I am not clear....are you saying there was no church at all until Pentecost?
1ST PETER WAS WRITTEN TO ISRAEL
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[Rev 5:9-10 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The verse says OUT OF people and nations
Only believing Israel is called priests
[Exo 19:6 KJV] 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
[1Pe 2:5 KJV] 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Chris.
Exodus 19 above is addressed to the children of Israel
1 Peter is written to Israel which is verified by his calling them a holy priesthood
Nowhere does Paul call us priests
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes they were the people of god, but Paul specifically defined what it takes to be part of the church of Jesus. That is spirit baptism and that did not happen until Pentecost.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well it wasn't Jesus' church because He said He would build His church-future, not keep building or continue building.
If you wish to use church generically that is fine. but if you wish it to mean THE Church which is comprised of followers of jesus then the bible does not support that concept.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
will build is future active indicative.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Correct!
The church as we know it is also called the body of Christ. There were no Christians prior to the birth of the church. There were the OT saints who were saved but to be a Christian one has to trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus for their sins. There was not that knowledge in the OT.
Paul also makes clear in 1 Corinthians that entrance into the body of Christ (the church) is by Spirit Baptism and that did not occur until Pentecost in Acts 2.
This does not mean people were not saved from Adam until Pentecost, for they were. It just means they are not part of the bride of Christ, the body of Christ or the church as it is also known.
[Jdg 6:34 KJV] 34 But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him.
The Spirit was given to Gideon
ok I get it
Yes the church before Christ's earthly ministry was composed of those who believed in the Lord.......they were old testaments saints
[Gen 15:6 KJV] 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
thanks for getting this verse
I think he was still building his church during his earthly ministry
There would be a church that believed in Christ on the basis of his appearing unto them
This church could not be the body of Christ however since that was not yet revealed,,,,,it was revealed to Paul later.....it was the church that believed he was the Christ the Son of God
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
REread the passage- and look closely at the word "upon". That does not mean in. Noone until Pentecost had the Spirit indwell them. Many had the spirit on dwell but no indwell. That is why David prayed in Psalm 51 for the Lord to not take away His spirit. For a believer the spirit cannot be taken away, but for the OT saints, it could for it only on dwelt.
So do you believe there were two churches of God existing at the same time?
Well your thinking changed the words Jesus said and altered the meaning of what He said.
And what was this OT church called? It was not the body of Christ nor the espoused to Jesus. so what was it called? We know Israel was Yahweh's wife until God divorced her ( to remarry her again the future).
but other than that one passage in Hebrews, the OT believers are never call ed a church or the church. They were called Gods wife (whhile the NT church we are still just the espoused to Jesus), they are called the son of God, they are called by god "my people", but never do we see them called the church.
Yes you are right
I was only showing that the Spirit did operate before Pentecost
Paul did speak of being baptized into Christ by the Spirit but that could not be the same Spirit baptism since that was before Paul's dispensation
Yes
The remnant church of Christ and the twelve was in decline and Paul's ministry was increasing
Paul had fellow laborers from the remnant church ...................[Rom 16:7 KJV] 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
Peter and Paul met together..................................[Gal 1:17-19 KJV] 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother..
Paul never preached where Peter did......................[Rom 15:20 KJV] 20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:
[Mat 16:18-19 KJV] 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
I didnt fully explain that Christ was still building his church during his earthly ministry in which he was saving and preparing his disciples to operate in the kingdom on earth,,,,....in verse 19 above Christ is talking about giving Peter the keys of the prophetic Davidic earthly kingdom
I can only remember them being called saints...................[Psa 30:4 KJV] 4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well OT people were not baptized intro the Spirit. And Paul received the same Baptism as the 120 in the upper room at Pentecost. He was a member of the same church and body as Peter and James and John etc.
That is because they are saints, just nor members of the body of Christ aka teh church.
Not quite. What do keys do? they open doors. If you look through Acts you will see that it was Peter who introduced the gospel to Israel, then to the Samaritans and finally to the gentiles.
He wasn't still building. If He was doing that He woulld have said so and does not need us to correct His words.
