Psalm 22

[Eliyahu613]

Bs"d

In a 'Christians only' part of the forum where I cannot post, somebody brings Psalm 22 as a proof for JC being the messiah.

That's why I want to explain what's going on there: Psalm 22 Eng

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

In a 'Christians only' part of the forum where I cannot post, somebody brings Psalm 22 as a proof for JC being the messiah.

That's why I want to explain what's going on there: Psalm 22 Eng

Thank you.

***

@PanInVietnam are you able to see that Eliyahu is pitting his Jewish perspective against the New Testament’s Jewish perspective?

From thread to thread and forum to forum, it’s the continuation of the 1st century struggle which took place within Judaism; one sect Judaism against the other sects of Judaism.

 

[PanInVietnam]

i read his post with extreme interest as he is native Hebrew hence what he writes as what is to be understood. non hebrew native has to rely on translation hence we do not get the original meaning.

new testament is written in greek which still puzzles me. i read elsewhere that the Israelite got exiled to Babylon, and somewhere else but the old testament still writes in hebrew and not languages of that place where they are exiled to.

due to total newbie in this religion, i cant comment much but to read and double check the info myself from other google source. i also came across other ancient religions like zoroastrian from Persia.

no hurry for me to do anything now but to read and read for myself...

 

[Deborah_]

new testament is written in greek which still puzzles me. i read elsewhere that the Israelite got exiled to Babylon, and somewhere else but the old testament still writes in hebrew and not languages of that place where they are exiled to.

The New Testament was written in Greek because Greek was the "lingua franca" of that part of the Roman Empire (everyone spoke it, a bit like English today), and the New Testament was written for all nations - not just the Jews. By that time even the Jews no longer spoke Hebrew as a first language, and the Old Testament had been translated into Greek.

 

[JohnDB]

Ummmm,
We Christians don't worry about Psalms 22 being prophesy....it's a message from Jesus to his Followers while being crucified.

The very end of the Psalm is the focus of the message. The first line is just a "call tag" because the numbers in the psalms didn't appear until the 15th century.

But the message is fairly obvious: Things look bleak but just wait until God redeems and restores me.

And as History has clearly demonstrated....Jesus was correct.

Secondly you get all in a twist over the translation of the word "pierced" as if this is proof of "Christian nonsense" or deliberate mistranslation of Hebrew.
Hebrew is not a good language to translate into English to begin with. Hebrew is a metaphoric language with a pictographic and phonetic alphabet. Meaning that there's a ton of translational difficulties. Especially as modern English is a living language. The essence of the Psalms are intact.

And as far as prophesy? God always speaks through poetry and in a poetic manner. Where people (Jews) often argue about rhythm, pronunciation, and etc....the entire Torah is still sung. So are the Psalms.

 

[Eliyahu613]

i read his post with extreme interest as he is native Hebrew hence what he writes as what is to be understood. non hebrew native has to rely on translation hence we do not get the original meaning.

new testament is written in greek which still puzzles me. i read elsewhere that the Israelite got exiled to Babylon, and somewhere else but the old testament still writes in hebrew and not languages of that place where they are exiled to.

due to total newbie in this religion, i cant comment much but to read and double check the info myself from other google source. i also came across other ancient religions like zoroastrian from Persia.

no hurry for me to do anything now but to read and read for myself...

Bs"d

A very good tool for checking out the Hebrew and Greek, even if you cannot read it, is this interlinear:

Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible

Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible

www.scripture4all.org

It has both Greek and Hebrew.

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

A very good tool for checking out the Hebrew and Greek, even if you cannot read it, is this interlinear:

Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible

Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible

www.scripture4all.org

It has both Greek and Hebrew.

That’s an excellent recommendation. Well done. I wish I had thought of it myself.

I would also bring to the attention of @PanInVietnam -

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

There is a Chinese Bible at the website.

 

[Jay Ross]

That’s an excellent recommendation. Well done. I wish I had thought of it myself.

I would also bring to the attention of @PanInVietnam -

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

There is a Chinese Bible at the website.

I would recommend the BibleHub.com website as it also provides commentaries as well and more helpful understanding.

 

[Matthias]

i read his post with extreme interest as he is native Hebrew hence what he writes as what is to be understood. non hebrew native has to rely on translation hence we do not get the original meaning.

The first Christians were native Hebrew. If you follow the logic of your comment it will lead you to the conclusion that what the New Testament writers (Jews who believe that Jesus of Nazareth, himself a Jew) wrote is what is to be understood, not what an unbelieving Jew says about what they wrote.

no hurry for me to do anything now but to read and read for myself...

Carry on.

 

[PanInVietnam]

Personally, I think Eliyahu's article is well documented from native hebrew perspective. after reading i do not find any complicated language terms or jargon to explain, short sharp and precise. Unlike other articles i read (while researching/studying) from christian perspective, is always complicated way to 'reason' to bring out their point.

supposed 'hebrew native' matthew will not cite from the old testament to proclaim the virgin birth, since he would know in his native language there is no virgin mentioned. i cant help but to think if he intentionally wants to create confusion or indirectly telling the reader that he isnt hebrew native to begin with?

none nevertheless, is really interesting to read the exchange and googled more on this topic... (been busy lately.. slowly but surely..)

 

[Matthias]

Personally, I think Eliyahu's article is well documented from native hebrew perspective. after reading i do not find any complicated language terms or jargon to explain, short sharp and precise. Unlike other articles i read (while researching/studying) from christian perspective, is always complicated way to 'reason' to bring out their point.

supposed 'hebrew native' matthew will not cite from the old testament to proclaim the virgin birth, since he would know in his native language there is no virgin mentioned. i cant help but to think if he intentionally wants to create confusion or indirectly telling the reader that he isnt hebrew native to begin with?

none nevertheless, is really interesting to read the exchange and googled more on this topic... (been busy lately.. slowly but surely..)

Matthew quoted Isaiah 7:14 in Matthew 1:23.

 

[Eliyahu613]

Matthew quoted Isaiah 7:14 in Matthew 1:23.

Bs"d

And in that quote he mistranslated it.

Here is what is going on in Isaiah 7: Isaiah 7

 

[Matthias]

Bs"d

And in that quote he mistranslated it.

Here is what is going on in Isaiah 7: Isaiah 7

He didn’t mistranslate. He quoted the LXX.

Matthew 1:23 Interlinear: Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,' which is, being interpreted 'With us he is God.'

biblehub.com

 

[PanInVietnam]

logically, original language is the key, other translated has no value. (been missing for a long time due to folks visiting for 3 weeks and been traveling too)

 

[Matthias]

logically, original language is the key, other translated has no value. (been missing for a long time due to folks visiting for 3 weeks and been traveling too)

Welcome back.

Matthew didn’t translate the Hebrew. Matthew didn’t translate the Greek. He quoted the Greek translation that was prepared by Jewish scholars who lived long before Jesus was born. See the link.

1 And it came to pass in the days of Achaz [the son] of Joatham, the son of Ozi... ISAIAH / ΗΣΑΪΑΣ7 - Bilingual Septuagint

www.ellopos.net

@Eliyahu613 is greatly mistaken about Matthew.

 

[PanInVietnam]

i personally think you missed his point.

 

[Matthias]

i personally think you missed his point.

He has no point. He misled his readers with a blatantly false statement about Matthew.

The Jews who translated the Hebrew to Greek weren’t connected in any way with primitive Christianity. They weren’t followers of Jesus. They all died hundreds of years before Christianity arose as a sect within Judaism.

@Eliyahu613 didn’t even inform his readers what the Greek word used by the Jewish (not Christian) translators is, nor what it means.

P.S.

A Brief History of the Septuagint

Joomla! - the dynamic portal engine and content management system

biblearchaeology.org

His assertion is undermined by 72 of his own highly skilled ancient scholars / translators, roughly 250 years before Jesus was born.

 

[PanInVietnam]

the point is in the original text says "young" and not "virgin", thats the main point. translation doesnt matter anymore.

some newer translation even accepted the original text and leave a commentary to reflect this: GNT, RSV to name a few.

Isaiah 7:14 NET
[14] For this reason the sovereign master himself will give you a confirming sign. Look, this young woman is about to conceive and will give birth to a son. You, young woman, will name him Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 For this reason the sovereign master himself will give you a confirming sign. Look, this young woman is about to conceive and will give birth to a son. You, young woman, will name him Immanuel. | New English Translation (NET) | Download The Bible App Now

Isaiah 7:14 RSV
[14] Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el. | Revised Standard Version (RSV) | Download The Bible App Now

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el.

bible.com

Isaiah 7:14 GNT
[14] Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel.’

Isaiah 7:14 Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel.’ | Good News Translation (GNT) | Download The Bible App Now

Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel.’

bible.com

Ê-sai 7:14 BPT
[14] Chính CHÚA sẽ ban cho ngươi một dấu hiệu: Một thiếu nữ sẽ mang thai và sinh ra một bé trai và đặt tên là Em-ma-nu-ên. Ê-sai 7:14 Chính CHÚA sẽ ban cho ngươi một dấu hiệu: Một thiếu nữ sẽ mang thai và sinh ra một bé trai và đặt tên là Em-ma-nu-ên. | Thánh Kinh: Bản Phổ thông (BPT) | Download The Bible App Now

Even the Vietnamese version is also updated.

 

[Matthias]

the point is in the original text says "young" and not "virgin", thats the main point. translation doesnt matter anymore.

@Eliyahu613 own people - Jews, not Christians - wrote that the original text meaning is virgin.

The LXX is a Jewish document, not a Christian document.

Matthew didn’t translate it. Matthew didn’t interpret it. Matthew quoted the Jewish scripture.

The young Jewish woman who conceived was a virgin.

some newer translation even accepted the original text and leave a commentary to reflect this: GNT, RSV to name a few.

Isaiah 7:14 NET
[14] For this reason the sovereign master himself will give you a confirming sign. Look, this young woman is about to conceive and will give birth to a son. You, young woman, will name him Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 For this reason the sovereign master himself will give you a confirming sign. Look, this young woman is about to conceive and will give birth to a son. You, young woman, will name him Immanuel. | New English Translation (NET) | Download The Bible App Now

Isaiah 7:14 RSV
[14] Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el. | Revised Standard Version (RSV) | Download The Bible App Now

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el.

bible.com

Isaiah 7:14 GNT
[14] Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel.’

Isaiah 7:14 Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel.’ | Good News Translation (GNT) | Download The Bible App Now

Well then, the Lord himself will give you a sign: a young woman who is pregnant will have a son and will name him ‘Immanuel.’

bible.com

Ê-sai 7:14 BPT
[14] Chính CHÚA sẽ ban cho ngươi một dấu hiệu: Một thiếu nữ sẽ mang thai và sinh ra một bé trai và đặt tên là Em-ma-nu-ên. Ê-sai 7:14 Chính CHÚA sẽ ban cho ngươi một dấu hiệu: Một thiếu nữ sẽ mang thai và sinh ra một bé trai và đặt tên là Em-ma-nu-ên. | Thánh Kinh: Bản Phổ thông (BPT) | Download The Bible App Now

Even the Vietnamese version is also updated.

 

[PanInVietnam]

that brings the point that is Matthew even jewish to begin with? a jewish cant read whether is young or virgin is really suspicious of this Matthew character... logical thinking...

newer Christian side of those translation is honest and not repeating the mistake from bad source is commendable