No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

[GracePeace]

Are you referring to the "doubt" of James 1? That he / she should not expect anything form the Lord?
F2F

Romans 14:23 was cited.

 

[GracePeace]

You use these two verses together and they are not referring to the same thing.

Romans 8:1 is referring to Christians who are walking in the spirit.
Romans 14:23 is referring to those who are not walking in the spirit.

Romans 8:1 cannot become Romans 14:23 by sinning or eating food or having lunch with his brother. The two verses have nothing to do with each other.

1. OK So you admit that some valid, real, "true believer", Christians can walk not after the spirit, but after the flesh (Ro 8:12,13), correct?
2. How is it that they have nothing to do with one another? The one is a rule that Christians do only the things they are fully convinced in their own minds are correct, and the other defines as "sin" the breaking of that rule.

 

[face2face]

I cited Romans 14:23.

Yes, I know

23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
Ro 14:23.

cmp

. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind Jas 1:5–6.
. 7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord Jas 1:6–7.

F2F

 

[GracePeace]

Yes, I know

23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
Ro 14:23.

cmp

. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind Jas 1:5–6.
. 7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord Jas 1:6–7.

F2F

Interestingly, Romans 14:23 says the one who does not walk in faith is "condemned", and James 2 says that we are "justified" if we, instead, walk in faith. The Bible would make sense if people would just read it and ask God for understanding.

 

[face2face]

Interestingly, Romans 14:23 says the one who does not walk in faith is "condemned",

Which is correct.

and James 2 says that we are "justified" if we, instead, walk in faith.

Correct.

The Bible would make sense if people would just read it and ask God for understanding.

Yes, as James teaches - read, learn and seek wisdom and God will grant it abundantly.

Unfortunately there is a element in the forum who believe in universal salvation for all people which makes a mockery of both these verses.

Thanks
F2F

 

[GracePeace]

Which is correct.

Correct.

Yes, as James teaches - read, learn and seek wisdom and God will grant it abundantly.

Unfortunately there is a element in the forum who believe in universal salvation for all people which makes a mockery of both these verses.

Thanks
F2F

The issue is that, as the same James warns, "God opposes the proud", and, speaking for myself, obviously, there are often mixed intentions--on one hand, I understand it is my responsibility to understand the Gospel, but, on the other hand, I want to congratulate myself on my ability to understand, so God hides things from me, so that I won't, after He is the One Who tells me, congratulate myself as if I'm great, instead of glorifying God. Am I conversing for God's glory? To a degree, yes, but, also, since I don't understand it all, I'm trying to figure things out. I have fear that I will be deluded, like everyone else, yet, I also have that propensity for boasting, so things are hidden from me. I don't like it, but it's true.

Judges 7
2Then the LORD said to Gideon, “You have too many people for Me to deliver Midian into their hands, lest Israel glorify themselves over Me, saying, ‘My own hand has saved me.’ 3Now, therefore, proclaim in the hearing of the people: ‘Whoever is fearful and trembling may turn back and leave Mount Gilead.’ ”

Deuteronomy 32
26I would have said that I would cut them to pieces
and blot out their memory from mankind,
27if I had not dreaded the taunt of the enemy,
lest their adversaries misunderstand and say:
‘Our own hand has prevailed;
it was not the LORD who did all this.’ ”

 

[GracePeace]

Unfortunately there is a element in the forum who believe in universal salvation for all people which makes a mockery of both these verses.

LOL My main "pet peeve" is the contingent on the forum that denies Christians ever sin, ever fail to abide in Christ, or could ever lose salvation--but I know they also know God, because of other Scriptural truths which they affirm. God is merciful and kind, and does not wait for us to have perfect doctrine before revealing Himself to us.

 

[GracePeace]

Yes, as James teaches - read, learn and seek wisdom and God will grant it abundantly.

The issue is that, as the same James warns, "God opposes the proud", and, speaking for myself, obviously, there are often mixed intentions--on one hand, I understand it is my responsibility to understand the Gospel, but, on the other hand, I want to congratulate myself on my ability to understand, so God hides things from me, so that I won't, after He is the One Who tells me, congratulate myself as if I'm great, instead of glorifying God. Am I conversing for God's glory? To a degree, yes, but, also, since I don't understand it all, I'm trying to figure things out. I have fear that I will be deluded, like everyone else, yet, I also have that propensity for boasting, so things are hidden from me. I don't like it, but it's true.

Judges 7
2Then the LORD said to Gideon, “You have too many people for Me to deliver Midian into their hands, lest Israel glorify themselves over Me, saying, ‘My own hand has saved me.’ 3Now, therefore, proclaim in the hearing of the people: ‘Whoever is fearful and trembling may turn back and leave Mount Gilead.’ ”

Deuteronomy 32
26I would have said that I would cut them to pieces
and blot out their memory from mankind,
27if I had not dreaded the taunt of the enemy,
lest their adversaries misunderstand and say:
‘Our own hand has prevailed;
it was not the LORD who did all this.’ ”

However, when I try to focus on "glorifying God", I'll hear "pardoned", or I'll see the Cross, or Christ on the Cross, and it's puzzling to me. This makes it seem as though that event is not being regarded enough by me. I honestly don't know how to regard it more than I do. I've tried. I don't know how.

Maybe because my stepather was a Muslim terrorist who forced us into Islam, and was pretty severe with us, I just don't get how to reconcile Christ having saved us together with the reality that we are only justified if we obey/walk in faith (which are counted as God's works, or righteousness (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23), not our own works, which pertain to our own righteousness, so I can't argue that I'm saving myself if I obey). Am I not threatened? If not, why would I obey? If I'm threatened, I can't see serving completely out of love. I don't get it. Then I'm told constantly that Jesus died for me.

 

[face2face]

The issue is that, as the same James warns, "God opposes the proud", and, speaking for myself, obviously, there are often mixed intentions--on one hand, I understand it is my responsibility to understand the Gospel, but, on the other hand, I want to congratulate myself on my ability to understand, so God hides things from me, so that I won't, after He is the One Who tells me, congratulate myself as if I'm great, instead of glorifying God. Am I conversing for God's glory? To a degree, yes, but, also, since I don't understand it all, I'm trying to figure things out. I have fear that I will be deluded, like everyone else, yet, I also have that propensity for boasting, so things are hidden from me. I don't like it, but it's true.

Judges 7
2Then the LORD said to Gideon, “You have too many people for Me to deliver Midian into their hands, lest Israel glorify themselves over Me, saying, ‘My own hand has saved me.’ 3Now, therefore, proclaim in the hearing of the people: ‘Whoever is fearful and trembling may turn back and leave Mount Gilead.’ ”

Deuteronomy 32
26I would have said that I would cut them to pieces
and blot out their memory from mankind,
27if I had not dreaded the taunt of the enemy,
lest their adversaries misunderstand and say:
‘Our own hand has prevailed;
it was not the LORD who did all this.’ ”

Humility is essential for learning God's Wisdom. Once you are shown some of His Secrets you develop an apatite for more. The struggle I have is whether I should share them in such an open forum. I wrestle with this often.

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Amen

 

[face2face]

However, when I try to focus on "glorifying God", I'll hear "pardoned", or I'll see the Cross, or Christ on the Cross, and it's puzzling to me. This makes it seem as though that event is not being regarded enough by me. I honestly don't know how to regard it more than I do. I've tried. I don't know how.

So correct if I am wrong, but you struggle with the idea of being pardoned considering the cost of your salvation in Christ, as something you don't feel worthy of?

 

[face2face]

LOL My main "pet peeve" is the contingent on the forum that denies Christians ever sin, ever fail to abide in Christ, or could ever lose salvation--but I know they also know God, because of other Scriptural truths which they affirm. God is merciful and kind, and does not wait for us to have perfect doctrine before revealing Himself to us.

I've come to accept there are those who will be self deluded and deceived and no amount of showing them God's Word will change that.

 

[GracePeace]

So correct if I am wrong, but you struggle with the idea of being pardoned considering the cost of your salvation in Christ, as something you don't feel worthy of?

No, I'm confused about what role Christ's sacrifice plays, because, apparently, what determines my justification on that Day is my obedience after the fact, not Christ's sacrifice.

 

[Peterlag]

1. OK So you admit that some valid, real, "true believer", Christians can walk not after the spirit, but after the flesh (Ro 8:12,13), correct?
2. How is it that they have nothing to do with one another? The one is a rule that Christians do only the things they are fully convinced in their own minds are correct, and the other defines as "sin" the breaking of that rule.

We are on two completely different dimensions. The two different guys in the following statement are both walking by their flesh. One guy thinks he's correct and the other thinks he's breaking a rule.

The one is a rule that Christians do only the things they are fully convinced in their own minds are correct, and the other defines as "sin" the breaking of that rule.

Walking by the spirit does not involve the human. It's the spirit that is a life form that is separate from the person. It's the spirit of Christ. It's not the spirit of man.

 

[GracePeace]

So correct if I am wrong, but you struggle with the idea of being pardoned considering the cost of your salvation in Christ, as something you don't feel worthy of?

The only time I accept that Christ alone saves is when I get spiritual satanic visitations. I forego any reasoning, and just stick with that, and they go away.

 

[GracePeace]

We are on two completely different dimensions. The two different guys in the following statement are both walking by their flesh. One guy thinks he's correct and the other thinks he's breaking a rule.

The one is a rule that Christians do only the things they are fully convinced in their own minds are correct, and the other defines as "sin" the breaking of that rule.

Walking by the spirit does not involve the human. It's the spirit that is a life form that is separate from the person. It's the spirit of Christ. It's not the spirit of man.

So, you would say that if someone walks by the rule "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind", he's walking after the flesh, and "will die" (Ro 8:12,13), but he thinks he's correct, and the guy who breaks the rule is in the same boat, but he thinks he did wrong?

Why is it the case that, in your mind, Paul would be causing Christians to walk after the flesh (by laying that rule down for Christians)?

 

[GracePeace]

Humility is essential for learning God's Wisdom. Once you are shown some of His Secrets you develop an apatite for more. The struggle I have is whether I should share them in such an open forum. I wrestle with this often.

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Amen

I struggle with it, as well, but I've seen many theologians put it all out there, plus I've seen others get to share when I don't share, so I figure I might as well share.

 

[Peterlag]

So, you would say that if someone walks by the rule "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind", he's walking after the flesh, and "will die" (Ro 8:12,13), but he thinks he's correct, and the guy who breaks the rule is in the same boat, but he thinks he did wrong?

Why is it the case that, in your mind, Paul would be causing Christians to walk after the flesh (by laying that rule down for Christians)?

You opened this up with Romans 8:1 that deals with walking in the spirit. This spirit is indeed a life form that has nothing to do with the man. When I am close to the spirit of Christ, then I will function as a partner with the Lord whereby it becomes a joint effort. The reason I cannot lust in the flesh when following after the spirit is because it's impossible to do so since the spirit of Christ does not lust after the flesh. The spirit does not sin and it does not fall out of itself. Now you can stop walking by the spirit and therefore go back to walking in your old dead nature self if you want to. But you can't leave the spirit by sinning in it because the spirit of Christ does not sin.

 

[GracePeace]

You opened this up with Romans 8:1 that deals with walking in the spirit. This spirit is indeed a life form that has nothing to do with the man. When I am close to the spirit of Christ, then I will function as a partner with the Lord whereby it becomes a joint effort. The reason I cannot lust in the flesh when following after the spirit is because it's impossible to do so since the spirit of Christ does not lust after the flesh. The spirit does not sin and it does not fall out of itself. Now you can stop walking by the spirit and therefore go back to walking in your old dead nature self if you want to. But you can't leave the spirit by sinning in it because the spirit of Christ does not sin.

OK So, by your logic, there is no objection to reconciling Ro 8:1 and 14:23 by saying people can go back to walking after their "old dead nature self", which I would define as not remaining in Christ, where there is no condemnation, which is also doing things you don't really believe in, but things you doubt are correct.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, I'm confused about what role Christ's sacrifice plays, because, apparently, what determines my justification on that Day is my obedience after the fact, not Christ's sacrifice.

if your justification is determined by your obedience You will lose.

God makes it clear what his standard is, it is perfection.

There is only one who will stand upright on judgment day and that is the man Jesus himself.

The rest of us will stand on his work (by grace through faith)

or they will stand on their works, and in the end be condemned because they failed to believe

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The only time I accept that Christ alone saves is when I get spiritual satanic visitations. I forego any reasoning, and just stick with that, and they go away.

Sad thing is, Those visions are probably God..