The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[Spiritual Israelite]

No 1 Thes 4 describes the spring barley harvest and the summer wheat harvest. Learn the feast of God.

If this was the case, why isn't it explained in scripture? Both Jesus and Paul gave a lot of clear and straightforward details regarding the second coming of Christ and, yet, neither of them said anything about "the spring barley harvest and the summer wheat harvest". You are adding to scripture to make it fit your doctrine. You turn something simple into something so convoluted that only you can even understand it. That is not how the truth works. There are so many lone wolves like you on this forum who think they, and they alone, have all the answers. Unbelievable. Does God reveal the truth of these things to only one person? Absolutely not.

The alive that remain will not prevent them which are asleep. The dead in Christ will rise first. They will go heaven. The Lord will bring them with Him when He returns for the alive that remained.

That is not what it says. While things will likely happen very quickly at that point, there is still an order to it. The first thing that happens is described in verse 14. Them which are asleep (the dead in Christ) are with Jesus. They will be gathered to Him in heaven. That is their souls which are in heaven now with Him. Next, after they are with Him in order to come with Him from heaven, He descends from heaven. It can be implied that the souls of the dead in Christ descend with Him or else verse 14 would make no sense because that verse very clearly says they will be with Him when He comes at that time. Next, the bodies of the dead in Christ are resurrected. And we know from 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 that their bodies will be changed to be immortal at that point along with the bodies of those who are alive and remain. Finally, "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air".

One event is described in 1 Thess 4:14-17. Not two entirely different events as you imagine.

You are confusing the Lord Himself coming and the Lord sending His angels.

Nowhere does 1 Thess 4:14-17 say that His angels aren't with Him when He descends from heaven. You can't expect two passages that are about the same event to contain all the same details about that event. That is not reasonable.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Pretrib hermeneutics are horrible. They make it up as they go. Where anywhere in Jeremiah does it mention a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming, never mind Jeremiah 30?

You misinterpret an Old Testament prophecy (Jeremiah 30) that expressly relates to the Babylonian exile, and apply it to some supposed Pretrib rapture, some alleged 7 years trib or a 3rd coming that is not remotely mentioned in the passage. This is how Pretrib hermeneutics work. They employ theological dubious colored rules. This shows us how bereft Pretrib is of biblical support.

It is so hard engaging with this position is because you have to deprogram them from all the false teaching that they have been taught over the years.

Jacob's troubles are not mentioned anywhere in Revelation or anywhere else in the New Testament. Pretribbers have to force it in there.

Dispensationalists boast often about the need for a literalist approach to Scripture. But when their theology is tested by the Word of God it is seen to fall short. When we analyze their boast, we find truth after truth and passage after passage that they butcher in order to facility their doctrine. Not only do they not take a literal approach but they also repeatedly fail to acknowledge context or setting. The subject of Jacob’s trouble is a case-in-point.

Pretribbers rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it to some imaginary seven-year period at the end, to support their end-time beliefs.

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. Also, it has absolutely nothing to do with the end of time. It rather describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Yes, on much of this I have to agree. There is no explicit Pretrib Teaching anywhere in all of the so-called "proofs" and "evidences" of the position. It is the brain child of John N. Darby, who hoped to add to his renewal of Futurism his own brand and name.

In adding Pretrib Teaching to his version of Futurism he took a number of OT prophecies and rendered them applicable to the endtimes where he could distinguish between an Israeli plan and a Christian plan. But that plan has always been in place, and has not needed a "future" version.

And many of the OT prophetic fulfillments have already been fulfilled, and do not require an endtimes application. Dan 9 is an example, though I'm not sure about the prophecy of "Jacob's Trouble."

 

[WPM]

Exactly. The coming of the Lord, the second coming, and the gathering from heaven and earth occurs immediately after the tribulation.

What you haven't figured out is it is the Church that is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth that is gathered from the earth. Those of the twelve tribes that come out of great tribulation, are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

But you can't possibly understand this because you are wearing the "The Church has replaced Israel" glasses.

The gathering from heaven and earth occurs immediately after the tribulation.


Which are those with their blindness remove from the 12 tribes across the earth


That would be the Church that is already in heaven that is gathered from heaven.


It is the Church that comes WITH Him as we are gathered from heaven (raptured pretrib). It is the believing seed of the woman, 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured from the earth immediately after the tribulation of those days. That is who He comes FOR.


You still don't get it do you. What all the dweller from the face of the earth can escape from is the DAY OF THE LORD. The days of the Lord is the 1 year wrath of God. You have the Church on earth during the trumpets of Gods wrath. The Church is raptured before the great tribulation. The twelve tribes across the earth are raptured immediately after the tribulation, at the 6th seal, BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD.

You have the Church going through the wrath of God, when we are not appointed to wrath.

What you believe is entirely against the scripture and easily provable.


When the Church is raptured when it is like the days of Noah, the door is shut.

Lot leaves Sodom the days of destruction. That day is the Day of the Lord.

There are two raptures.

Pretrib is based upon extra-biblical theories, private opinion, odious amounts of "by implication," much double-speak and convoluted language, forced fabricated types, and man-made terms.

Where in the Bible does it say that "the Church ... is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth that is gathered from the earth"?

I think you think if you keep repeating a personal opinion enough then it will make it a biblical fact. That is not the way it works. Quite the opposite!

Where in the Bible does it say that "there are two raptures"? Please quote it. You know it is not there. You impose it upon the sacred text.

You are selective of what the dead in Christ are singing now in glory. Not only are they singing "the song of Moses the servant of God" but they are also singing "the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints." This is the song of the redeemed..

Your Dispensatanist apartheid theology is in error. You are always trying to divide the people of God, when God has made them one people. The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

There are many unique metaphors used in the New Testament that you cannot find in the Old Testament. That does not negate the fact that God's people throughout time are one. They are a unitary whole. You cannot divide them in two. You cannot decapitate them. Christ does not believe in ethnic apartheid like Dispensationalism. Let us be clear, we are dealing with the greater and fuller revelation in the New Testament. It puts meat on the bones to the old covenant disclosure. What is vague or absurd in the Old Testament is fully revealed in the New Testament. This is something that many Dispensationalists do not seem to see.

The intimate bond between Christ and His people (and His absolute place of authority) is profoundly illustrated by many significant earthly analogies and varying symbolic images in the New Testament for, in some way, to portray the perfect intimacy of that relationship. It is commonly (and aptly) described in the theological world as ‘the mystical union’ between Christ and His elect.

Some of the examples are found in:

(a) The bond between a father and his son.
(b) The unity between the head and the body.
(c) The intimacy between a husband and his wife.
(d) The union between a temple and its foundation.
(e) The connection between a tree and its branches.
(f) The relationship between a shepherd and his sheep.

The distinctive bonds between the aforementioned pictures go in some small way to represent the eternal connection and intimacy between the believer and Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Then you don't hold to a Millennium reign of Christ either?

I'm a Premillennialist. I acknowledge that it is controversial, but that is my conviction.

I was not comparing Noah to the church. I was comparing Noah to Israel who fled into the wilderness for 3.5 years, while Satan had his empire for 42 months. The Flood would represent Satan's control, that Israel is protected from...

Yea, in the NT era I'm largely concerned with the Church--not Israel. Israel has had her witness to Christ, and has rejected it. Now, her salvation rests on what follows after judgment to be revealed at Christ's Coming. I think God's mercy is still reaching out to Israel, but is reaching a rather small minority of Jewish People. Still, I'm confident that God can use that remnant to prepare the nation for life after judgment.

The church left years before Noah got into the ark, when Enoch was translated and no longer found on the earth.

This is what happens when you try to fit your eschatology into biblical history. You can make anything mean anything you want it to mean. That's why I ask for explicit biblical teaching when it comes to doctrine. The Holy Spirit is not "hard of speaking."

I don't see Israel nor the Second Coming harvest as ever being part of the church. They wait on the sea of glass mentioned in Revelation. The church has been waiting in Paradise since the Cross. Not on a sea of glass. The sea of glass is the 3.5 year place of safety for those removed from the earth and directly chosen by Jesus to live on the earth, during the millennium. The Second Coming already happened, and the church removed, before this final harvest in which the 144k are sealed and protected as well. The 144k and those on the sea of glass are those on white horses, returning to live on the earth during the Millennium, after being carried away on eagles wings, prior to Satan's 42 months. Are these literal eagles wings, or white horses upon which they return? Are the white horses literal, or just the metaphor of a great army?

I cannot discuss prophecy with those who read anything they want into Apocalyptic symbolism. You don't rely on explicit biblical teaching, but concoct your own with little reference to things the Bible itself makes important.

Not the church. The church is still waiting for the New Jerusalem to come to earth. That is their home, not earthly Jerusalem where Jesus reigns, and the 144k are constantly in attendance to Jesus as King.

The dead still wait in sheol until the GWT. Would not the church still wait in Paradise, until the New Jerusalem descends to earth?

The Millennium is not for all the dead and all the church from all time to live on the earth. It is the Kingdom of peace promised to earthly Israel based from earthly Jerusalem.

I don't think so. I think we sometimes think the future Kingdom of God is only for Israel because this is based on OT prophecy where Israel was the predominant focus among the nations.

But that is no longer true. God's people have expanded to include many nations. Israel is not special, but is included in this mix.

Today Christian nations have taken a "hard landing" and are relatively non-Christian now. So we have Christian minorities among many nations, including Israel. In the Millennium I believe that Israel will become a Christian nation and that post-Christian nations will return to being Christian nations. I base this belief on God's promises made to Abraham, to be father of Israel and of many nations.

The Christians caught up and glorified at Christ's Coming will probably reign from heaven like angels until the end of the Millennium. To be honest I don't really know.

If one is not amil or post mill, why would they think all are immediately dead at the Second Coming? Amil have pointed out that no humans are even left on the earth after Armageddon, yet post trib people who accept the Day of the Lord is a thousand years have humans stashed away some where still in Adam's dead state flourishing on earth who escaped God's notice. Did humans escape the Flood of Noah's day to fill the earth faster than the bottleneck of only 8 humans? Why would that be the case at Armageddon?

I can speculate, but it won't be worthy anymore than your interpretations based purely on symbolic interpretation. The Flood wiped out all of mankind in the cradle of civilization. It likely wiped out only people and animals in that region of the world. I don't know.

The use of "universal" language can be applied to one's immediate experience as well as in the global sense. In the days of Noah they had no sense of an earthly globe regardless--they only knew their immediate surroundings and their language reflected that.

But let's say that humanity had only just begun and all human civilization was in the area of the Black Sea. An enormous shift in earth and weather pattern could create an enormous flood that would engulf all of the nearby lower hills so that it could be said that the waters of the flood "covered the whole earth." Not the globe, but the earth, meaning all land within sight.

So if people did not live on the other side of the earth, or even if they did, the Flood would not affect them. But in these endtimes, people live everywhere on the earth. So when judgment from God comes against the whole world, due to its serious erosion of godly values, it makes sense that people everywhere will be judged and that in some places not a single human being will be left alive--just as in the Flood.

But as in the case of the Flood, many parts of the earth remained unmolested by water so in the last days judgment there will be many places on earth not destroyed by atomic bombs. There will be many survivors.

As the book of Revelation indicates, only a fraction will be decimated--many will be left alive. Paul himself said that when Christ returns many will be left alive after the judgment. This is a very controversial and speculative subject. You have to decide what Scriptures are really teaching--not just interpret symbolic language as you wish.

 

[WPM]

Exactly. The coming of the Lord, the second coming, and the gathering from heaven and earth occurs immediately after the tribulation.

What you haven't figured out is it is the Church that is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth that is gathered from the earth. Those of the twelve tribes that come out of great tribulation, are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

But you can't possibly understand this because you are wearing the "The Church has replaced Israel" glasses.

The coming (or parousia) of the Lord is when Jesus comes to rescue all His elect and destroy all the wicked. That is the only two peoples that He recognizes on planet earth. You invent a 3rd group that are too wicked be rescued yet too righteous to be destroyed. Who is this invented people? They don't exist in reality. They are a figment of your imagination.

The Gentiles who believe in Christ do not form a new people of God. They become part of an already existing faithful Israel. So, New Testament Gentiles have not replaced ethnic Israel, they have joined spiritual remnant Israel.

Jesus said, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Who was God going to unite us to? Was it Christ-rejecting Jews in the Middle east or was it faithful remnant Israel?

Christ was simply informing these Jewish believers that grace was going to be widened outside of their ethnic race. The Gentiles were about to be brought into the same unitary fold of grace as the Jewish believers – on equal terms. The mentioning of two groupings within the body didn't indicate "two folds" any more than references to male and female, rich and poor, free and bond, Jew and Gentile represented multiple folds amongst the people of God. Rather it simply shows the variety of members within the one godly fold.

The continuation of the believing Israeli flock, and its morphing into the New Testament congregation, confirmed the expansion of faithful Israel in the new covenant period. It also explains the Israeli identify of the new covenant people of God and demonstrates the sense of continuity that existed between both covenant eras. Gentiles were now to be corralled into faithful Israel in extraordinary numbers. They trusted in Israel’s Messiah, they joined the old covenant flock, and became the New Testament people of God. This was a radical overhaul for even the most open-minded of Christ’s disciples. We saw that in their parochial response to Christ’s kingdom teaching in Acts 1:6 and with their struggle in the book of Acts to come to terms with accommodating Gentiles joining the congregation (ekklesia) on an equal basis to that of Jews.

Ephesians 2:10-19 declares, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (politeia or citizenship – Strong’s 4174) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens (sumpolites – Strong’s 4847) with the saints, and of the household of God. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

Who was God going to unite us to? Was it Christ-rejecting Jews in the Middle east or was it faithful remnant Israel?

We are enjoined to believing Old Testament Israel through Jesus Christ. We have been made one. The wall of separation is gone forever. Israel has been expanded to embrace all nations today. We are true Israel. We are the circumcision. This union comes exclusively through the blood of Jesus. Anyone who refuses to embrace the cross is an enemy of God, not a friend.

According to this passage, what parties were divided with a spiritual wall? Who has Christ made one? The overwhelmingly Jewish Old Testament redeemed Church and the overwhelmingly Gentile New Testament redeemed Church. This settlement is a spiritual union of believers. This is not a natural arrangement. The fact that Christ and His work on the cross is the means of unification shows that we are looking at God’s elect throughout time. There is no other way of salvation for man.

 

[WPM]

Exactly. The coming of the Lord, the second coming, and the gathering from heaven and earth occurs immediately after the tribulation.

What you haven't figured out is it is the Church that is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth that is gathered from the earth. Those of the twelve tribes that come out of great tribulation, are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

But you can't possibly understand this because you are wearing the "The Church has replaced Israel" glasses.

The gathering from heaven and earth occurs immediately after the tribulation.


Which are those with their blindness remove from the 12 tribes across the earth


That would be the Church that is already in heaven that is gathered from heaven.


It is the Church that comes WITH Him as we are gathered from heaven (raptured pretrib). It is the believing seed of the woman, 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured from the earth immediately after the tribulation of those days. That is who He comes FOR.


You still don't get it do you. What all the dweller from the face of the earth can escape from is the DAY OF THE LORD. The days of the Lord is the 1 year wrath of God. You have the Church on earth during the trumpets of Gods wrath. The Church is raptured before the great tribulation. The twelve tribes across the earth are raptured immediately after the tribulation, at the 6th seal, BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD.

You have the Church going through the wrath of God, when we are not appointed to wrath.

What you believe is entirely against the scripture and easily provable.


When the Church is raptured when it is like the days of Noah, the door is shut.

Lot leaves Sodom the days of destruction. That day is the Day of the Lord.

There are two raptures.

Multiple Old Testament passages had predicted the ingathering of countless Gentiles into the covenant family. There was no sense of division or inferiority in those predictions. Quite the opposite! Jews and Gentiles would equally experience full salvation through the vicarious work of Christ in His faithful earthly assignment on man’s behalf. They would both take on the same spiritual status.

The apostle wraps up his teaching in Romans 11:17-24 with an analogy of a good olive tree, saying: “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree (Gentiles), wert graffed in among them (natural Israel), and with them (natural Israel), partakest of the root (Jesus) and fatness (or oiliness) of the olive tree. Boast not against the branches (Israel). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root (Jesus), but the root (Jesus) thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches (natural Israel) were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they (natural Israel) were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches (natural Israel), take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches (natural Israel), be graffed into their own olive tree?”

Who was God going to unite us to? Was it Christ-rejecting Jews in the Middle east or was it faithful remnant Israel?

No one could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree. Romans 11:24 explains, speaking about natural Israel: “these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” This is an Israeli tree that holds Israeli citizens. But it was not merely a natural Israeli tree but a spiritual Israeli tree. It was a believing company. After all, if it were simply natural there would be absolutely no reason to cut out natural Israelites simply on the grounds of their race. We are clearly looking at a spiritual tree that accommodates both the believing Jew and the believing Gentile from both Old and New Testament. It embodies all those who belong to the “household of faith” throughout time.

The natural branches were broken off because of “unbelief.” Only believing Israelites survived on that tree. This is God’s faithful remnant. Gentiles have been enjoined to true Israel now “by faith.” This believing tree embodies God’s chosen people, irrespective of race. They are true Israelites. These are actually of the citizenship of Israel.

Those who are part of this symbolic tree enjoy a common spiritual identity that is reflected in a new type of citizenship. It is a spiritual citizenship that is heaven-centered which only believers can enjoy. This symbolic tree represents the Israel of God from throughout the nations – the only Israel God recognizes. No unbeliever is part of it because partaking in its blessing and sustenance comes through the exercise of faith. This joining of Jews and Gentiles together fulfilled many of the promises Abraham received about the nations being blessed in him (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

 

[Randy Kluth]

I have never seen a single postribber unpack the virgins parable..

Are you forgetting, engaging in dishonesty, or putting some kind of strange slant on conversation? I had this discussion a short time ago, and offered my own version of the 10 virgins parable. 10 Virgins

The whole thread was about this, and yet you say no Postribber "unpacked" the parable? Do you mean that nobody "unpacked" it in a way that you certify as legitimate? ;)

 

[Timtofly]

The dead in Christ rise first once Jesus descends from heaven at his second coming. What would be the point of that if they already have their physical body?

Romans 8:23
And not only this, but we too, who have the first fruits of the Spirit [a joyful indication of the blessings to come], even we groan inwardly, as we wait eagerly for [the sign of] our adoption as sons—the redemption and transformation of our body [at the resurrection].


Did Jesus get his body back after it was dead?



26 Eight days later His disciples were again inside the house, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though the doors had been barred, and stood among them and said, “Peace to you.” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and put out your hand and place it in My side. Do not be unbelieving, but [stop doubting and] believe.” 28 Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, do you now believe? Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, and favored by God] are they who did not see [Me] and yet believed [in Me].”


36 While they were talking about this, Jesus Himself [suddenly] stood among them and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were startled and terrified and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said, “Why are you troubled, and why are doubts rising in your hearts? 39 Look at [the marks in] My hands and My feet, [and see] that it is I Myself. Touch Me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.” 40 After saying this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still did not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave Him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and He took it and ate it in front of them.

So if those alive and remain rise second, is that also a resurrection?

Jesus was not born with sinful flesh. Jesus had a physical human body that knew no sin. So yes, Jesus got His permanent incorruptible physical body back that He used to physically die on the Cross.

Do we get Adam's sinful corruptible body back after physical death? No! 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (Adam's dead corruptible flesh) were dissolved, we have a building of God (a permanent incorruptible physical body), an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

What do you think those alive on the earth are changed into? The same bodies those in Paradise already have. They all have been changed. No one gets Adam's dead corruptible flesh back. Sons of God have God's permanent incorruptible physical body just like Adam had before Adam disobeyed God, and physically died, was changed into a temporal corruptible body of death. The alive and remain are changed as fast as Adam and Eve were when Adam disobeyed God. They did not feel any pain when the change happened, nor will we, when the change back happens. As simple as putting on a change of clothes.

That being said it is nice to see you believe that the first resurrection has already taken place before the second coming...all be it a Spiritual one and not a physical one as you propose.

Nope! Is your spirit dead and in need of a resurrection, or your body? Does your spirit get buried in the ground, or your body? Is your spirit changed, or your body.

You all are funny thinking your body is a spirit. The first resurrection happened to Lazarus about 10 days before Jesus died on the Cross. The first resurrection may happen to dead people from sheol at the GWT Judgment event. The first resurrection happens when the soul puts on a physical body.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes indeed.
We can disagree and not let it come to any resentment or disrespect.
Rather, let it be "concept vs concept" ...nothing personal

Yes, nothing personal. However, when some who wish to argue faith and doctrine cheapen the discussion with reckless claims then they are less deserving of so-called "respect." A moment ago, you seemed to argue that "no Postrib has unpacked the 10 Virgins parable," or did I misread this?

Regardless, I appreciate your good will. Keep in mind that out of respect for my brother's learning in Hebrew language in the Scriptures I defer to him. But I don't necessarily agree with his position. And that's because WPM made a great argument that I have not yet been able to refute.

It appears that Jesus did say that in the day Noah entered the ark the Flood began. Have you explained this yet?

Matt 24.38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.

So it appears to me that both things are true. God asked Noah to enter the ark *before* 7 more days lapsed. And only then did the Flood start. And, the day Noah entered the ark, the Flood came. How are both of these things true?

My brother simply stated that it seemed to him that the 7 days had to follow God asking Noah to enter the ark. That certainly is true. But then how can it be said that the Flood immediately followed Noah's entry into the ark? Here is the actual account...

Gen 7.11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark.

There it is again. On the day Noah entered the ark, the "great deep burst forth," ie the Flood started. What happened to the 7 days that followed Noah's entry onto the ark? I haven't resolved this yet. I just accept what you and my brother say was true, that 7 days followed Noah's entry into the ark.

None of this proves a thing about the "Tribulation," or the future Reign of Antichrist. But I can understand why you would wish to fit this in there between Noah's entry into the ark and the devastation that followed 7 days later. Be well.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL!!!!!!! Why do I have to make up my mind about that? Can the truth of this matter of whether or not there is such thing as a pre-trib rapture only be determined by determining who the 24 elders are? LOL!!!!! Certainly not. You are unbelievably ridiculous.

Your approach to interpreting scripture is just horrible. The foundation of your doctrine is upon highly debatable passages like this instead of clear, straightforward scripture. That is unwise.


Paul said that Christ Himself is the firstfruits.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

This very specifically indicates that Christ Himself had "become the firstfruits" by way of His resurrection from the dead. The firstfruits of who or what? Them that slept. The dead in Christ (see 1 Thess 4:14,16). The Greek word translated as "firstfruits" can also mean "firstfruit". That it says "firstfruits" is throwing you off, making you think it is talking about firstfruits (plural) but it very clearly calls Christ Himself the firstfruits. It should have been translated as firstfruit instead to avoid confusion.


You are the one making them the lastfruits if you relate it to the second coming. To me, they are the same firstfruits of the twelve tribes of Israel that James mentions in James 1:18 and they have been in heaven with Jesus a long time already. In our view, they truly are the firstfruits, but in yours they are the lastfruits.

Without Christ all are dead, no one is a firstfruit without the Lamb. But if humans are not the fruit at all, as you declare, who are the fruit, the elders some claim are angels?

You say Jesus needed eternal life, if he is the first fruit to be redeemed, no? If humans don't need eternal life, then who does?

The 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom, for Jesus is declared the 7th Kingdom at the 7th Trumpet. You deny the Day of the Lord, so you will never understand the concept until your blindness is removed at the Second Coming.

You're the ridiculous one, with a human understanding, that thinks Jesus needed redemption and was the firstfruit out of sin and death. The word is plural because the whole OT body in Abraham's bosom was the firstfruits of the Cross, not Jesus, as Jesus did not need to be redeemed, but was the means of redemption.

 

[jeffweeder]

So if those alive and remain rise second, is that also a resurrection?

The living are changed to a new body and the dead rise with their new body, and together (simultaneously) they meet the Lord in the air.

16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the [b]archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord!



We are told that the living will not proceed those dead in Christ. The dead in Christ must rise before the living are caught up in the air. Both groups meet him in the air at the same time.


15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]

 

[Timtofly]

John takes his term "Antichrist" form the "Little Horn" in Dan 7 who stands opposed to the coming Son of Man and God's Kingdom. He is therefore identified as an "Antichrist," or "anti-Son of Man."

This does not place an AC any where in Revelation. I asked where in Revelation do you place the AC.

 

[Timtofly]

That verse does not have the same context as John 5:28-29 which only referred to a future event and not something that "now is" (was already happening at the time Jesus was speaking). That verse should be understood in the same sense as what Paul wrote about here:

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Notice here how Paul wrote about living believers being formerly spiritually "dead in your transgressions and sins", but then being made "alive with Christ" and he related this to being spiritually saved by grace. So, that is talking about being made spiritually alive while we are physically alive after previously being spiritually "dead in your transgressions and sins". That is what Jesus was saying in John 5:24-25 as well. He then went on to talk about bodily resurrections in John 5:28-29.

Once again you deny a physical resurrection, but resort to human understanding. This body is the sin and transgressions that weight us down. Paul related this body to the old man that needs to be crucified. Have you forgotten all those points? Your body is not spiritually dead, it is the very state of death, hence the term mortal.

You just gloss over that Lazarus had a physical resurrection, and all the OT had a physical resurrection at the Cross, because it messes up your eschatology. You cannot accept that the hour of the first resurrection did happen for Lazarus as a physical resurrection.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I will give this a stab.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ [Gr. exerchomai] to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came [Gr. erchomai]; and they that were ready ‘went in’ [Gr. eiserchomai] with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

Most end-time commentators correctly relate this passage to the coming of Christ. Whilst we cannot find any mention of phrases like “caught up” or “gathering together” in this text there is broad agreement that there is a definite reference to the catching away or rescue of the saints in the direction “go ye out” and the resulting action – they “went in.”

The command “go ye out”is simply one Greek word exerchomai meaning depart, escape, or get out, go. The phrase describing the response of the faithful “went in” is the single Greek word eiserchomai normally translated in the New Testament as to ‘come in’ or ‘to enter’. It can also be interpreted ‘to arise’. In keeping with many second coming passages there is an allusion to those who escape the judgment of God as being those who made themselves “ready.” This is a common theme found in regard to the catching away. It certainly correlates with the consistent portrayal of this impending climactic event. This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming.

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

Agree completely. I particularly like what you said towards the end here. If people would just learn to interpret scripture with scripture properly, then passages like Matthew 25:1-13 become very clear as to what they mean. As you indicated, after the door is shut, surely Jesus will not tell the kind of people that the door is only shut temporarily for them, but they will get another chance. No. What a terrible interpretation of the parable it is to give the foolish virgins another chance despite already having plenty of chances before Jesus comes.

Making people think they can put off repenting of their sins and putting their faith in Christ until a later time when they get a second chance to do so is a lie from the pit of hell. No, today is the day of salvation! Tomorrow may not come. Put it off until tomorrow at your own peril! Satan likes nothing better than for people to believe there is no urgency in repenting and trusting in Christ and that is the kind of mindset that pre-trib and premil promote.

All we need to do is look for what Jesus said elsewhere that is similar to what the bridegroom said to the foolish virgins in the parable to understand what will happen to the kind of people represented by the foolish virgins.

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Surely, Jesus was talking about the same day here as the day of His coming in the parable in Matthew 25:1-13. Notice He says to those who say "Lord, Lord" (just like the foolish virgins say in the parable), "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity". So, the question is, depart to where? All we need to do is look at the beginning of the passage in verse 19 where Jesus said "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.". So, He is talking about them departing from Him and being cast into the lake of fire on judgment day (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15) and not being given a second chance to repent.

Okay, the case has been made that the parable supports the post-trib, amil view. We should see no more talk about us supposedly avoiding that parable.

 

[Timtofly]

You missed the point as you always do. How many people do you know who agree with your overall doctrine? I would think none. I've never seen anyone else who believes what you do. But, many people believe the same as I do. My point is that God does not reveal truth to just one person. If you think so, then you think way too highly of yourself.

You don't even understand me, how can you even know what I believe?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Once again you deny a physical resurrection, but resort to human understanding.

Do you have anything to offer besides lies? I absolutely do NOT deny a physical resurrection. I simply see that as being described in John 5:28-29 rather than John 5:24-25.

Do you understand what it means for someone to be dead in their transgressions and sins? Do you understand that Paul applied that concept to living people and not physically dead people? Please tell me your understanding of what it means to be dead in transgressions and sins and later made alive with Christ while still bodily alive, as Paul talked about in Ephesians 2:1-6.

All you do is make ridiculous comments without actually showing what the scriptures mean. You know, like I do and several others here do. Is it too much to ask for you to do that as well? Probably.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't even understand me, how can you even know what I believe?

That's the question I should be asking you since you misrepresent what I believe so often. I know what you believe and I know that it's complete nonsense. By "nonsense", I'm not saying I can't understand what you believe, I'm saying that it does not line up at all with what scripture teaches. And there is no one else I've ever seen who believes some of the things that you do. But, you are somehow more special than anyone else and God has revealed the truth of those things only to you. Okay then. If you want to be that much of a narcissist, then that's your choice.

 

[Timtofly]

All of us watch for Jesus.
The danger in preaching a pretribulation is that a new convert may be unprepared when eventually faced with great tribulation.
We should preach that tribulations will come our way, as Scripture states, even to the point of being killed for the faith like the Apostles and many others.
Cannot imagine them teaching a pretrib when they themselves lost their lives. That doesn't make any sense does it.

Then stop calling it great tribulation, but Jacob's trouble.

 

[Timtofly]

Back up a verse for the answer.

24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

So you adhere to different types of death, but cannot figure out that those in heaven are not dead in any sense of the word?

 

[Timtofly]

No, his crusade and my crusade and those who believe like we do are against the pretrib doctrine. It's nothing personal against pretribbers themselves. Big difference. We believe strongly in God's word and in the truth and we defend it against false teaching. Is that wrong? Is that not also what you're trying to do from your own perspective?

By personally attacking them? How thoughtful.

I am glad that you are so impersonal when you constantly lie and bad mouth other posters.

Then high five each other on your keen post.

We would not want you to feel bad about yourselves.