What will happen to Christians who reject the Sabbath?

[BarneyFife]

There's no need to read any further because there's no sabbath for the Christian.

This is simply a human pronouncement.

We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary.

You mean obedience to written laws such as "Thou shalt not steal," "Thou shalt not covet," "Thou shalt not kill," etc., is not necessary to "live by faith in what Christ has done for us"?

To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

Abstaining from murder, larceny, idolatry, false witness, etc., "takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands"?

I'm confused.

Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

What is " the law of sin..."?

I guess there no reason to read any further there, either.

.

 

[BarneyFife]

@Peterlag

Is post #160 your way of declining to comment on the paradox created by Galatians 5:3 and 1 Corinthians 7:19?

.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You mean obedience to written laws such as "Thou shalt not steal," "Thou shalt not covet," "Thou shalt not kill," etc., is not necessary to "live by faith in what Christ has done for us"?

Abstaining from murder, larceny, idolatry, false witness, etc., "takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands"?

You have made an excellent case for obedience to God's commandments.
Life in faith implies that the believer loves and keeps God's commandments.

I like the story of Peter walking over the waters, obeying the call of Christ, as a beautiful metaphor of this.
Peter showed his faith in Christ by walking. He didn't stay on the boat saying: "Oh, I do believe it is You, Master. I was just confused... I thought you were a ghost just because of the mist, you know... there is no need to prove it by walking on the water, right?"

We also walk over waters when, by recognizing we are unable to keep the commandments, we still choose to live keeping the commandments because we believe we will get divine support to do it. Any faith without obedience would not be true faith.

Salvation is not only about erasing guilt... it is about transforming our lives.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is simply a human pronouncement.

All pronouncements in this forum are human.

 

[BarneyFife]

We also walk over waters when, by recognizing we are unable to keep the commandments, we still choose to live keeping the commandments because we believe we will get divine support to do it.

It's conflation and inconclusive to say that we are simply unable to keep God's commandments and then to say that we are, after all, able to do so with His help. No one has ever been able to keep His commandments without His help.

Not to mention that the issue at hand is whether we are at liberty to arbitrarily decide which of the ten listed in the moral law of God we will acknowledge as perpetual.

.

 

[Peterlag]

This is simply a human pronouncement.



You mean obedience to written laws such as "Thou shalt not steal," "Thou shalt not covet," "Thou shalt not kill," etc., is not necessary to "live by faith in what Christ has done for us"?



Abstaining from murder, larceny, idolatry, false witness, etc., "takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands"?

I'm confused.



What is " the law of sin..."?

I guess there no reason to read any further there, either.

.

The commandments that the New Testament is asking from the Christian is not the same as the Old Testament commandments. Christians walking in Christ don't have to be told not to kill their neighbor. Israel who did not have the spirit of Christ had to be told not to kill their neighbor.

 

[BarneyFife]

The commandments that the New Testament is asking from the Christian is not the same as the Old Testament commandments.

More pontification?

What people usually mean when they say "not the same" is actually "the same ten minus one."

What law do you think it is that Christ says He came not to destroy or alter one bit?

Christians walking in Christ don't have to be told not to kill their neighbor.

Tell that to remote foreign missionaries. Doubtless you will insist, as others do, that God does some kind of spiritual hocus-pocus act on folks who grew up not knowing the letter of God's law. But those of us who have ministered to these folks know better. They're just as capable of justifying their sin in the face of God's Word as we are. They often do it out of ignorance—we more often do it as a product of prosperity and entitlement.

People dismiss the 4th commandment because they don't want or feel that they need the rest it affords and, yes, even commands.

.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No one has ever been able to keep His commandments without His help.

I totally agree, but men have struggled to realize it.
At least, those arrogant Judaizing members of Paul's congregations, who inspired Paul's attack on self-righteousness in Romans.

Not to mention that the issue at hand is whether we are at liberty to arbitrarily decide which of the ten listed in the moral law of God we will acknowledge as perpetual.

I believe that there are both moral and contingent aspects on the Ten Commandments.
There is a moral basis to all of them, certainly. But I could not take them word by word stating that they are the moral law of God.
There are many other aspects of God's moral law that are not explicitly put in the Ten Comandments, and there are things explicitly put there, that address things in a non-universal way (eg, the second and tenth commandments)

Specifically, the fourth commandment has a spiritual principle (separate time to remember God instead of usual affairs). But it also has a ritual, symbolic aspect (choosing the seventh day or each week).

Let's examine this example. Consider the ancient Chinese who lived during biblical times.

God printed in the hearts of the ancient Chinese His moral law, as in any nation. So a Chinese knew that not honoring your parents was bad, or that taking your neighbor's property was bad. But a Chinese never thought that working on the seventh day of each week was bad. Do you agree?
Then, if ancient Chinese did not anything about abstaining from work on the seventh day, but they did know about not killing or not stealing, it is because God didn't consider that abstaining from work on the seventh day was a moral thing to print into their hearts.

In the image below, this ancient Chinese woman is resting and dedicating some time to reflect on spiritual things, according to her personal conception of divinity. It could be reflecting on the origin of all beauty in nature. It could be about the moral advice from their departed parents, and their fate after death. It could be many things. But she is taking a break to reflect and get in contact with God, in whatever form God may have chosen to speak to her. That's, for me, the spiritual principle of the fourth commandment, which is universal: it touches every heart of every inhabitant of this planet across time.

 

[Peterlag]

More pontification?

What people usually mean when they say "not the same" is actually "the same ten minus one."

What law do you think it is that Christ says He came not to destroy or alter one bit?



Tell that to remote foreign missionaries. Doubtless you will insist, as others do, that God does some kind of spiritual hocus-pocus act on folks who grew up not knowing the letter of God's law. But those of us who have ministered to these folks know better. They're just as capable of justifying their sin in the face of God's Word as we are. They often do it out of ignorance—we more often do it as a product of prosperity and entitlement.

People dismiss the 4th commandment because they don't want or feel that they need the rest it affords and, yes, even commands.

.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The commandments that the New Testament is asking from the Christian is not the same as the Old Testament commandments. Christians walking in Christ don't have to be told not to kill their neighbor. Israel who did not have the spirit of Christ had to be told not to kill their neighbor.

Comandments related to symbols and rituals are clearly not the same.
For example, The OT asks for circumcision. The NT asks for baptism.

Commandments directly addressing spiritual principles are the same, but formulated in a new way.
For example, Jesus gave us a commandment: To love each other as He loved us.
If we want to follow Jesus commandment, we will not murder our neighbor.
If a Hebrew wanted to follow Moses commandment, he did not murder his neighbor.
In both cases, God expects the believer not to kill their neighbor.

 

[Peterlag]

Comandments related to symbols and rituals are clearly not the same.
For example, The OT asks for circumcision. The NT asks for baptism.

Commandments directly addressing spiritual principles are the same, but formulated in a new way.
For example, Jesus gave us a commandment: To love each other as He loved us.
If we want to follow Jesus commandment, we will not murder our neighbor.
If a Hebrew wanted to follow Moses commandment, he did not murder his neighbor.
In both cases, God expects the believer not to kill their neighbor.

Was Jesus talking concerning us or Israel when he said to love each other? And I don't see a baptism in the New Testament. Such thinking was Israel trying to clean themselves to God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Christians walking in Christ don't have to be told not to kill their neighbor.

Well, the followers of Christ are given a lot of specific commandments about what to do or not to do, both by Jesus and Paul.
Paul, in particular, addressed believers who had been baptized, self-identified as followers of Christ... and still needed a lot of explicit talking about how they should behave.

 

[Peterlag]

Well, the followers of Christ are given a lot of specific commandments about what to do or not to do, both by Jesus and Paul.
Paul, in particular, addressed believers who had been baptized, self-identified as followers of Christ... and still needed a lot of explicit talking about how they should behave.

I wonder what part of the Scripture Paul was referring to when he penned...

1 Corinthians 3:1-2
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

 

[Ezra]

I was asked the question on another forum, "What will happen to all those Christians who don't worship on the Sabbath?" I gave the following answer... there are some verses that give a clear answer. Here is what best applies....
Acts 17:24-30
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

When we unknowingly make a honest mistake, Gods grace is sufficient and He winks at our ignorance. But when we in all fullness of understanding knowingly do it.......

actually i worship everyday by giving thanks as per going church i go on sundays something happens to me i go to heaven

 

[Grailhunter]

I was asked the question on another forum, "What will happen to all those Christians who don't worship on the Sabbath?" I gave the following answer... there are some verses that give a clear answer. Here is what best applies....
Acts 17:24-30
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

When we unknowingly make a honest mistake, Gods grace is sufficient and He winks at our ignorance. But when we in all fullness of understanding knowingly do it.......

I am thinking that if Christians want to worship on the Lord’s Day and on the Jewish Saturday Sabbath it probably won’t hurt anything.

But if they give up the Lord’s Day and worship only on the Jewish Saturday Sabbath …..I wonder if Christ will smack'em with the Jew stamp and they will no longer be eligible for Heaven.

If you are so keen about worshiping on the Jewish Saturday Sabbath go down to your local synagogue and tell them you want to be a Jew. While you are there ask them if any of them want to buy your daughter as a concubine. And while you are at it get them to stamp your ticket to Hell!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I wonder what part of the Scripture Paul was referring to when he penned...

1 Corinthians 3:1-2
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

You've made a very good point, my friend.
As a believer grows up in Christ, passing from being a spiritual baby to a spiritual adult, all commandments that had to be explicitly given in a written or explicit form, become embedded in believer's mind and life.
Unlike a child, an adult doesn't need anymore to hear "Don't forget to brush your teeth" because he has made it part of his life (Well, to be honest, I still need to hear it from time to time from my wife! )

Now, this doesn't mean that the moral law has disappeared. It only means that it doesn't need to be formulated in the same way. We read in the Scriptures:

“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” (Hebrews 10:16)

So, under a new covenant, the laws of God continue to exist. It is just that they are followed spontaneously out of a transformed mind.

 

[St. SteVen]

Now, this doesn't mean that the moral law has disappeared. It only means that it doesn't need to be formulated in the same way. We read in the Scriptures:

I would interject that we need to understand what "law" we are talking about.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

]

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

But if they give up the Lord’s Day and worship only on the Jewish Saturday Sabbath …..I wonder if Christ will smack'em with the Jew stamp and they will no longer be eligible for Heaven.

Why would Christ do that?
He never commanded to keep Sundays, right?
If keeping Sundays were so important to get to heaven, Jesus would have made it crystal clear, do you agree?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I would interject that we need to understand what "law" we are talking about.

You're right, St SteVen, in asking for a clarification.
I used the term "moral law" to exclude commandments that prescribe rituals, or social/political commandments (related to social circumstances that can change in history).

For example, not cheating on your husband or wife is a moral law. One that can be written in the heart and, indeed, has been written in the heart of people all around the globe, not necessarily Jews or Christians.
Stoning to death an adulterer is a social/political commandment that suited a given time, culture or need.

 

[Peterlag]

You've made a very good point, my friend.
As a believer grows up in Christ, passing from being a spiritual baby to a spiritual adult, all commandments that had to be explicitly given in a written or explicit form, become embedded in believer's mind and life.
Unlike a child, an adult doesn't need anymore to hear "Don't forget to brush your teeth" because he has made it part of his life (Well, to be honest, I still need to hear it from time to time from my wife! )

Now, this doesn't mean that the moral law has disappeared. It only means that it doesn't need to be formulated in the same way. We read in the Scriptures:

“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” (Hebrews 10:16)

So, under a new covenant, the laws of God continue to exist. It is just that they are followed spontaneously out of a transformed mind.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.