Matthew 18 - Is Jesus Lying Or Are You Lying?

[GracePeace]

Where is it written your salvation is eternal?

I'm puzzled by your question.
I don't understand where it's coming from.
I didn't say salvation was eternal.
I actually reject that notion.

 

[mailmandan]

In regard to the parable of the unforgiving servant, the picture illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the cross. Our debt has been paid in full by Jesus. In Matthew 18:28, where the same servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant such a small debt of a hundred denarii is presented as a repulsive hypothetical situation. As unbelievable as this action would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine born-again Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. Notice that this "unforgiving servant" is called a "wicked" servant because no genuine born-again Christian would have such an unforgiving heart.

A Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that we have been forgiven by God. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts, which reveals the condition of our hearts by the way we treat others. Hearts that are humble and have received God’s grace forgive others from a heart that is saved, but proud and vengeful hearts which do not forgive in such small matters reveal a heart that is unsaved and does not receive God's forgiveness.

Those who are unforgiving from the heart in such small matters show they are unfit to receive God’s forgiveness. Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not fully embraced God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. The fact that this person is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean they were saved. The children of Israel were referred to as "the Lord’s servants," but they were not all saved.

In Leviticus 25:55, we read - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

In Isaiah 43:10, we read - You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servant, whom I have chosen.

 

[GracePeace]

In regard to the parable of the unforgiving servant, the picture illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the cross. Our debt has been paid in full by Jesus. In Matthew 18:28, where the same servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant such a small debt of a hundred denarii is presented as a repulsive hypothetical situation. As unbelievable as this action would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine born-again Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. Notice that this "unforgiving servant" is called a "wicked" servant because no genuine born-again Christian would have such an unforgiving heart.

A Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that we have been forgiven by God. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts, which reveals the condition of our hearts by the way we treat others. Hearts that are humble and have received God’s grace forgive others from a heart that is saved, but proud and vengeful hearts which do not forgive in such small matters reveal a heart that is unsaved and does not receive God's forgiveness.

Those who are unforgiving from the heart in such small matters show they are unfit to receive God’s forgiveness. Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not fully embraced God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. The fact that this person is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean they were saved. The children of Israel were referred to as "the Lord’s servants," but they were not all saved.

In Leviticus 25:55, we read - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

In Isaiah 43:10, we read - You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servant, whom I have chosen.

Lol "he wasn't really saved"
What kind of "salvation" does he need if not the forgiveness of all his sins?

 

[GracePeace]

In Matthew 18:28, where the same servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant such a small debt of a hundred denarii is presented as a repulsive hypothetical situation.

Not "hypothetical" : Jesus says it applies directly to those of us who have been forgiven (35"That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."), and it mirrors the Lord's prayer ("forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors")--and this comes on the heels of the directive for ex communicating a sinning brother. Same subject matter.

A Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that we have been forgiven by God. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts, which reveals the condition of our hearts by the way we treat others. Hearts that are humble and have received God’s grace forgive others from a heart that is saved, but proud and vengeful hearts which do not forgive in such small matters reveal a heart that is unsaved and does not receive God's forgiveness.

Jesus didn't say "He had an unsaved heart that never received God's forgiveness", He said that after having received forgiveness, the servant didn't go and act after the pattern of behavior shown to him ("love one another as i have loved you"), so it angered the King, and he rescinded his forgiveness.

These may be dynamics that do not exist in your idea of what the Bible says... and, yet, there they are in the Bible! Stubborn facts!

Those who are unforgiving from the heart in such small matters show they are unfit to receive God’s forgiveness. Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not fully embraced God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer.

If he wasn't a genuine believer, how did he get his sins forgiven? Did he "trick" God?

 

[mailmandan]

Not "hypothetical" : Jesus says it applies directly to those of us who have been forgiven (35"That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."), and it mirrors the Lord's prayer ("forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors")--and this comes on the heels of the directive for ex communicating a sinning brother. Same subject matter.

Jesus didn't say "He had an unsaved heart that never received God's forgiveness", He said that after having received forgiveness, the servant didn't go and act after the pattern of behavior shown to him ("love one another as i have loved you"), so it angered the King, and he rescinded his forgiveness.

These may be dynamics that do not exist in your idea of what the Bible says... and, yet, there they are in the Bible! Stubborn facts!

If he wasn't a genuine believer, how did he get his sins forgiven? Did he "trick" God?

Keep in mind this is a parable. You need to go back and thoroughly read post #22 again. Our sin debt is too large to pay back, yet the Lord is going to sell us, along with our wife and kids to pay it back? Now explain to me exactly how tthat fits with us?

Now if we just beg and plead with the Lord enough to forgive our sins, He will automatically forgive our sins, even if He knows we have an unforgiving heart in small matters? Explain to me how that fits as well.

So according to your interpretation, apparently the Lord is not all knowing and forgives us regardless, because He is compassionate and pities us when we beg? You are so anxious to make this passage of scripture refer to a loss of salvation and a born again Christian being cast into hell (which you seem to take pleasure in) that you did not bother to properly interpret this passage in context as a parable.

So as you can see, the kingdom of God is like or compared to a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants, but this doesn’t mean the parable is to be taken line upon line in every detail applying to us in regard to our salvation. Don't be so quick on the draw with your eisegesis.

 

[GracePeace]

Keep in mind this is a parable. You need to go back and thoroughly read post #22 again. Our sin debt is too large to pay back, yet the Lord is going to sell us, along with our wife and kids to pay it back? Now explain to me exactly how tthat fits with us?

Now if we just beg and plead with the Lord enough to forgive our sins, He will automatically forgive our sins, even if He knows we have an unforgiving heart in small matters? Explain to me how that fits as well.

So according to your interpretation, apparently the Lord is not all knowing and forgives us regardless, because He is compassionate and pities us when we beg? You are so anxious to make this passage of scripture refer to a loss of salvation and a born again Christian being cast into hell (which you seem to take pleasure in) that you did not bother to properly interpret this passage in context as a parable.

So as you can see, the kingdom of God is like or compared to a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants, but this doesn’t mean the parable is to be taken line upon line in every detail applying to us in regard to our salvation. Don't be so quick on the draw with your eisegesis.

It's a parable, so it has elements that it wants to highlight.

It's "odd" to me that you don't regard the most conspicuous elements--lessons it is definitively conveying--God rescinds forgiveness to a servant due to his misbehavior.

That said, for my part, I would say the danger in being in such a "place" as to be searching out such truths (threats) to ground one's life on is the danger of coming to view God as "austere" and "ureasonable" (Mt 25)--the error of the wicked lazy servant.

That doesn't mean the conclusions I'm drawing from the parable are incorrect, but there's a way a person can be selective in what they see, and if you get enough selective data points pointing out the severity of God put together, you might conclude He's "austere" and "unreasonable". That's dangerous too. I'm not saying it's not. Just finding a balance between individual truths and the overall picture.

 

[GracePeace]

Keep in mind this is a parable. You need to go back and thoroughly read post #22 again. Our sin debt is too large to pay back, yet the Lord is going to sell us, along with our wife and kids to pay it back? Now explain to me exactly how tthat fits with us?

Now if we just beg and plead with the Lord enough to forgive our sins, He will automatically forgive our sins, even if He knows we have an unforgiving heart in small matters? Explain to me how that fits as well.

So according to your interpretation, apparently the Lord is not all knowing and forgives us regardless, because He is compassionate and pities us when we beg? You are so anxious to make this passage of scripture refer to a loss of salvation and a born again Christian being cast into hell (which you seem to take pleasure in) that you did not bother to properly interpret this passage in context as a parable.

So as you can see, the kingdom of God is like or compared to a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants, but this doesn’t mean the parable is to be taken line upon line in every detail applying to us in regard to our salvation. Don't be so quick on the draw with your eisegesis.

The guy was forgiven, and the forgiveness was rescinded based on his behavior.

It's as plain as day.

You reject that. I accept that you reject that.

 

[Kabone]

I'm puzzled by your question.
I don't understand where it's coming from.
I didn't say salvation was eternal.
I actually reject that notion.

If it’s not written as such then I’m puzzled who would take that position?

 

[GracePeace]

If it’s not written as such then I’m puzzled who would take that position?

I am focused on Matthew 18 in this thread.

 

[Wind mill Charge]

So, "Jesus is a liar".

Mathew 18
35"That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

OK Thanks for sharing your opinion.

So you believe salvation is learnt by what we do. Not by what Jesus has done for us.
Remember Jesus does not forgive everyone.

 

[GracePeace]

So you believe salvation is learnt by what we do. Not by what Jesus has done for us.

So you have nothing to say about the topic right?

 

[lforrest]

So let's say for instance a Christian asks for forgiveness while holding nothing against their neighbor, are they forgiven by God then and there?

Then some time later someone sins against them and they refuse to forgive. Will the former forgiven sins be remembered again?

And suppose after some time to cool off they change their mind, and forgive this person. Are you saying they were saved, unsaved, and saved again?

 

[GracePeace]

So let's say for instance a Christian asks for forgiveness while holding nothing against their neighbor, are they forgiven by God then and there?

Then some time later someone sins against them and they refuse to forgive. Will the former forgiven sins be remembered again?

And suppose after some time to cool off they change their mind, and forgive this person. Are you saying they were saved, unsaved, and saved again?

First, let me ask : do you accept that God can rescind forgiveness?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

another thread for someone to justify how great he is and how sinful everyone else is.

Can we stop responding to the modern day pharisee who can't see his own sin so he can confess them before God>

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Where is it written your salvation is eternal?

lets see

you will never die

you have eternal life

you will never be lost

you are given the spirit as a seal until resurrection day

just a few to be given, there are many more

 

[lforrest]

First, let me ask : do you accept that God can rescind forgiveness?

Anything is possible for God. Even striking someone's name from the book of life. But Christ can't be sacrificed again, so there is no flip flopping of salvation.

Nether would I expect Instantaneous judgement for showing unforgivness.

 

[GracePeace]

Anything is possible for God.

So you accept what Jesus says in Matthew 18--that God can and will rescind forgiveness from some?

Nether would I expect Instantaneous judgement for showing unforgivness.

I'm not saying it's instantaneous. The timing is not the point.

 

[lforrest]

So you accept what Jesus says in Matthew 18--that God can and will rescind forgiveness from some?


I'm not saying it's instantaneous. The timing is not the point.

Perhaps, but I believe it would only happen after death when people go to him begging. "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, and do many miracles in your name?" And he will tell them depart from me you who work iniquity.

 

[GracePeace]

Perhaps, but I believe it would only happen after death when people go to him begging. "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, and do many miracles in your name?" And he will tell them depart from me you who work iniquity.

So, you are defining the false prophets of Matthew 7 as people whom the Lord had forgiven--ie, as truly believing, saved, children of God?

 

[GracePeace]

Perhaps, but I believe it would only happen after death when people go to him begging. "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, and do many miracles in your name?" And he will tell them depart from me you who work iniquity.

I think you think "I never knew you" "proves" they were never "truly believers", but I think you need to remember that Ezekiel 18 says God can "forget" righteousness--which actually goes to the OP, where God rescinds forgiveness, which means that the person's faith, which, in the NT, is "counted as righteousness", is forgotten. He's blotted out, so, being illegible, it's as if his name were never there in the first place.