OK I believe our salvation was typed by that of the Jews from Egypt according to 1 Corinthians 10.
No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?
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Yup.
Nope, with the doctrine that our salvation was typed by the salvation of the Jews, and that Paul says we should not incur God's wrath on ourselves, from which we had been saved, by sinning as they sinned.
I'm not speaking about the method of righteousness (Law or Grace), but merely pointing out that Paul thought Christians could sin (or else he wouldn't have warned them not to do those things).
Oh wait a cotton picking minute here. You're the one who said...
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
And I'm saying that is a gazillion percent correct. But the key that I think everyone is missing is it's done "in Christ" who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I said there is a superficial contradiction between Ro 8:1 and 14:23 (the title of the thread)--resolved by observing that not all remain "in Christ", because that is by obeying His commands to i) believe, and ii) walk in love/faith (Jn 15; 1 Jn 3:23,24).
THAT'S IT!!! That's where we disagree. I do not believe walking in the spirit means obeying His commands.
1 John 3
23This is His commandment, that we [h]believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24The one who keeps His commandments remains in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He remains in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John 2
3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
John 15
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."
I do not keep his commandments to know him. Because I know him is why I keep his commandments.
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
One of His commands is to believe.
1 John 3
23This is His commandment, that we [h]believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ...
You do not think knowing Christ is contingent upon believing?
You said you were a "Galatians" man: By failing to believe in the Name of God's Son (inasmuch as they had believed "another Gospel", they were in unbelief regarding Christ), the Galatians were "deserting God", and were "cut off from Christ" (Gal 1:6, 5:4).
This is why he warns
2 Corinthians 13
5Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Can’t you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you—unless you actually fail the test?
Paul said that he was in pains of labor again until Christ was formed in the Galatians--his argumentation was bringing them back to Christ, because knowing Christ is contingent upon faith in the Gospel.
Galatians 4
19My children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,
There is every reason to believe knowing Christ is contingent upon obeying the command to believe in the Name of God's Son.
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Is this the first day of being a Christian?
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1. Please reread the comment you replied to--in it, you will find actual historical/Scriptural examples of people who had been in the faith falling away from the faith (so that it is not an issue of "the first day of being a Christian"), which, again, proves that believing in the Name of God's Son is an ongoing requirement for remaining in Christ/knowing Christ.
2. When you say "this is only the for first day of being a Christian", you're still admitting knowing Christ is contingent upon obeying His command. I think you were just thinking "commands" was defined in a different way (that this term did not encompass "belief").
I am so far above most of this. A minister once told me I was light years ahead of most Christians. I don't think in terms of trying to follow Jesus or to obey commands. I now spend much of my time right inside the spirit as close as I can get right in their face. The Greek word menō translated "abide" often deals with being in him, which I'm very concerned about when it comes to walking in Christ, which I believe is the same as walking in the spirit. To be in him or to abide in him deals with remaining or continuing to be present. To dwell, live, and be within him to the end that we are operative in him by his divine influence and energy.
Irrespectively, "the Scripture cannot be broken", so l'll stick with what has been explained from it.
Thanks for the engagement.
The Scripture does not say we need to obey the commands to walk by the spirit.
So, you agree the Scriptures teach we remain in Him, and Him in us, by keeping God's commands (1 Jn 3:23,24), but you're saying "walk by the spirit" is something else unrelated?
Anyway, you already basically agreed with the point of the thread on reconciling Ro 8:1 and 14:23 when you agreed that not all remain in Christ--as to the means of remaining (ie, by obeying commands), if you want to deny what is plainly stated in Scripture, any honest reader can read the Scriptures posted, and decide whether you've agreed or disagreed with the Scripture.
If you, for what ever reason, refuse to state what Scripture states, I can't change that.
I've stated what Scripture states, you've provided no reason to not believe the Scriptures I've shared other than "I don't abide by obeying commands". Well, which book and chapter and verse is that?
Lol I'll go with Scripture.
Thanks again.
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You opened with an awesome verse that got my attention and I love you for it because I learned something after you got me looking at the verse. And believe me when I say not all Scripture is awesome. Many verses just kinda say you got your head up your butt or you are of the devil. But this Romans 8:1 is awesome and it's the verse you opened with in this OP. It says in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. I'm commenting on the verse and it says this condemnation that you mention is for those who are in Christ. And then it says who walk after the spirit. My point is very few know what walking in the spirit or being in Christ which is the same thing means because the churches teach it means to walk upright in our flesh or to obey commands.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Those 2 verses you are comparing are speaking on 2 different levels. No more condemnation is speaking of the holiness standard of a person who walks in the power of the Spirit...IN Christ where there is no sin.
The "whatever is not of faith is sin" is on the righteousness level...not the holiness level. Of course this could also apply to someone who is failing the higher walk in holiness. When we know something isn't right and do it anyway...then there is condemnation. The wages of sin is always death. BUT we can walk in the eternal life of Christ above sin....by grace through faith.
1. All Scripture is awesome IMO It all fits together, no matter how jagged the edges are
2. Rest assured, lots of people understand we don't walk upright by being under Law but by being under grace. The method of "keeping commands" is not the point here, the point is merely we see we abide by keeping commands (Jn 15; 1 Jn 3:23,24), and the guy who doesn't keep commands, but sins by failing to do what he's fully convinced in his own mind is correct, is "condemned" (Ro 14:23), whereas those who abide in Christ have "no condemnation" (Ro 8:1). This is a far more satisfying explanation than any other IMO. No places where the puzzle pieces don't fit.
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1. You would not think "in Christ is no condemnation" (Ro 8:1), but "abiding is by obeying" (Jn 15; 1 Jn 3:23,24), and "anything that does not proceed from faith is sin, which leads to condemnation" (Ro 14:23) better explains this--by sinning (not walking in faith), the guy is not abiding in the place where there's no condemnation?
2. Where, in Scripture, do you find that there are condemnations that differ in that way? Doesn't James also teach that "justification is by works"--by which he means "walk in faith"? Isn't the guy in Romans 14:23 falling short and experiencing condemnation instead of justification? Ro 2 says doers of the Law will be justified--those who walk by Grace are "doers of the Law", and they will be justified, and their thoughts will be accusing or excusing them. All along the way, then, our thoughts are accusing or excusing us, and we stand justified or condemned. God not only has a day of judgment, but He assesses us all along the way. Even in 1 Co 11, the Lord Jesus is slaying Christians in order to wake them up so they don't get destroyed on the Day of Judgment. I believe He's assessing us all the way up to that Day.
We are not on the same page. I don't think the verse that says and Judas went and hanged himself is all that awesome.
Could it be possible you are looking at this from mans point of view? That he has to keep something or he lives with condemnation?
I'm looking at this from God's point of view. He doesn't have any condemnation to those who walk in the spirit.
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