The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[The Light]

LOL. And you continue to provide nothing from God's Book. All you are alleging is your invented extra-biblical theory of 5 raptures. And because i do not see your extra-biblical theory i supposedly do not get end times. Seriously! Do you realize how ridiculous your reasoning sounds?

Come back when you are going to present hard Scripture instead of your own personal speculations.

Talk about LOL. I have provided plenty of scriptures that show God comes for His Chosen at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. Additionally He comes for the church in an hour that you think not.

You blathering on about not providing scripture is total GAR bage. You are too busy misrepresenting scripture on purpose to understand it.

 

[WPM]

Talk about LOL. I have provided plenty of scriptures that show God comes for His Chosen at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. Additionally He comes for the church in an hour that you think not.

You blathering on about not providing scripture is total GAR bage. You are too busy misrepresenting scripture on purpose to understand it.

So, please list (and highlight) your 5 raptures in Revelation, then in 1 Thessalonians 4-5, then Matt 24. I understand this involves opening your Bible, but it will be good for you. It is profitable to create good new habits.

 

[The Light]

So, please list (and highlight) your 5 raptures in Revelation, then in 1 Thessalonians 4-5, then Matt 24. I understand this involves opening your Bible, but it will be good for you. It is profitable to create good new habits.

The first rapture is the rapture of the Church. This is the dead in Christ in the spring harvest and the alive that remained in the summer harvest. These are not listed in Revelation, otherwise He would not be able to come in an hour you think not. However, we can tell the dead in Christ in Rev 4 have been raptured as there are 24 elders in heaven with crowns. We can also see the kings and priests from every nation, tongue etc. in Rev 5meaning the Church is also in heaven

The 144,000 are raptured here.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Then the fall harvest which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is here.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Then there is the rapture of the two witnesses.

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

I realize that you only know of one rapture. And you don't even know when that rapture occurs nor do you understand who is being raptured.

 

[WPM]

The first rapture is the rapture of the Church. This is the dead in Christ in the spring harvest and the alive that remained in the summer harvest. These are not listed in Revelation, otherwise He would not be able to come in an hour you think not. However, we can tell the dead in Christ in Rev 4 have been raptured as there are 24 elders in heaven with crowns. We can also see the kings and priests from every nation, tongue etc. in Rev 5meaning the Church is also in heaven

Ohhh!!! Really??? How convenient! You have nothing to support your Pretrib rapture before a tribulation period. Surprise surprise!!! I wonder why? Because it does not exist. It is a figment of your imagination. You are arguing from silence like I said. You have nothing. You are promoting an extra-biblical theory that contradicts numerous clear climactic Scripture.

This is why every single Christian should reject this error. It is a man-made fabrication foisted upon the inspired text.

 

[WPM]

The first rapture is the rapture of the Church. This is the dead in Christ in the spring harvest and the alive that remained in the summer harvest. These are not listed in Revelation, otherwise He would not be able to come in an hour you think not. However, we can tell the dead in Christ in Rev 4 have been raptured as there are 24 elders in heaven with crowns. We can also see the kings and priests from every nation, tongue etc. in Rev 5meaning the Church is also in heaven

The 144,000 are raptured here.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Then the fall harvest which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is here.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Then there is the rapture of the two witnesses.

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

I realize that you only know of one rapture. And you don't even know when that rapture occurs nor do you understand who is being raptured.

The word "Church" isn't even mentioned in Revelation 5 by name. Is that not the typical Pretrib reasoning to prove that the Church therefore is not present? Whatever way you look at it, Pretrib is hung on its own gallows.

How can you spiritualize the 24 Elders and insist on them being “the Church” but rubbish the idea that the Church is called “saints,” “them which are saved,” the “redeemed,” the “brethren,” the “chosen (or elect), and faithful,” “servants,” those “in / with white robes,” “kings and priests,” “souls,” “fellowservants,” “woman,” “the temple,” “the dead which die in the Lord,” “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark,” “he/him that overcometh,” “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments,” “my people,” “his people,” “much people,” “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation,” “the bride,” “the Lamb's wife,” “they that do/keep God’s commandments,” “the armies which were in heaven” and “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life”?

Talk about butchering Scripture! This is totally ridiculous! This definitely steals the biscuit!

The Church is also described in Revelation as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

Talk about hypocrisy and double-standards!!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

This does not place an AC any where in Revelation. I asked where in Revelation do you place the AC.

The "Beast" in Rev 13 is both a Kingdom and the leader over that Kingdom. I know this because the Beast is described as having 10 horns and 7 heads, the 10 horns representing 10 states and the 7 heads representing 7 leaders over those states.

So the Beast Kingdom consists of 10 kingdoms, as Dan 7 indicates. Rev 13 comes from Dan 7.

But we know the Beast is an individual leader, as well, because Dan 7 indicates that out of the 4th Kingdom emerges a Little Horn who will put down 3 of the leaders over these 10 states. He is therefore also shown to be an individual in Rev 13, 17, and elsewhere. He is identified as an individual along with the False Prophet....

Rev 19.20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Both the Beast and the False Prophet are individual leaders who preside over a larger empire, of sorts. The Beast is the "Antichrist" who John refers to as such, and who Paul referred to as the "Man of Sin."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Spiritual Jew and myself did also. He has made no response to any. I wonder why?

It's nice to be in agreement with you guys for a change. ;)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Talk about LOL. I have provided plenty of scriptures that show God comes for His Chosen at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. Additionally He comes for the church in an hour that you think not.

You blathering on about not providing scripture is total GAR bage. You are too busy misrepresenting scripture on purpose to understand it.

To say that Christ is coming in an hour that the Jewish believers "thought not" is not a declaration of Pretrib dogmatism! D-Day came unexpected by the Nazis, and was not even known by many of the allied solders until the proper time.And yet it was not designed to happen randomly on any old day!

But the Jewish believers thought that Israel would be restored fairly rapidly, and it didn't happen...

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Your argument about Jesus coming at the 6th Seal relies upon a belief that none of these visions are prolepses, ie visions of the future as if they are happening now. If these visions are confirming the same truths in the order of the narrative, and not in chronological order, then seeing Christ come in the 6th seal, at the 7th trumpet, or when the saints stood on the sea of glass, is purely a confirmation of the same Postrib setting.

This is why I demand from you *biblical teaching,* ie explicit biblical teaching declaring Pretrib dogma before I will believe it. That evidence, that proof, does not exist.

On the other hand, Dan 7, the Olivet Discourse, 2 Thes, and the book of Revelation all speak of one coming of the Son of Man for his Church and to establish God's Kingdom on earth. It happens in a moment on the last day of the present age, and only occurs with a coming *from heaven,* and not from any preliminary movement upon the earth claiming to be such.

 

[MA2444]

Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

Rapture verses, But Don't Believe Me! Check them for yourself and you can see.

John 14: 1-3
1 Corinthians 15:1-53
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Corinthians 1:7-8
1 Corinthians 15:21-23
Phillipians 3:20-21
Romans 8:19
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10
1 Thessalonians 2:19
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 23
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Timothy 6:14
Hebrews 9:28
James 5:7-9
1 Peter 1:7, 13
1 John 2:28
1 John 3:2
Jude 21
Revelation 2:-25
Revelation 3:10

There doesnt seem to be one single verse that says there shall be a pretrib rapture.
That doesnt mean it is not so. It simply means that it is something that is semi-concealed and that we must like Bereans, dig for it and put it together through the help of the HS. Now if that sounds like malarky then ponder this scripture from the wisdom of Solomon:

Proverbs 25:2
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter..../KJV

Now before you reject that as something about kings in the OT and isnt for us then also consider this:

Revelation 1:6
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen..../KJV

So it is an honour for us to search these things out. If that isnt acceptable to you then perhaps you need to pray on these things? Nevertheless, here is a couple scriptures which almost spell it out for you that do not lie. The OT alludes to the rapture, that is true, but to demand of us spell it out in one verse or it isnt true is a ridiculous assertion to make! Anyway...let's take you questions one at a time for brevity's sake.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words....KJV

And Paul talks more about it to the Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.../KJV

Paul says it is a mystery, so in the OT it was a mystery and now it is being taught on and understood by His people. Paul says, Behold I show you a mystery...

So...is it possible that it is concealed and must be mined for and discovered? Don't answer me on that, ask yourself that. And do me a favor if you are a good teacher, dont reply to me. Dont change the subject. No name calling or insults. Just, stick to the scriptures that I posted and address them and what they say,

 

[WPM]

It's nice to be in agreement with you guys for a change. ;)

I agree.

 

[WPM]

There doesnt seem to be one single verse that says there shall be a pretrib rapture.
That doesnt mean it is not so. It simply means that it is something that is semi-concealed and that we must like Bereans, dig for it and put it together through the help of the HS. Now if that sounds like malarky then ponder this scripture from the wisdom of Solomon:

Proverbs 25:2
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter..../KJV

Now before you reject that as something about kings in the OT and isnt for us then also consider this:

Revelation 1:6
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen..../KJV

So it is an honour for us to search these things out. If that isnt acceptable to you then perhaps you need to pray on these things? Nevertheless, here is a couple scriptures which almost spell it out for you that do not lie. The OT alludes to the rapture, that is true, but to demand of us spell it out in one verse or it isnt true is a ridiculous assertion to make! Anyway...let's take you questions one at a time for brevity's sake.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

1 Corinthians 15:51-54

So...is it possible that it is concealed and must be mined for and discovered? Don't answer me on that, ask yourself that. And do me a favor if you are a good teacher, dont reply to me. Dont change the subject. No name calling or insults. Just, stick to the scriptures that I posted and address them and what they say,

I appreciate your honesty in admitting that Pretrib is not clearly taught in the Bible. But your argument from "concealment" and "mystery" runs contrary to the NT revelation of Scripture, which is an unveiling of truth. Mormons, JWs and RCs use the same rhetoric to justify their extra-biblical teaching. Pretrib is not in good company. Scripture is enlightenment. Truth is clearly taught and retaught. It can be grasped by the simple. It is not just for the learned.

The Bible teaching on the second coming coming couldn't be clearer or simpler: when Jesus comes that is it. It is the end! Men are either ready or caught unexpectedly; they are caught up or caught on. They are either saved or lost. What is more, Scripture places our existence into two distinct and diverse ages: “this age” and” the age to come.” These two could not be more different. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time” and “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.” This is age is full of sin, death and corruption. The age to come is pristine, perfect and incorrupt. I could teach a child this.

Pretrib makes end-time teaching a convoluted cryptic mess that can only be understood by those who have studied the subject intensely. But even after years of trying to put the dots together, Pretribber still cannot get everything to add up. It is easy to get men who have taught this doctrine 40 years in circles because they cannot even truly explain it. It simply doesn't add up.

Remember, even a parable is a simple earthly story with a heavenly meaning. There are deep spiritual revelations that are simplified so that we can grasp them. This is not Jesus speaking cryptically or mystically, it is Jesus speaking spiritually, simply and clearly. The truth is only concealed from the unenlightened. Parables are invented stories that serve to illustrate deep profound spiritual truths that pertain to reality.

There is a simplicity to God’s truth. But we complicate it.

Your reference to Proverbs 25:2 has nothing to do with what we are talking about. It is not even in context.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 do not teach (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a third coming of Christ. You know that. You admit that.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 has nothing to do with what you are claiming. It declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed [Gr. allasso], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed [Gr. allasso]. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage is describing the great supernatural change that occurs to God’s people when Jesus returns and takes them from a temporal fallen “flesh and blood” existence to an eternal glorified condition. Corruptibility and mortality are shown here to be interlinked. Incorruption and immortality are also shown to be enjoined. They describe the two converse states existing in two completely different dimensions.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

There is a catching away ("rapture") here, but no tribulation period following. That is because it is ongoing since the early Church. If Pretrib was true, this is where you would find it, but no, It is not here. Neither can you add it to the inspired text. That is forbidden. What follows Christ's climactic appearing then? Total destruction!

This is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. This reading describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living believers will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

 

[The Light]

To say that Christ is coming in an hour that the Jewish believers "thought not" is not a declaration of Pretrib dogmatism! D-Day came unexpected by the Nazis, and was not even known by many of the allied solders until the proper time.And yet it was not designed to happen randomly on any old day!

But the Jewish believers thought that Israel would be restored fairly rapidly, and it didn't happen...

He comes for the Church in an hour that some of the Church think not. There are 5 wise virgins and 5 foolish. However, when the Lord comes at the 6th seal that day will not take the Jews unaware. They will know exactly when the Lord will come.

Your argument about Jesus coming at the 6th Seal relies upon a belief that none of these visions are prolepses, ie visions of the future as if they are happening now.

All the visions are prophesies so that is a mute point.

If these visions are confirming the same truths in the order of the narrative, and not in chronological order, then seeing Christ come in the 6th seal, at the 7th trumpet, or when the saints stood on the sea of glass, is purely a confirmation of the same Postrib setting.

The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, the second coming, is His coming immediately after the tribulation of those days. He comes immediately after the great tribulation.

The mistake that is made is thinking that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same timeframe. They are not. The tribulation will last 3.5 years the wrath of God, which is the day of the Lord LASTS ONE YEAR.

This is why I demand from you *biblical teaching,* ie explicit biblical teaching declaring Pretrib dogma before I will believe it. That evidence, that proof, does not exist.

It absolutely exists. But we are not told when it will happen as He is coming in an hour that some think not. There 5 wise and 5 foolish.
We are told to watch. So we will know when He comes.

On the other hand, Dan 7, the Olivet Discourse, 2 Thes, and the book of Revelation all speak of one coming of the Son of Man for his Church and to establish God's Kingdom on earth. It happens in a moment on the last day of the present age, and only occurs with a coming *from heaven,* and not from any preliminary movement upon the earth claiming to be such.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The people are shaken because they think they are in the great tribulation and that the Day of the Lord is getting ready to begin. Paul tells them that the gathering prior to the day of the Lord cannot happen until the man of sin is revealed. They are not in the great tribulation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Then don't say no Postribber "unpacked" the parable of the 10 Virgins. This is very misleading, since I made a serious effort to explain it myself. And I challenged you to show me anywhere I changed the parable, ie its component parts. And you did not respond to my challenge.

I will say it again, unless you think your disagreement disqualifies *anything* I may say? The 10 virgins used an OT analogy in which the "virgins" are like maids still under the Law. Only half of them had the oil in a permanent way, which indicates to me the adoption of a spiritual nature, as opposed to just a temporary use of God's gifts.

The coming of the Groom represents the 2nd Coming of Christ, at which time only those with an inward reborn nature will receive new glorified bodies. This enables us to be "married" to Christ, even though we already have the marriage contract certified in gold.

Not a single element of this is Pretrib, in my view. Nothing in the parable remotely suggests it from my point of view.

No postribber has ever unpacked the virgins parable without changing the components of the parable.
Not a single element fits postrib.
None of it.
However it fits a pretrib rapture perfectly.
Half the virgins/ believers taken.
Peacetime setting, normal life,and commerce, as all rapture verses are.
2nd coming has white horses blackening the sky, a warrioir king and no such 50% of believers taken.
So you got the setting wrong, and the virgins component changed, the groom turned into a warrior on a horse. and the white horses erroneously injected into the parable.

Really bizarre what that doctrine does to a simple parable.

 

[WPM]

No postribber has ever unpacked the virgins parable without changing the components of the parable.
Not a single element fits postrib.
None of it.
However it fits a pretrib rapture perfectly.
Half the virgins/ believers taken.
Peacetime setting, normal life,and commerce, as all rapture verses are.
2nd coming has white horses blackening the sky, a warrioir king and no such 50% of believers taken.
So you got the setting wrong, and the virgins component changed, the groom turned into a warrior on a horse. and the white horses erroneously injected into the parable.

Really bizarre what that doctrine does to a simple parable.

I think you think if you keep repeating this that it will somehow become true. It will not. It does not add up. It does not make sense. Your beliefs have been utterly refuted on this thread and you have ducked around the responses. You have to. That is because Pretrib does not add up. It has no biblical support. You know it. That is why you avoid the obvious. I will repost my avoided comments The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ [Gr. exerchomai] to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came [Gr. erchomai]; and they that were ready ‘went in’ [Gr. eiserchomai] with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

Most end-time commentators correctly relate this passage to the coming of Christ. Whilst we cannot find any mention of phrases like “caught up” or “gathering together” in this text there is broad agreement that there is a definite reference to the catching away or rescue of the saints in the direction “go ye out” and the resulting action – they “went in.”

The command “go ye out”is simply one Greek word exerchomai meaning depart, escape, or get out, go. The phrase describing the response of the faithful “went in” is the single Greek word eiserchomai normally translated in the New Testament as to ‘come in’ or ‘to enter’. It can also be interpreted ‘to arise’. In keeping with many second coming passages there is an allusion to those who escape the judgment of God as being those who made themselves “ready.” This is a common theme found in regard to the catching away. It certainly correlates with the consistent portrayal of this impending climactic event. This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming.

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I appreciate your honesty in admitting that Pretrib is not clearly taught in the Bible. But your argument from "concealment" and "mystery" runs contrary to the NT revelation of Scripture, which is an unveiling of truth. Mormons, JWs and RCs use the same rhetoric to justify their extra-biblical teaching. Pretrib is not in good company. Scripture is enlightenment. Truth is clearly taught and retaught. It can be grasped by the simple. It is not just for the learned.

The Bible teaching on the second coming coming couldn't be clearer or simpler: when Jesus comes that is it. It is the end! Men are either ready or caught unexpectedly; they are caught up or caught on. They are either saved or lost. What is more, Scripture places our existence into two distinct and diverse ages: “this age” and” the age to come.” These two could not be more different. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time” and “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.” This is age is full of sin, death and corruption. The age to come is pristine, perfect and incorrupt. I could teach a child this.

Pretrib makes end-time teaching a convoluted cryptic mess that can only be understood by those who have studied the subject intensely. It is easy to get men who have taught this doctrine 40 years in circles because they cannot even truly explain it. It simply doesn't add up.

Remember, even a parable is a simple earthly story with a heavenly meaning. There are deep spiritual revelations that are simplified so that we can grasp them. This is not Jesus speaking cryptically or mystically, it is Jesus speaking spiritually, simply and clearly. The truth is only concealed from the unenlightened. Parables are invented stories that serve to illustrate deep profound spiritual truths that pertain to reality.

There is a simplicity to God’s truth. But we complicate it.

Your reference to Proverbs 25:2 has nothing to do with what we are talking about. It is not even in context.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 do not teach (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a third coming of Christ. You know that. You admit that.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 has nothing to do with what you are claiming. It declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed [Gr. allasso], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed [Gr. allasso]. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage is describing the great supernatural change that occurs to God’s people when Jesus returns and takes them from a temporal fallen “flesh and blood” existence to an eternal glorified condition. Corruptibility and mortality are shown here to be interlinked. Incorruption and immortality are also shown to be enjoined. They describe the two converse states existing in two completely different dimensions.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

There is a catching away ("rapture") here, but no tribulation period following. That is because it is ongoing since the early Church. If Pretrib was true, this is where you would find it, but no, It is not here. Neither can you add it to the inspired text. That is forbidden. What follows Christ's climactic appearing then? Total destruction!

This is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. This reading describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living believers will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

You bet the farm on a word..."trumpet"
So just jettison the virgins parable, the "like manner" of Acts ch1, the rapture of rev 14:14, and the " before the flood pretrib rapture gathering of mat 24, the 2 escape verses by Jesus himself, the one taken left of mat 24,
And don't forget the last trump is blown every year at the feast of trumpets.
You can not, nor ever will, void the pretrib rapture verses with verses cleverly misaligned to fit your doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I think you think if you keep repeating this that it will somehow become true. It will not. It does not add up. It does not make sense. Your beliefs have been utterly refuted on this thread and you have ducked around the responses. You have to. That is because Pretrib does not add up. It has no biblical support. You know it. That is why you avoid the obvious. I will repost my avoided comments.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ [Gr. exerchomai] to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came [Gr. erchomai]; and they that were ready ‘went in’ [Gr. eiserchomai] with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

Most end-time commentators correctly relate this passage to the coming of Christ. Whilst we cannot find any mention of phrases like “caught up” or “gathering together” in this text there is broad agreement that there is a definite reference to the catching away or rescue of the saints in the direction “go ye out” and the resulting action – they “went in.”

The command “go ye out”is simply one Greek word exerchomai meaning depart, escape, or get out, go. The phrase describing the response of the faithful “went in” is the single Greek word eiserchomai normally translated in the New Testament as to ‘come in’ or ‘to enter’. It can also be interpreted ‘to arise’. In keeping with many second coming passages there is an allusion to those who escape the judgment of God as being those who made themselves “ready.” This is a common theme found in regard to the catching away. It certainly correlates with the consistent portrayal of this impending climactic event. This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming.

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

1 they are all 10 saved believers.
2 thank you for the " door wass shut" component. That aligns with the preflood pretrib door shutting with Noah.
Thanks , I had actually forgotten that one .
3 There is no " half left/taken with noah. There is only one 50% taken dynamic that fits anything..and that is the half the church taken/ left behind in the biblical pretrib rapture you aspire to void.
4 there is no " doomed for all eternity" in the parable.
Since you are the one changing the parable, I would say with great confidence you are DEFINITELY on the wrong path.

 

[rebuilder 454]

649 and 650 remain unaddressed. Spiritual Jew addressed this in 694. All were avoided by you.

Now see, that wasn't so hard.

 

[WPM]

You bet the farm on a word..."trumpet"
So just jettison the virgins parable, the "like manner" of Acts ch1, the rapture of rev 14:14, and the " before the flood pretrib rapture gathering of mat 24, the 2 escape verses by Jesus himself, the one taken left of mat 24,
And don't forget the last trump is blown every year at the feast of trumpets.
You can not, nor ever will, void the pretrib rapture verses with verses cleverly misaligned to fit your doctrine.

Keep posting your extra-biblical Pretrib propaganda. Keep avoiding the biblical rebuttals that are being presented, but this is only serving to expose the error of your position to those watching on. You are doing more to push the reader to Posttrib than I can do. You are showing how bereft Pretrib is of Bible support. I will repost my avoided responese to you above The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture:

Acts 1:10 demolishes the secret rapture, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven that will be the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to what do you have been taught, the second coming of Christ has not happened neither is it a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7, speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

Jesus warned in Matthew 24:23-27: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden and visible as lightning. What is more sudden and visually spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I did it above but you ignored. I will repost.

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

“one shall taken, and the other shall be left”

If we look closer at this passage we learn, “in that night (when He shall Come) there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be paraleemftheésetai (or) taken, and the other shall be afetheésetai (or) left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be paraleemftheésetai (or) taken, and the other afetheésetai (or) left.”

It is interesting when we look at the meaning of this Greek word paraleemftheésetai used here. Strong’s says that it indicates, “to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself in any familiar or intimate act or relation.” The word is interpreted elsewhere in the King James Version as ‘receive’, ‘take unto’ or ‘take with’. The company that are therefore received by Christ in this passage are those that have been brought into an intimate mystical union with Him through salvation; they are His elect. This narrative is unquestionably referring to the catching away of the saints, and the marriage of the lamb.

This is the same word that Christ used in John 14:3 when He promised His disciples that He would come again to receive them, saying, “In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and paraleémpsomai (or) receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Interestingly, the word used here to describe the second party in view is the Greek word afetheésetai, which carries the meaning to forsake, put away or lay aside. This is the fate that awaits the wicked alone when Christ comes in all His glory.

No one that has taken the time to examine the meaning of the Greek words for “taken” and “left” can surely deny that the definition of “taken” is manifestly positive and the definition of “left” is patently negative.

Q. What then happens to those left behind?

A. The Lord’s solemn warning in the midst of the aforementioned narrative confirms the answer, and is in complete agreement with Christ’s unambiguous preceding comments in the same chapter, and every other explicit passage in Scripture. He makes it abundantly clear that instant and complete destruction befalls the wicked. He solemnly counsels the disciples, “Remember Lot's wife.”

Remember Lot's

Q. Why must we “remember Lot's wife”? What befell her?

She got caught in the escape out of Sodom because her heart was still there. Despite being fully aware of the impending destruction, Lot's wife’s heart was located in Sodom and towards the awful iniquity; this was despite the fact that she also desired to be with the people of God. Notwithstanding, Genesis 19:26 says of Lot, “his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.”

Her foolish refusal to once-and-for-all turn her back on Sodom caused her to be instantly and completely destroyed. Through her un-preparedness, she was immediately cast into a lost hell – damned and doomed for all eternity – without hope and without Christ.

What Christ is therefore warning in this reading is this: ‘Remember Lot's wife because she was found wanting on the day when God finally poured out His judgment upon the wicked; be warned because His second coming will similarly expose the heart of every hypocrite, although on this occasion it will be for the very final time. Those left behind will face the same punishment as Lot’s wife – total destruction.

When Noah left the world of his day and entered into the ark
there were many left lying in beds and grinding at mills to receive
the wrath of God and therefore destruction. The same happened in Lot's day. The same will happen at Christ's Coming.

After Christ described the destruction that accompanies His return, He talks about one being rescued the other being destroyed. Jesus tells us that those left behind will suffer the same total, immediate and awful doom that Noah's world and Sodom suffered in their day (Luke 17). Once the ark door closes that is it. It is too late.

Where ever the carcass is there the eagles will be gathered together

The disciples then ask: “Where, Lord?” Christ replies: “Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” Eagles flock to where there is prey. Where bodies lie that is where they will congregate. Death and destruction mark the aftermath of God’s judgment. Whilst God’s people are rescued the wicked perish in destruction.

The eagles devour those left behind. Rev 19 correlates.

Huh? There is no one taken/ left with lot or Noah.
50 % of believers are taken in mat 24 and in the 10 virgins parable.
You have 50% of the planet saved and 50% unsaved.
Really???
BTW that looks like a copy paste job on that post.
See what I mean????
Postrib rapture is just unbelievably poorly thought out.
They got 50% of the planet saved...50 % heathen with a devil mark on their foreheads.
They also have; a devil worshiping unbeliever, with a devil tattoo on his forehead, in bed with an on fire Holy Ghost filled saint of God. They even have a devil worshiping heathen ,with a devil tattoo on his forehead fellowshipping with an on fire Holy Ghost filled child of God. They also have a tore up planet, in a huge War, With Heaven and a devil Antichrist, as the setting, that they corrupted, because the true setting is, peacetime , Commerce , and normal life , in the Rapture verses. So, on and on , they changed the setting hoping that nobody will notice in the erroneous post trip Rapture Doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Keep posting your extra-biblical Pretrib propaganda. Keep avoiding the biblical rebuttals that are being presented, but this is only serving to expose the error of your position to those watching on. You are doing more to push the reader to Posttrib than I can do. You are showing how bereft Pretrib is of Bible support. I will repost my avoided responese to you above The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture:

Acts 1:10 demolishes the secret rapture, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven that will be the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to what do you have been taught, the second coming of Christ has not happened neither is it a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7, speaking of this climactic last day, John says, “Behold, he (Christ) cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him (the Jews): and all kindreds of the earth (the Gentile nations) shall wail because of him”

This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.” The swiftness of Christ’s coming and the speed of the rescue of the saints precludes any possibility of the wicked repenting.

Jesus warned in Matthew 24:23-27: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden and visible as lightning. What is more sudden and visually spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text.

Well let me tell you that your false assertion I avoid your little misconstrued posts is a lie.
I don't AVOID any of your misplaced verses or posts.
So let it be established every time you do that you just keep your deflection going and lie about what my intentions are.
There is no post by you that I can not handle and destroy with great ease.
You expose yourself to be corrected easily by anyone with a Bible.
No cleverness by you,( or any parable changing postribber) has ever had any traction.
It only works in the minds of postribbers.
We own end times ,and we eagerly await your next misconstrued verses for correction.