The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[Timtofly]

Only when you are an unbeliever.
The repentant sinner is filled with the Spirit, because the soul has been saved. Amen

Filled with your own spirit or the Holy Spirit?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You say Jesus needed eternal life, if he is the first fruit to be redeemed, no?

Are you just asking to be reported and banned from here because of your blatant lies? Is that what you want? No, I do not say Jesus needed eternal life! What is wrong with you? Please seek help. For you to say something like this to a Christian shows that you are not well. Not at all. Something is very, very wrong with you. No Christian would think that Jesus needed to be redeemed in order to have eternal life. That's complete nonsense.

If humans don't need eternal life, then who does?

Who said they don't? Certainly not me. Goodness sakes, are you for real?

You're the ridiculous one, with a human understanding, that thinks Jesus needed redemption and was the firstfruit out of sin and death.

Again, I've never said any such thing. Why would I think Jesus would need redemption when we all know He was sinless? You are unbelievable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

By personally attacking them? How thoughtful.

I am glad that you are so impersonal when you constantly lie and bad mouth other posters.

Says the guy who told me in another post that I believe that Jesus needs to be redeemed when I've never come close to saying any such thing. That would be blasphemy for anyone to say that. Stop your nonsense, hypocrite! You are the liar. You are the one who makes it personal. I would never say anything to you like that you believe Jesus needs to be redeemed or any complete nonsense like that. I do not misrepresent what you believe the way you misrepresent what I believe repeatedly.

Then high five each other on your keen post.

Awwww, are you jealous because you have no one who agrees with you?

 

[jeffweeder]

You cannot accept that the hour of the first resurrection did happen for Lazarus as a physical resurrection.

Lazarus resurrection was not the resurrection to a glorified body. He died again because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given.
The Holy Spirit was not given till after Jesus was resurrected to Glory/
Glorified body like the Lords glorified body comes to those who are Born again and Spirit filled.

 

[jeffweeder]

Filled with your own spirit or the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit of course.

 

[Timtofly]

Does God reveal the truth of these things to only one person? Absolutely not.

Does Satan deceive the entire world?

Perhaps the truth is blocked so it seems that only a few actually can know.

Islam is a popular held belief system. Do numbers make something true?

You do realize that even the apostate Roman Catholic church is post trib and amillennial? You claim you have support from a long history of believers. That does not make your eschatology the truth.

 

[Timtofly]

The Holy Spirit of course.

The topic was one's own spirit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All of us watch for Jesus.
The danger in preaching a pretribulation is that a new convert may be unprepared when eventually faced with great tribulation.
We should preach that tribulations will come our way, as Scripture states, even to the point of being killed for the faith like the Apostles and many others.
Cannot imagine them teaching a pretrib when they themselves lost their lives. That doesn't make any sense does it.

Well said, Jeff. I couldn't agree more. Scripture repeatedly talks about believers needing to keep our faith until the end and endure to the end (of our lives or of the age, whichever comes first). But, pre-trib inexplicably says we don't need to keep our faith and endure anymore 7 years before the end because we'll just be taken off of the earth. What a terrible, misleading doctrine.

Like you said, this can lead a new Christian to be unprepared for tribulation. Even though scripture says "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12). All except for those taken off of the earth 7 years before the end of the age? Is that what it says? No, it doesn't. Scripture also says "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). That doesn't apply to those who are supposedly raptured before the great tribulation? No. It says it applies to all of us. If we all "must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God", as Paul and Barnabas said, then why would that no longer applies for 7 years before the return of Christ? That make no sense whatsoever.

 

[Timtofly]

This is what happens when you try to fit your eschatology into biblical history. You can make anything mean anything you want it to mean. That's why I ask for explicit biblical teaching when it comes to doctrine. The Holy Spirit is not "hard of speaking."

So Enoch was not translated that he should not see death and was no longer found on the earth?

You really don't think Christians go to heaven like Enoch. You think they are stuck in the ground dead, like all the OT redeemed, and know nothing as Solomon said in Ecclesiastes. This has nothing to do with eschatology. But the very doctrine of salvation and eternal life.

The pain at death may be hard and drawn out for some, but eternal life happens immediately when the soul leaves the body, and enters God's physical body. I just relate "translated" as the same as "changed". Enoch could not enter heaven in a state of sin and death.

Why would God invent two different actions for the same purpose?

 

[Timtofly]

I cannot discuss prophecy with those who read anything they want into Apocalyptic symbolism. You don't rely on explicit biblical teaching, but concoct your own with little reference to things the Bible itself makes important.

Too bad you just say stuff without actually pointing out where you are not understanding my points. All my points are right there in the verses of many books of the Bible.

Too bad you are stuck in human tradition and theology instead of God Word.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does Satan deceive the entire world?

Perhaps the truth is blocked so it seems that only a few actually can know.

Islam is a popular held belief system. Do numbers make something true?

LOL. I'm talking about more than one having the truth about these things, at least. It is highly improbable that anyone else in the world agrees with some of the things that you believe.

You do realize that even the apostate Roman Catholic church is post trib and amillennial?

So? What is your point? That means nothing to me as I am not a Catholic. They also believe that Jesus Christ died for people's sins and rose again from the dead. So, they obviously get some things right even though they also get other things wrong. There are church denominations who accept homosexuality and teach pretrib and premil. Am I supposed to think that says something about you or your beliefs?

You claim you have support from a long history of believers. That does not make your eschatology the truth.

I didn't say that. I'm simply saying that God does not reveal the truth to just one person.

 

[MA2444]

Wow, look at that. Jerico started a good thread, and it's like the enemy dispatched a platoon of evil ones who seek to shut it down and derail it. See how much they hate us talking about the rapture?! They're talking so much trash that no one can talk rapture anymore!

I remember the days (not too long ago!) when one could get on a forum and have good edifying conversations with other Brothers & Sisters. Boy it sure is hard now to do that! If someone starts a good thread, then it's like an evil band of spirits instruct people to shut that thread down! However you can!

It might be a rapture thread. It might be that it is not ok for people to be gay thread. Almost anything. Anything to bring down the truth. I think their funniest lie is, Drag queens arent gay! That one was just classic.

I think all you evil spirits here to disrupt and distract from the truth have shot yourself in the foot in this thread. Because IIRC, all of the rapture scriptures have been posted and explained. So any babe in Christ seeking the truth about the rapture has it all here and can see for themselves that just because evil spirits say, rapture doctrine is wrong and it has been proven now, doesnt make it a fact. The study material is all here and the truth speaks for itself.

By their fruits you will know them.

 

[The Light]

Goodness sakes. Calm down. Why don't you give him a chance to explain before accusing him of lying?

I missed the part where I called him a liar. When I said, "don't you think that this is dishonest?" That is where he has a chance to explain himself. Note that he did not respond as he knows he changed the text and misrepresented what it says.

He may be talking about a word that kataxioō is derived from or something along those lines. Why don't you wait to find out before losing your mind and accusing him of lying?

That makes sense. It could be like claiming that a scripture means THROW when it really means THROW UP. No harm, no fowl. Just a little honest mistake.
I constantly get called a liar by those who think that they have replaced Israel because I understand that there will be a rapture of the Church before the great tribulation. Then when the someone purposely changes the meaning of the text, it's well and good.

Anyway, it seems like what should be discussed is what exactly was Jesus saying they would be worthy to escape? So, let's look at that.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Now, the context of what Jesus said in verse 36 does not pertain to all of the things that He had said previously to that in the Olivet Discourse, as you might think (not sure if you think that or not). Notice in verse 34 that He talks about not letting "that day" catch them unaware. Then He indicated that what will happen on "that day" will "come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". And then Jesus said to pray to be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass. Again, the context of what we should pray to be found worthy of escaping was the things that would happen on "that day" that would "come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". What day is that? He alluded to it in verse 33. The day when "heaven and earth shall pass away".

So, He was alluding to this same day that Peter wrote about:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Jesus was talking about praying to be worthy to escape the day that Jesus comes and burns up the heavens and the earth earth. The day when "heaven and earth shall pass away". I'd say that qualifies as something "that will come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth", as Jesus talked about. At no other time before this will it be necessary to be taken off of the earth. Notice what Peter says in verse 11 and 12 here. It explains how we can be worthy to escape this. By making sure we continue being the "manner of persons" that Peter talks about in verses 11 and 12. That we continue being Christians, in other words. We should pray for God to help us to "endure to the end" (Matthew 24:13).

The only way to escape all these things that will come to pass is to be ready when He comes in an hour that we think not. For the Church the door of the ark will be closed before the tribulation begins. The fullness of the Gentiles must come in so that God can turn His attention to His Chosen. Jacob had two brides.

 

[The Light]

Pretrib is based upon extra-biblical theories, private opinion, odious amounts of "by implication," much double-speak and convoluted language, forced fabricated types, and man-made terms.

If that's the case, you wouldn't find it necessary to make changes to the meaning of the text.

Where in the Bible does it say that "the Church ... is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth that is gathered from the earth"?

I think you think if you keep repeating a personal opinion enough then it will make it a biblical fact. That is not the way it works. Quite the opposite!

Where in the Bible does it say that "there are two raptures"? Please quote it. You know it is not there. You impose it upon the sacred text.

I don't have time to list them all. Here is one. But you won't understand it.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest and the fig tree has two harvests. However, they served other Gods and would not be the first harvest.

You are selective of what the dead in Christ are singing now in glory. Not only are they singing "the song of Moses the servant of God" but they are also singing "the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints." This is the song of the redeemed..

The dead in Christ that are raised when Jesus comes in an hour that you think not is not the same as the dead that are raised at the 6th seal that come out of the great tribulation.

Your Dispensatanist apartheid theology is in error. You are always trying to divide the people of God, when God has made them one people. The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

And yet part Israel will not have its blindness remove until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

There are many unique metaphors used in the New Testament that you cannot find in the Old Testament. That does not negate the fact that God's people throughout time are one. They are a unitary whole. You cannot divide them in two. You cannot decapitate them. Christ does not believe in ethnic apartheid like Dispensationalism. Let us be clear, we are dealing with the greater and fuller revelation in the New Testament. It puts meat on the bones to the old covenant disclosure. What is vague or absurd in the Old Testament is fully revealed in the New Testament. This is something that many Dispensationalists do not seem to see.

It's all about timing. There are two folds that come into one fold. They don't come in at the same time. The Gentiles first and then blindness is removed from part of Israel.

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The intimate bond between Christ and His people (and His absolute place of authority) is profoundly illustrated by many significant earthly analogies and varying symbolic images in the New Testament for, in some way, to portray the perfect intimacy of that relationship. It is commonly (and aptly) described in the theological world as ‘the mystical union’ between Christ and His elect.

Some of the examples are found in:

(a) The bond between a father and his son.
(b) The unity between the head and the body.
(c) The intimacy between a husband and his wife.
(d) The union between a temple and its foundation.
(e) The connection between a tree and its branches.
(f) The relationship between a shepherd and his sheep.

The distinctive bonds between the aforementioned pictures go in some small way to represent the eternal connection and intimacy between the believer

Great.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you have anything to offer besides lies? I absolutely do NOT deny a physical resurrection. I simply see that as being described in John 5:28-29 rather than John 5:24-25.

Do you understand what it means for someone to be dead in their transgressions and sins? Do you understand that Paul applied that concept to living people and not physically dead people? Please tell me your understanding of what it means to be dead in transgressions and sins and later made alive with Christ while still bodily alive, as Paul talked about in Ephesians 2:1-6.

All you do is make ridiculous comments without actually showing what the scriptures mean. You know, like I do and several others here do. Is it too much to ask for you to do that as well? Probably.

All humans start out in a dead state.

I am not denying the second birth out of that dead state.

I am saying that those in Christ don't remain physically dead, but you demand that after the seciond birth, they are back into a state of death, even though Jesus said, no. That is what these verses declare:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Lazarus was given that eternal life when he came out of his tomb. All the OT were in that dead state, but made alive at the Cross.

You claim they all have to wait for you to receive eternal life in your lifetime, or the lifetime of those alive at the Second Coming.

Since death is no more an option for those in Christ who receive the second birth, why would their physical death place them back into a state of death, as you prefer in your interpretation.

I keep posting over and over the Scripture that states those in Christ are no longer in a state of death, but you call Scripture lunacy, ridiculous, because your interpretation is human based and not from God's Word.

Your verses are for those still in death in sheol, who have yet to experience eternal life.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Do you not think that means all of those still in a state of death? You say verses 24 and 25 are merely spiritual. Certainly all those who come forth have never had the spiritual birth. If they had the spiritual birth they would no longer be in a state of death, period.

Why would those of the Spirit be still spiritually dead? You keep them in death, with your interpretation of verses 28 and 29, where they do not belong. Because your other private interpretation, states no one gets a second chance at the GWT Judgment event. Those in Christ are not the dead coming out of sheol, death, nor the sea. Do you not see that the dead there are spiritually dead? That would be that final resurrection after heaven and earth pass away. Why would the church still be spiritually dead after heaven and earth pass away? But go ahead and call that nonsense and lunacy, because that is your interpretation.

 

[WPM]

If that's the case, you wouldn't find it necessary to make changes to the meaning of the text.

I let the Bible speak for itself. I do not force all these obscure unrelated theories on it in order to show what I believe. The wording of the inspired text is enough.

I don't have time to list them all. Here is one. But you won't understand it.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest and the fig tree has two harvests. However, they served other Gods and would not be the first harvest.

• Hosea 9 does NOT teach that "the Church ... is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth that is gathered from the earth."
• Hosea 9 does NOT teach that "there are two raptures"?
• Hosea 9 does NOT teach a "grain harvest, barley and wheat" followed by a "fall fruit harvest."

You obviously have nothing to support your beliefs apart from your own speculations. You seem to make it up as you go.

The dead in Christ that are raised when Jesus comes in an hour that you think not is not the same as the dead that are raised at the 6th seal that come out of the great tribulation.

How is that? Because you say so? I don't think it.

And yet part Israel will not have its blindness remove until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

It's all about timing. There are two folds that come into one fold. They don't come in at the same time. The Gentiles first and then blindness is removed from part of Israel.

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Great.

You do not seem to understand what Paul the apostle is teaching here. You're so fixated with your doctrine that you miss the message.

Dispensationalists interpret Romans 11:25 as if the engrafting must occur after the in-coming of the Gentiles. However, the original doesn't say that. It declares, “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, [Gr. achris hou] while wherein (or, while) the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

The Greek word achris literally means up to, as far as, until, or while.

The same sense is found in Luke 21:24 (a passage that Dispensationalists present as a proof-text for their beliefs), which says, “Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, [Gr. achris hou] while wherein (or, while) the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Palmer Robertson explains: “The phrase rendered ‘until’ (achris hou) is essentially terminative. More particularly, it indicates the terminus ad quem [ending point] … The phrase brings matters “up to” a certain point or “until” a certain goal is reached. It does not itself determine the state of affairs after the termination. The subsequent circumstances can be learned only from the context” (The Israel of God: Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow).

To get a sense of the meaning of this Greek phrase achris hou, it might be good to see an example of its use in some popular passages in Scripture.

Acts 22:4: “And I persecuted this way unto [Gr. achris hou] the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.”

Hebrews 4:12: “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to [Gr. achris hou] the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

1 Corinthians 11:26: “For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till [Gr. achris hou] he come.”

 

[The Light]

The coming (or parousia) of the Lord is when Jesus comes to rescue all His elect and destroy all the wicked. That is the only two peoples that He recognizes on planet earth. You invent a 3rd group that are too wicked be rescued yet too righteous to be destroyed. Who is this invented people? They don't exist in reality. They are a figment of your imagination.

Yeah. I invented the Jews.
Romans 11

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The Gentiles who believe in Christ do not form a new people of God.

I know.

They become part of an already existing faithful Israel. So, New Testament Gentiles have not replaced ethnic Israel, they have joined spiritual remnant Israel.

Most of Israel is currently blind. Don't be ignorant of this fact.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Jesus said, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Who was God going to unite us to? Was it Christ-rejecting Jews in the Middle east or was it faithful remnant Israel?

Christ was simply informing these Jewish believers that grace was going to be widened outside of their ethnic race. The Gentiles were about to be brought into the same unitary fold of grace as the Jewish believers – on equal terms. The mentioning of two groupings within the body didn't indicate "two folds" any more than references to male and female, rich and poor, free and bond, Jew and Gentile represented multiple folds amongst the people of God. Rather it simply shows the variety of members within the one godly fold.

Other sheep I have not of this fold. That would be two folds that are joined into one.

 

[Timtofly]

That's the question I should be asking you since you misrepresent what I believe so often. I know what you believe and I know that it's complete nonsense. By "nonsense", I'm not saying I can't understand what you believe, I'm saying that it does not line up at all with what scripture teaches. And there is no one else I've ever seen who believes some of the things that you do. But, you are somehow more special than anyone else and God has revealed the truth of those things only to you. Okay then. If you want to be that much of a narcissist, then that's your choice.

You cannot even repeat what I believe, so you don't understand what I believe.

I am not a narcissist. So, no, you have no clue what I believe.

Calling me a narcissist is your only argument, because that is your interpretation, and not what I believe at all. Lying about me while accusing me about lying about you, is just weird.

Since you have yet to even point out these things, what things are you even talking about?

This round about way of avoiding actually discussing these points, is not helpful at all.

 

[WPM]

Yeah. I invented the Jews.

Jews are either saved or lost. Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Those Jews and Gentiles that don’t accept Christ don’t accept the Father. Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are under condemnation and are therefore of their father the devil.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Jews who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham, Gentiles who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham. Jews who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham, Gentiles who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham.

Jesus said in Luke 9:48, “whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”

The overwhelming amount of Jews for 2,000 years have rejected Christ, Christ will therefore reject them. Notwithstanding, there has always been a redeemed remnant that have accepted God's only provision for sin and uncleanness. Those that accepts Christ are accepted of the Father. Those that deny Him are denied by the Father.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”

How can they be of God's if they reject God's only means of reconciliation between man and God? The unsaved Jew does not receive Christ; therefore the Father does not receive him. He is not God's, he is the devil's. God's favour and blessing is upon those who accept His Son. His judgment is upon those who reject Him.

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If the Jew loves Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!!

 

[Timtofly]

Are you just asking to be reported and banned from here because of your blatant lies? Is that what you want? No, I do not say Jesus needed eternal life! What is wrong with you? Please seek help. For you to say something like this to a Christian shows that you are not well. Not at all. Something is very, very wrong with you. No Christian would think that Jesus needed to be redeemed in order to have eternal life. That's complete nonsense.


Who said they don't? Certainly not me. Goodness sakes, are you for real?


Again, I've never said any such thing. Why would I think Jesus would need redemption when we all know He was sinless? You are unbelievable.

You keep calling Jesus the firstfruits. Those from sheol given a physical resurrection were the firstfruits. How is this not understood by you?

What Scripture does calling the entire Redeemed OT body waiting in Abraham's bosom the firstfruits, violate?

How does calling the disciples and Apostle Paul the firstfruits of the NT church, in so much violation of your own interpretations?

The only way all those OT redeemed and the early church can be the firstfruits is because of Jesus as the Lamb and the Messiah. They all were made alive while Jesus was personally and physically on the earth. That is the order Paul presented.

You keep denying that actual humans are the firstfruits, what am I supposed to believe from your interpretation? The fruit, firstfruit, has always been the harvest, yet you keep saying Jesus is the harvest, and Him alone.

I should be the one reporting you, no?