The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[Timtofly]

In a sense, I suppose, but they were never referred to as such in scripture.

So are the 24 elders firstfruits from the first century or not? Make up your mind.

Each in their own order: Christ, the firstfruits.

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits."

Who are firstfruits at the Cross, other than 12 elders from the OT and 12 from the NT? Those 24 elders if they are firstfruits have been there since the first century, no?

The 144k are sealed at the Second Coming, not people thousands of years ago. They are the Second Coming firstfruits. You, the church are the lastfruits, if you take WPM seriously.

 

[MA2444]

Oh no... there's new babes here stuck on man's false pre-trib rapture that one needs to be very specific with when covering what The Bible actually shows as written.

That must be me that you're talking about. But I'm not being edified by any of you posttribbers.

I read the stuff that the postribbers write and understand exactly what they mean, because I was a postribber for a long time and used to think the same on some of the same things. Not all of the views lol, but I'm well aquainted with the view.

I have tried to counter some of those posts with my new understanding of pretrib, and when I do...I dont get reasonable responses. I get attacked and in a weird way that's sort of funny because it makes them look petty and obtuse.

I forget who said it and it really doesnt matter, but it was said that, oh I'm relying on info to answer a question that was from my notes from a pastor's teaching...like I'm supposed to know everything off the top of my head?! Like I never read it for myself? That's bunk and it makes me wonder...

Are pretribbers more Christ like than post tribbers?
Are posttribbers more Christ like than pretribbers?

One read through this thread answers that question! Why would they get angry at someone who hold a different than they do? So of their posts are over the top. This isnt even a Salvific issue!

I'm not saying that I'm perfect like that, they have provoked my old man a couple times with the snideness and vile remarks they say. I'm not immune, just a man. It's weird that some are never amicable. One guy tried to be and we actually had a pretty decent conversation...but I guess he's having a bad day today.

1 Corinthian 13:2
2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing.../NLT

 

[WPM]

That must be me that you're talking about. But I'm not being edified by any of you posttribbers.

I read the stuff that the postribbers write and understand exactly what they mean, because I was a postribber for a long time and used to think the same on some of the same things. Not all of the views lol, but I'm well aquainted with the view.

I have tried to counter some of those posts with my new understanding of pretrib, and when I do...I dont get reasonable responses. I get attacked and in a weird way that's sort of funny because it makes them look petty and obtuse.

I forget who said it and it really doesnt matter, but it was said that, oh I'm relying on info to answer a question that was from my notes from a pastor's teaching...like I'm supposed to know everything off the top of my head?! Like I never read it for myself? That's bunk and it makes me wonder...

Are pretribbers more Christ like than post tribbers?
Are posttribbers more Christ like than pretribbers?

One read through this thread answers that question! Why would they get angry at someone who hold a different than they do? So of their posts are over the top. This isnt even a Salvific issue!

I'm not saying that I'm perfect like that, they have provoked my old man a couple times with the snideness and vile remarks they say. I'm not immune, just a man. It's weird that some are never amicable. One guy tried to be and we actually had a pretty decent conversation...but I guess he's having a bad day today.

1 Corinthian 13:2
2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing.../NLT

So, you moved from a position that is supported by multiple Scripture to one that is supported by zero Scripture? How smart! How wise! How commendable! Not! It is hard to take your Posttrib claim seriously, especially when one sees how ignorant you are of the basics of Posttrib. It sounds like Pretrib politicking to me.

People would take you more serious if you (1) presented an actual proof text that teaches a rapture of the Church, immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, immediately followed by a further coming of Christ, (2) if you didn't avoid the scriptural rebuttals presented and (3) you desisted from constant ad hominem.

If you have the ability to go there we can reset. If not, then it is pointless pursuing anything with you.

 

[MA2444]

If you have the ability to go there we can reset. If not, then it is pointless pursuing anything with you.

Reset? You mean me. Sorry pal. I don't wat to start talking to you again simply because you have no heart. Or you dont know how to talk or something. Maybe you're just used to speaking to a congregation where no one ever disagrees then they clap at the end? That aint me and this aint that medium. These forums are interactive. So I speak.

I happen to disagree with you, but that just sets you off. And you just dont speak my language, cant speak diplomat, and sound like you have not one humble bone in your body. So out of the abundance of our heart, the mouth will speak and you speaking to me like you do it makes me fell like, even if I decided that I was wrong and it was posttrib and I had a question? I wouldnt come to you. Because you dont even try to be amicable.

So it is pointless for you talk to me! I agree. You've lost my respect if any existed. Let's drop it ok? I agree to disagree with you and not talk to you.

Now you owe me a dollar for psychological help. Your welcome. Give it to someone poorer than me that needs it. If you had a heart, you'd make it 20 because 5 bucks aint even enough for lunch anymore.

 

[Timtofly]

Their souls are in heaven. But, you don't believe people have souls, so you will just never understand.

Do you like lying?

No, you don't have a soul. Are you the physical body, or the soul that goes to heaven?

Paul says you, the soul puts on a physical body, and the physical body puts on the robe of white, the spirit.

The soul does not have a spirit living in the soul. The body does not have a spirit living inside. Unless you think the Holy Spirit literally has a house in billions of physical bodies? The Holy Spirit works in you when you submit to the Holy Spirit in obedience to God.

There are no naked souls in heaven, as that is symbolism, not literal. All in heaven enjoying physical Paradise have a physical body. They have served God in that heavenly temple day and night for almost 2 millennia.

 

[Timtofly]

So, therefore, what you are saying is that you think people have to believe in a pre-trib rapture to be part of the church! Are you kidding me? That is complete nonsense! Please think about this.

So post trib does not have to be right either. Do only those who hold a post trib rapture belong to the church? Why are you so adamant that pre-trib be found in Scripture?

You want an explanation of the 144k? They are sealed on the earth in Revelation 7, at the same time those without number are already in heaven. Do you think Revelation 7 is split between the first century and the second coming?

Can you prove that or is that just your opinion?

 

[MA2444]

No, you don't have a soul. Are you the physical body, or the soul that goes to heaven?

Paul says you, the soul puts on a physical body, and the physical body puts on the robe of white, the spirit.

The soul does not have a spirit living in the soul. The body does not have a spirit living inside.

That isnt the way I learned it.

I am a spirit. I have a soul. I live in a flesh body.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord.../KJV

Not only that but the spirit and soul are locked together and cannot be seperated.

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.../KJV

 

[Timtofly]

As I had said, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Post-mill means AFTER... the future Millennium. The future Millennium is the Rev.20 "thousand years" reign by Christ and His gathered elect Church. Jesus returns on the LAST DAY of THIS PRESENT WORLD, PRIOR TO THE MILLENNIUM. That's what I... believe, because that is what is written in God's Word.

Thus what you are claiming that I believe is a LIE, and YOU WELL KNOW IT because obviously you have a hard time understanding what people say.

So the millennium is not part of this present world? What world is the millennium a part of?

You say the LAST DAY.

Most think you are saying last day, are there days in the millennium after this "last day"?

 

[WPM]

Reset? You mean me. Sorry pal. I don't wat to start talking to you again simply because you have no heart. Or you dont know how to talk or something. Maybe you're just used to speaking to a congregation where no one ever disagrees then they clap at the end? That aint me and this aint that medium. These forums are interactive. So I speak.

I happen to disagree with you, but that just sets you off. And you just dont speak my language, cant speak diplomat, and sound like you have not one humble bone in your body. So out of the abundance of our heart, the mouth will speak and you speaking to me like you do it makes me fell like, even if I decided that I was wrong and it was posttrib and I had a question? I wouldnt come to you. Because you dont even try to be amicable.

So it is pointless for you talk to me! I agree. You've lost my respect if any existed. Let's drop it ok? I agree to disagree with you and not talk to you.

Now you owe me a dollar for psychological help. Your welcome. Give it to someone poorer than me that needs it. If you had a heart, you'd make it 20 because 5 bucks aint even enough for lunch anymore.

Yaa-dee-daa-dee-daa!!!

What Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

 

[Timtofly]

No.
We are all seated in the heavenly realms as saved souls right now, whether your living or dead.
His second coming clothes all saved souls with a glorified body, like his glorious body.


Phill 3
20 But [we are different, because] our citizenship is in heaven. And from there we eagerly await [the coming of] the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself, will [not only] transform [but completely refashion] our earthly bodies so that they will be like His glorious resurrected body.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are [even here and] now children of God, and it is not yet made clear what we will be [after His coming]. We know that when He comes and is revealed, we will [as His children] be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is [in all His glory].

Heb 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels [in festive gathering], 23 and to the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn who are registered [as citizens] in heaven, and to God, who is Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous (the redeemed in heaven) who have been made perfect [bringing them to their final glory], 24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant [uniting God and man], and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks [of mercy], a better and nobler and more gracious message than the blood of Abel [which cried out for vengeance].

Seated in heaven as a soul is not literal, but that does not mean you are two places at the same time. So you probably should post the verse not draw a wrong conclusion.

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

The state before the second birth, which then changes to:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )"

This is the change of status from a condemned soul to a redeemed soul, but the next verse is the physical change. This is only after physical death:

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

That is the current state of all humans currently in Paradise. This has nothing to do with you on earth. This is them serving God in that temple day and night as well. They never tasted death but went from a body of death to a body of life, still the soul in a permanent incorruptible physical body. Strange you all want "rise first" in 1 Thessalonians 4 to be a resurrection, but not here when we are raised up together in Christ?

"That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

So Paul said they are already enjoying the first resurrection, physically seated with Christ, serving God showing the grace that changes us from dead to life for all ages to come.

I keep saying that we will not get this body back nor will it be changed. When Paul says we will all be changed, it is not the body itself changing, but the soul changing bodies, like a body, changing clothes. That is how Paul related it in several passages. The soul takes off the body at physical death. In the same instant the soul puts on a permanent incorruptible physical body from God that is eternal life. The soul is who you are already eternal, since conception. It is your body that returns to dust, not the soul. The soul is dissolved of the union with death and the point of redemption is putting on God's physical body. That is why those on earth do not yet appear like Christ. They cannot until they enter heaven. But those alive on earth will be changed on earth if the Second Coming happens prior to physical death, and meet those in the air who have already been enjoying life for hundreds of years. They are enjoying life, because they have been raised up together with Christ physically. They have experienced the first resurrection.

 

[jeffweeder]

The soul takes off the body at physical death. In the same instant the soul puts on a permanent incorruptible physical body from God that is eternal life. The soul is who you are already eternal, since conception. It is your body that returns to dust, not the soul. The soul is dissolved of the union with death and the point of redemption is putting on God's physical body. That is why those on earth do not yet appear like Christ. They cannot until they enter heaven. But those alive on earth will be changed on earth if the Second Coming happens prior to physical death, and meet those in the air who have already been enjoying life for hundreds of years. They are enjoying life, because they have been raised up together with Christ physically. They have experienced the first resurrection.

The dead in Christ rise first once Jesus descends from heaven at his second coming. What would be the point of that if they already have their physical body?

Romans 8:23
And not only this, but we too, who have the first fruits of the Spirit [a joyful indication of the blessings to come], even we groan inwardly, as we wait eagerly for [the sign of] our adoption as sons—the redemption and transformation of our body [at the resurrection].


Did Jesus get his body back after it was dead?



26 Eight days later His disciples were again inside the house, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though the doors had been barred, and stood among them and said, “Peace to you.” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and put out your hand and place it in My side. Do not be unbelieving, but [stop doubting and] believe.” 28 Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, do you now believe? Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, and favored by God] are they who did not see [Me] and yet believed [in Me].”


36 While they were talking about this, Jesus Himself [suddenly] stood among them and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were startled and terrified and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said, “Why are you troubled, and why are doubts rising in your hearts? 39 Look at [the marks in] My hands and My feet, [and see] that it is I Myself. Touch Me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.” 40 After saying this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still did not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave Him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and He took it and ate it in front of them.


That being said it is nice to see you believe that the first resurrection has already taken place before the second coming...all be it a Spiritual one and not a physical one as you propose.

 

[MA2444]

Yaa-dee-daa-dee-daa!!!

What Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

And still, you want to talk to me.

In a different post of yours, you basically told me that if I wont play by your rules, then it is pointless to talk to me. I don't seem to be able to find that post now. I bet you went and edited that post to take that out now. But I read it and you said it.

And you dont set the rules for me. That was a girlish statement by you to make anyway. What should I do now? Oh my gosh he wont talk to me anymore! I better bow down a little to this guy or he wont even speak to me!

No sale. It's pointless for you to talk to me. You have edified no one, and you have a bad attitude. WHy would I come to a guy like you for anything? So I do agree with you on one thing. It's pointless for you to talk to me. Stop talking to me, please, PLEASE!

Or maybe you just want to have the last word with me? That's another girlish trait, lol. Stop it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Like I showed, that Luke 21 example is for the END of this world. The Scripture example you quoted was for the Apostle's days. Got to rightly divide the timelines in Bible Scripture according to God's written Word, not by man's word.

Uh, no, Jesus basically said none of them would be harmed.
But you missed it when you tried to explain it away.
You dont now what was going on there do you?
If I had the time I would also explain that to you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The potential problem with teaching a pre-trib rapture, other than it being a false doctrine, is that it can lead people to think that they don't need to worry about going through persecution and tribulation and such because they think they will either die first or be taken away (raptured) from it before it happens. That can lead to a false sense of security and a lack of preparedness for hardship.

But, as Christians, we should know that we will all go through persecution and tribulation in our lives.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Speaking of false doctrine, did you ever unpack the virgins parable for us?

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are sadly mistaken. Do you understand that it will be the church, the bride of Christ, that will be caught up in the rapture? So, therefore, what you are saying is that you think people have to believe in a pre-trib rapture to be part of the church! Are you kidding me? That is complete nonsense! Please think about this.


Where do you get the idea that only those who believe in a pre-trib rapture are watching and making themselves ready for Christ's return? Part of watching is watching and paying attention to what is going on in your life and in the world. You don't have to believe in pre-trib to do that.

Also, why did you stop at verse 47? If you keep reading, we can see what you are actually implying about those who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture.

Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Look what happens to those who don't watch, which you think are only those who believe in a pre-trib rapture. They end up in the same place as the hypocrites where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Do you understand that is talking about hell or the lake of fire? Which would mean you're saying that those who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture will end up in the lake of fire. Is that really what you believe? Or would you like to give this more thought?

QUOTE
"Where do you get the idea that only those who believe in a pre-trib rapture are watching and making themselves ready for Christ's return? Part of watching is watching and paying attention to what is going on in your life and in the world. You don't have to believe in pre-trib to do that."

Uh, no.
Every single postribber believes the rapture CAN NOT COME TODAY,TOMORROW OR NEXT YEAR.
You guys own the fact that YOU ARE NOT WATCHING, WAITING, AND HAVE NO NEED TO BE READY.
For Who are you earnestly waiting and watching ,and telling us inferior pretribbers to get ready for????
THE ANTICHRIST!!!
( The one you tell us to get ready for...the one, YOU GUYS say, that , us inferior pretribbers are not ready for, and will fall apart if we don't erroneously join you guys in watching for the false christ.)

That is why we shake our heads at what that false doctrine has done to you guys.

That is really comical, that you guys are so adamant about seeking a position that has you unprepared for the groom, then try to be like us ,and say you are watching and waiting alongside us wise virgins.
You will find out how the cow cut the cabbage when you are caught unprepared.

What a bonus for your doctrine.
You will indeed face the AC . And you guys missing the rapture will be a day of dread.
Dread and regret that you explained away the rapture verses and setting.

Pssssst..even the foolish virgins had the sense to watch for a pretrib rapture.

If that does not scare you, then you are willfully in rebellion.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I believe he is. I actually agree with you. But I hate getting into wars w/ my brother. The language is his subject. Theology is more my subject. Thanks.

Yes indeed.
We can disagree and not let it come to any resentment or disrespect.
Rather, let it be "concept vs concept" ...nothing personal

 

[rebuilder 454]

1st, I would agree that Christians are saved from *something!* This doesn't mean Christians will be Raptured away from the earth before a time when Antichrist will persecute Christians. Christians have suffered persecution from pagans throughout history, without any Rapture away from the time of trouble.

Christians are indeed saved *from eternal judgment* that will take place when Christ comes a 2nd time. None of this has anything to do with escape from the earth before Antichrist arrives. We are saved from God's *eternal wrath* in Outer Darkness.

2nd, I would agree that Jesus used the Flood story to compare with his 2nd Coming. The world is going to be judged for its wickednesss en mass. This is like the Flood that massively destroyed the population of mankind on earth. This is comparable.

When I say there is no evidence that the Flood projects the idea of a *Pretribulational deliverance,* I'm talking about the lack of explicit points in Jesus' comparison indicating that Christians will escape the tribulation associated with Antichrist's persecution.

Clearly, the book of Revelation indicates the Antichrist persecutes Christians. So any notion of escape by Rapture of a large group of Christians is simply lacking in the narrative.

You may indeed see pictures of the Church in heaven scattered throughout the narrative of Antichrist's reign in the book of Revelation. But in no place are we told that Christians are depicted as being in heaven due to a Rapture at Christ's Coming. We would have to speculate as such--it is not explicit doctrinal truth.

The time of the Gentiles fulfilled, the bride gathered and Jacob's trouble begins.
The groom comes for his bride...that is the rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Very true. I can't deny that. I need to stop wasting my time with someone like that who is completely unreasonable and only goes by what his teachers tell him without being like the Bereans and studying it for himself. In one response he made to me, he told me he wasn't sure how to answer my questions and had to consult his notes from listening to a sermon by a pre-trib pastor. Why people don't think for themselves about things like this, I'll never know.

Blue ribbon pot<>kettle award.

 

[rebuilder 454]

So, you moved from a position that is supported by multiple Scripture to one that is supported by zero Scripture? How smart! How wise! How commendable! Not! It is hard to take your Posttrib claim seriously, especially when one sees how ignorant you are of the basics of Posttrib. It sounds like Pretrib politicking to me.

People would take you more serious if you (1) presented an actual proof text that teaches a rapture of the Church, immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, immediately followed by a further coming of Christ, (2) if you didn't avoid the scriptural rebuttals presented and (3) you desisted from constant ad hominem.

If you have the ability to go there we can reset. If not, then it is pointless pursuing anything with you.

I have never seen a single postribber unpack the virgins parable ( a vivid pretrib rapture by the groom), nor address " before the flood" setting change of mat 24.
"Like manner" return of Acts one or Jesus sitting on a cloud harvesting main harvest jews.
No postribber has ever unpacked the "0ne taken/left" of mat 24.
Never have seen any of them honestly address the pretrib rapture verses.

So we basically own end times.

 

[Timtofly]

That's obviously a reference to the ones Paul calls "the dead in Christ" in verse 16. You have them rising already before Jesus brings them with Him from heaven even though it says they rise first after He descends from heaven. In verse 16 it's talking about them bodily rising from the dead, not rising in the air to meet Jesus. Their souls come with Jesus from heaven and then unite with their changed, incorruptible bodies when they are resurrected from the dead. You are so incredibly confused.

It is simple. They rise from Paradise first, because Jesus brings them with Him. They don't need a resurrection. They have already passed from death unto life. John 5:24-25.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

They are not dead. They have eternal life. They are simply no longer physically on the earth.

Do you think they fall from Paradise or rise from Paradise? They don't fall out of heaven into the sky. They rise from where they are to come with Jesus. They come from Paradise first, so they rise from Paradise first. They are with Jesus. We cannot rise first, because we have no clue when to actually rise, no? Are we going to have a resurrection as we rise, or does this rise first simply mean they leave Paradise like we leave earth, and does not mean resurrection at all, as you indicate that is what the word can mean. You have just decided against that definition.

Please explain how my bias that they have eternal life already really is worse than your bias they do not have eternal life, but are still bound by death.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

The hour now is meaning starting with Jesus' first advent, many would enjoy the first resurrection with Him, physically. We see that in Matthew 27:52-53

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

How can this not be a resurrection? Because the words "rise first" are not being used? Only verses they say "rise first" mean there is a resurrection?

"And many which slept arose."

That is past tense of sleep. These are the same people Paul is talking about in those verses"

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Paul is not making some doctrine that they died again, or went back to sleep. He was pointing out those already in heaven.

Are we supposed to take this figure of speech, and view it as literal, in direct contradiction to the fact they have passed from death unto life, and are no longer in a state of death?