wages of sin is death. All die. Which says nothing of eternal life.

There are two issues and you have confused them by putting them together. By one act Christ has paid for all sin, but all do not receive eternally life. Sin is one issue, salvation is another. One must believe, which cannot be done without repentance. One who does not repent, does not believe, for if he did, he would repent.

 

[GracePeace]

Matthew 18 is not about the possibility of salvation being revoked. It is about repentance...which comes before salvation.

Nope,
1. The guy had already received forgiveness, and
2. Jesus said it pertains to us, His disciples.

How many people who don't yet believe are already forgiven?

Thus, to purpose a question that insists that salvation can be revoked before it is even attained, you mislead many who are yet babes not fully versed even in their own status of being alive in the spirit but remaining in the world. In the midst of their walking it out, you speak to them as if many who are saved should doubt, when they should not, but be encouraged to endure unto the end.

Your misunderstanding has been corrected.

What spirit preaches doubt regarding salvation, when the encouraged word from Christ, is "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life" (John 6:47)?

Answer Matthew 18.

 

[GracePeace]

All who sin pay for their sin. The wages of sin is death. All die. Which says nothing of eternal life.

You're admitting the unforgiving servant had eternal life--bc he was forgiven--and it was rescinded.
Again, Jesus said this is what God will do to us if we are unforgiving... so, do we have eternal life or not?

 

[GracePeace]

Are you perhaps referring to forgiveness as a state of being forgiven of all sins, synonymous to being saved. This understanding would fit with the Matt 18 parable IMO.

But forgiveness can also refer to specific sins. And this may be an irrelevant distinction, as even one sin is worthy of death.

The parable says he was forgiven all he owed.

Jesus, then, says that this refers to how God will treat (those who've been forgiven through Christ's blood) the disciples if they do not forgive.

Jesus tells the Apostles to go into all the world and teach the nations the things He taught them--He was speaking to the disciples in all the world, who've been forgiven all their debt, who have eternal life.

God can rescind His forgiveness, and they no longer have eternal life. Why? Eternal life is only "in His Son" (1 Jn 5:11)--not all remain in the Son. Some decide not to live the Word (Christ, the Son, is the Word).