False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Keraz]

Pure baloney.
I looked it up and "the" is in there as solid as a rock and used many times.
You purposefully misrepresent that?
Or did you just assume " the" does not exist in the greek?
It is used TWICE in rev 7.
The great tribulation.
100% accurate.

The error is not in using 'the' before great tribulation, but in thinking it refers to the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
That belief is where many go wrong, as it obviously is referring to the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

Those people who receive the white robes of righteousness, Rev 7:13-14, are those who stood firm in their faith and trusted in the Lord for His protection, as the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath causes all the vividly described effects of that Day. A literal 24 hour day.

The actual Great Tribulation will occur during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

 

[The Light]

Technically in the Greek it is "the great the tribulation" because they used an article before both the noun and the adjective. But one can remove both of the articles, because they are not necessary in English, unless of course one has a theological bias, and trying to define this tribulation past the point it is actually referring to. We do not place articles in front of most adjectives, except in this case, because some want to get the right "great" emphasized.

Nice. So I'm not a liar?

Except none of The Great Multitude came out of The Great Tribulation. If this were true, then your two pre-trib posters are actually post tribulation, like every other poster arguing a post trib position.

Actually, the Church has been raptured before the tribulation which is why they are seen in heaven in Rev 5. And part of those in the great multitude are the Church which is gathered from heaven and then returned to heaven. The other part of the great multitude which is gathered from the earth in the harvest at the 6th seal is the seed of the woman, Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth.................seen here.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

So this rapture at the 6th seal is both post trib and pre wrath.

I would argue that the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24 are not talking about some great short tribulation, just like Revelation 7 is not talking about some great short tribulation. The church is not defined by a bunch of post trib people gathered in a few months.

I would argue that you are not correct based on the scripture. You should rethink this. Here is the tribulation of those days

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The church is defined by people coming out of great tribulation since the Flood of Noah's day. Noah escaped great tribulation, no?

No. Noah escaped the wrath of God, not the tribulation, and was in the ark 6 days before the flood

Jesus told his disciples in Matthew 24, the church would have tribulation from the time He left the earth, until He returned. So great tribulation and the tribulation "of those days" is not limited to a short Great Tribulation that some modify with the article "The". The word being modified is the adjective "Great", not "The Tribulation"

The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation as the Word says:
great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[The Light]

The error is not in using 'the' before great tribulation, but in thinking it refers to the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
That belief is where many go wrong, as it obviously is referring to the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

The great tribulation has nothing whatsoever to do with the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls. The great tribulation is period of time when the dragon is killing all the believers, and is over at the 6th seal.. The trumpets and bowls are the wrath of God and are the 7th seal.

Those people who receive the white robes of righteousness, Rev 7:13-14, are those who stood firm in their faith and trusted in the Lord for His protection
, as the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath causes all the vividly described effects of that Day. A literal 24 hour day.

The day of the Lord is 1 year not 24 hours.

 

[Douggg]

The error is not in using 'the' before great tribulation, but in thinking it refers to the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
That belief is where many go wrong, as it obviously is referring to the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

Keraz, you are saying the Great Tribulation is the Sixth Seal event ?

But don't you also claim that the Sixth Seal event happens before the 7 years even begin - i.e, in your scenario the Sixth Seal event will be Solar flare event that depopulates the middle east, so that in the aftermath Christians will move there from all over the world to form a new nation that you are calling Beulah ?

i.e. according to you - Sixth Event is the Great Tribulation event - the middle east depopulated - a new nation of Beulah then created - then the 7 years begin.

If I have mis- stated your view, then please put these things in order....

the sixth seal event
a new nation of Beulah created
the 7 years begin
the Great Tribulation

 

[Douggg]

The great tribulation has nothing whatsoever to do with the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls. The great tribulation is period of time when the dragon is killing all the believers, and is over at the 6th seal.. The trumpets and bowls are the wrath of God and are the 7th seal.

The great tribulation does include the persecution and martyring of the saints, agreed. A time of Satan's wrath.

But the great tribulation also includes the 7 trumpet plagues and the 7 vial plagues.

Thus, the Great Tribulation will be a time of unmatched battle between good and evil. Will you agree to that ?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The seven trumpet plagues are revealed when Jesus opened the seventh seal in chapter 8. Differently, several chapters later, in chapter 15, John saw another sign, vision, that revealed the seven last plagues. So a total of 14 plagues - i.e. 7 trumpet plagues, 7 vial plagues.

Revelation 8:
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 15:
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

 

[The Light]

But the great tribulation also includes the 7 trumpet plagues and the 7 vial plagues.

Thus, the Great Tribulation will be a time of unmatched battle between good and evil. Will you agree to that ?

No Douggg I can't agree with that. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. We know that by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Think Douggg. IMMETIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Jesus returns for the SECOND harvest. That occurs at the 6th seal. We know that because of the signs of the sun, moon and stars in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The seven trumpet plagues are revealed when Jesus opened the seventh seal in chapter 8. Differently, several chapters later, in chapter 15, John saw another sign, vision, that revealed the seven last plagues. So a total of 14 plagues - i.e. 7 trumpet plagues, 7 vial plagues.

No sir. The trumpets and vials occur in the same time frame known as the wrath of God.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Think Douggg. When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, Armageddon is already over. So what you see in the 7 vials is just additional information of what occurs in the 7th seal. The trumpets and vials occur in the same timeframe known as the wrath of God.

Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Think Douggg. When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, Armageddon is already over. So what you see in the 7 vials is just additional information of what occurs in the 7th seal. The trumpets and vials occur in the same timeframe known as the wrath of God.

"are become" not have become. "are become" indicates that when the seventh angel sounds - a process begins to transfer the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.

The seventh angel sounds and the process begins to take the kingdoms of the world out from under Satan and his angels' control of it. The process will last the time, times, half time that Satan will have left, cast down to earth as the third woe of when the seventh angel sounds.

Why don't you get a graphics program like Corel Paintshop Pro, available at Amazon. Then learn how to use it, and make some timelines and diagrams that show your views in an understandable fashion.

Such as, what I have done... at a glance, a person can look at the diagram and see what each of the trumpets and each of the vials are about.

 

[The Light]

"are become" not have become. "are become" indicates that when the seventh angel sounds - a process begins to transfer the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ.

The seventh angel sounds and the process begins to take the kingdoms of the world out from under Satan and his angels' control of it. The process will last the time, times, half time that Satan will have left, cast down to earth as the third woe of when the seventh angel sounds.

Come on Douggg. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord means that Christ has set up His kingdom on earth.

Why don't you get a graphics program like Corel Paintshop Pro, available at Amazon. Then learn how to use it, and make some timelines and diagrams that show your views in an understandable fashion.

I could probably improvise and use paint.net or photoshop

Such as, what I have done... at a glance, a person can look at the diagram and see what each of the trumpets and each of the vials are about.

The most important thing to know is that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

 

[ewq1938]

Isaiah 34 is obviously referring to what happens at the 6th seal. You know, one of the seals that you think doesn't happen.

You don't understand my position anymore than you understand that seal. The events happen, just not when the seals are opened.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah 34 says that the DAY of the vengeance is also THE year of recompences.

Which is not saying it lasts for a year.

The day of the Lord is one year

Nothing says that.

and that is how THE DAY of wrath IS come at the 6th seal and thy wrath is come after the 7th trumpet.

The only way that wrath can come at both a seal and trump is how I view it, that the 6th seal is speaking of 7th trump events.

The 6th seal is not foretelling of the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet can't even happen until the 7th seal is opened. Your logic is left wanting.

Your logic is the flawed one. Obviously the 6th seal is speaking of 7th trump events which is why the wrath of God comes in both descriptions. It doesn't come twice as your view would be with the seal events/WOG happening first, then much later the 7th trump events/WOG happening a second time.

 

[Douggg]

Come on Douggg. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord means that Christ has set up His kingdom on earth.

No, the text would have said "have become".

The seventh angel sounding is connected to when the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth begins. The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is plainly stated in Revelation 12:12 as Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath because he knows his time is short. A time, times, half time.

I could probably improvise and use paint.net or photoshop

I am not familiar with paint.net. Have you used it ? Does it allow the use of creating layers ? How to use layers is the basis for Corel PaintShop Pro.

The most important thing to know is that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

You are speaking your opinion. If you had a timeline or diagram, you could show how you think things fit together.

I need to check if there is a technical forum at Christianityboard so it can be discussed how to use PaintShop Pro to make charts, diagrams, etc...pictures.

 

[Timtofly]

Actually, the Church has been raptured before the tribulation which is why they are seen in heaven in Rev 5. And part of those in the great multitude are the Church which is gathered from heaven and then returned to heaven. The other part of the great multitude which is gathered from the earth in the harvest at the 6th seal is the seed of the woman, Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth.................seen here.

Do you think the church is going to live on the earth during the Millennium? Because there is no indication of that as no one else has ever come back to live without dying. God tried that with the sons of God living on earth with Adam and Eve's offspring in dead corruptible bodies. The sons of God became as wicked as the unsaved.

I don't see the church returning until they come down in the New Jerusalem.


I also don't see the remnant of Israel and of all nations, who you classify as "the church" as being part of the GM. They are the firstfruits of the Second Coming, and they live on the earth during the Millennium. So you are wrong to say they are raptured at some sorta return of Jesus.


Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives and subsequently Jerusalem at the 6th Seal, and that is the Second Coming, where He sits as Israel's King and judges the sheep and goats who represent all the tribes of Israel. They are gathered by the angels out of all nations per Matthew 25.

The church up until the 5th Seal is the GM, not part of the GM. You keep forgetting that after 5,000 years most of the church is already in Paradise. Now the earth was never as populated as we see it today, but millions of Israel still were redeemed despite how bad the nation became at times.

What those people were doing in that scene was not symbolic of earth. They have been serving God day and night for the last 1994 years. No one is waiting for rapture or future resurrection to do those things.

None of the church is harvested in Revelation 14 with a sickle in the winepress.

You all are so wrapped up in some word zigsaw puzzle that you are trying to piece together, that you are missing the simple straightforward set of harvests placed into the book.

The Seals are dealing with the church. The Seals represent how one is sealed by the Holy Spirit. The Seals prevent the Lamb's book of life from being opened and edited so that names can be blotted out, that is removed. Unless you are messed up in limited Atonement, all the names of every descendant of Adam and Eve ever to be conceived, are still written in the Lamb's book of life, because the 7th Seal has not been removed. Only after the 7th Seal is removed can the time of Jacob's trouble, you all call "Thee Great Tribulation" even start.

Because the Trumpets deal only with the 12 tribes of Jacob. That is why 12K from every tribe are sealed before the 7th Seal is even opened. And they are not the church, because the rapture happened at the 5th Seal. Remember the 3 woes attached to the last 3 Trumpets. 3 warnings are attached to the last 3 Seals. When the church is glorified in the 5th Seal, that is a warning to those on earth, their time is about up. Then the whole earth is geographically changed at the 6th Seal. If any missed the church being glorified, they certainly will not miss the 6th Seal. Which is also the baptism of fire mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10. The Sealing of the 144k and the opening of the 7th Seal is the warning to Israel that the 70 weeks are about completed. They will know God means business when all the angels show up and start transporting them to Jerusalem, during the Trumpets.

The 7 Thunders deal with the remnant of all nations waiting for God's redemption. They were sealed up, and not written down, because they do not pertain to the church, nor to Israel. If you all are in so much confusion and disagreement over what was written, what would you all do if you knew what the 7 Thunders entailed?

Revelation is the simple and systematic removal of the current 8 billion+ souls from the earth. None of them, will enter the Millennium in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, the same as that flesh and blood cannot enter heaven, and visit those in Paradise.

Even the firstfruits gathered after the Second Coming, though not part of the church cannot inherit the earthly kingdom with Christ in our present condition. All have to be changed.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

No one on earth will naturally grow old and die. They will continue to procreate and reign over their families for dozens of generations. That is how God planned it with Adam and Eve giving them their own huge area of land to settle on. Why would the Day of the Lord be any different? Adam and Eve were not the only sons of God couple on earth. They were just the couple who allowed sin to enter creation. The Greeks had their own version of the story, no? Sin will not be allowed to enter the Millennium, because it is a Day of the Lord, set apart and Holy.

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, you are saying the Great Tribulation is the Sixth Seal event ?

But don't you also claim that the Sixth Seal event happens before the 7 years even begin - i.e, in your scenario the Sixth Seal event will be Solar flare event that depopulates the middle east, so that in the aftermath Christians will move there from all over the world to form a new nation that you are calling Beulah ?

i.e. according to you - Sixth Event is the Great Tribulation event - the middle east depopulated - a new nation of Beulah then created - then the 7 years begin.

If I have mis- stated your view, then please put these things in order....

the sixth seal event
a new nation of Beulah created
the 7 years begin
the Great Tribulation

No, I am not conflating the SS with the GT.
What I said was that those given white robes, had proved their faith by standing firm and trusting the Lod for protection on His terrible Day of vengeance and wrath; the Sixth Seal event. Rev 7 does not refer to the Great Trib.

The sequence of events you list in #924, is as the Bibe prophets say.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The great tribulation does include the persecution and martyring of the saints, agreed. A time of Satan's wrath.

But the great tribulation also includes the 7 trumpet plagues and the 7 vial plagues.

Thus, the Great Tribulation will be a time of unmatched battle between good and evil. Will you agree to that ?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The seven trumpet plagues are revealed when Jesus opened the seventh seal in chapter 8. Differently, several chapters later, in chapter 15, John saw another sign, vision, that revealed the seven last plagues. So a total of 14 plagues - i.e. 7 trumpet plagues, 7 vial plagues.

Revelation 8:
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 15:
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

As soon as the AC takes power he begins the mark.
Thus the slaughter of millions (billions?) of Christians. (the 5 foolish virgins left behind).
The great trib
Right at the start.
Never before has that many believers been exterminated.
Jacob's trouble begins.
7 yr great trib right from the start.

 

[Douggg]

As soon as the AC takes power he begins the mark.
Thus the slaughter of millions (billions?) of Christians. (the 5 foolish virgins left behind).
The great trib
Right at the start.
Never before has that many believers been exterminated.
Jacob's trouble begins.
7 yr great trib right from the start.

In Matthew 24:15-21, Jesus said that the great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation, that the prophet Daniel spoke of, standing in a holy place.

Daniel 12:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The great tribulation will 1335 days long. Ending when Jesus returns.

The great tribulation is not 7 years long.

---------------------------------------------------------

The mark of the beast law will not be enacted until the last 42 months of the 7 years. Revelation 13:16-18.

 

[Davy]

Do you think the church is going to live on the earth during the Millennium? Because there is no indication of that as no one else has ever come back to live without dying. God tried that with the sons of God living on earth with Adam and Eve's offspring in dead corruptible bodies. The sons of God became as wicked as the unsaved.

I don't see the church returning until they come down in the New Jerusalem.


I also don't see the remnant of Israel and of all nations, who you classify as "the church" as being part of the GM. They are the firstfruits of the Second Coming, and they live on the earth during the Millennium. So you are wrong to say they are raptured at some sorta return of Jesus.


Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives and subsequently Jerusalem at the 6th Seal, and that is the Second Coming, where He sits as Israel's King and judges the sheep and goats who represent all the tribes of Israel. They are gathered by the angels out of all nations per Matthew 25.

The church up until the 5th Seal is the GM, not part of the GM. You keep forgetting that after 5,000 years most of the church is already in Paradise. Now the earth was never as populated as we see it today, but millions of Israel still were redeemed despite how bad the nation became at times.

What those people were doing in that scene was not symbolic of earth. They have been serving God day and night for the last 1994 years. No one is waiting for rapture or future resurrection to do those things.

None of the church is harvested in Revelation 14 with a sickle in the winepress.

You all are so wrapped up in some word zigsaw puzzle that you are trying to piece together, that you are missing the simple straightforward set of harvests placed into the book.

The Seals are dealing with the church. The Seals represent how one is sealed by the Holy Spirit. The Seals prevent the Lamb's book of life from being opened and edited so that names can be blotted out, that is removed. Unless you are messed up in limited Atonement, all the names of every descendant of Adam and Eve ever to be conceived, are still written in the Lamb's book of life, because the 7th Seal has not been removed. Only after the 7th Seal is removed can the time of Jacob's trouble, you all call "Thee Great Tribulation" even start.

Because the Trumpets deal only with the 12 tribes of Jacob. That is why 12K from every tribe are sealed before the 7th Seal is even opened. And they are not the church, because the rapture happened at the 5th Seal. Remember the 3 woes attached to the last 3 Trumpets. 3 warnings are attached to the last 3 Seals. When the church is glorified in the 5th Seal, that is a warning to those on earth, their time is about up. Then the whole earth is geographically changed at the 6th Seal. If any missed the church being glorified, they certainly will not miss the 6th Seal. Which is also the baptism of fire mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10. The Sealing of the 144k and the opening of the 7th Seal is the warning to Israel that the 70 weeks are about completed. They will know God means business when all the angels show up and start transporting them to Jerusalem, during the Trumpets.

The 7 Thunders deal with the remnant of all nations waiting for God's redemption. They were sealed up, and not written down, because they do not pertain to the church, nor to Israel. If you all are in so much confusion and disagreement over what was written, what would you all do if you knew what the 7 Thunders entailed?

Revelation is the simple and systematic removal of the current 8 billion+ souls from the earth. None of them, will enter the Millennium in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, the same as that flesh and blood cannot enter heaven, and visit those in Paradise.

Even the firstfruits gathered after the Second Coming, though not part of the church cannot inherit the earthly kingdom with Christ in our present condition. All have to be changed.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

No one on earth will naturally grow old and die. They will continue to procreate and reign over their families for dozens of generations. That is how God planned it with Adam and Eve giving them their own huge area of land to settle on. Why would the Day of the Lord be any different? Adam and Eve were not the only sons of God couple on earth. They were just the couple who allowed sin to enter creation. The Greeks had their own version of the story, no? Sin will not be allowed to enter the Millennium, because it is a Day of the Lord, set apart and Holy.

In Matthew 24:15-21, Jesus said that the great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation, that the prophet Daniel spoke of, standing in a holy place.

Daniel 12:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The great tribulation will 1335 days long. Ending when Jesus returns.

The great tribulation is not 7 years long.

---------------------------------------------------------

The mark of the beast law will not be enacted until the last 42 months of the 7 years. Revelation 13:16-18.

Jesus shortened the time of "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:22). He showed in Rev.9 that shortened time will be five months.

The idea that Christ's Church is raptured to Heaven while the seed of Israel and unbelievers are left on earth to go through the tribulation, is a doctrine of men, like John Darby of 1830's Great Britain started, and is called Dispensationalism. It is a false doctrine designed to try and support the false pre-trib rapture theory which Darby first preached in Britain. Cyrus Scofield took that doctrine and monies he got from New York bankers and lawyers and created his Scofield Study Bible, and that's how the false pre-trib rapture doctrine spread to the Americas.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The flood was a 40 day event. And two of every animal on earth safe within the ark survived it, as well as Noah and his family.

The great tribulation will be 1335 days long. And if it continues any further, no flesh on earth will survive.

You could see that I had a point about the flood, so what did you do? You tried another angle instead. But, how long these events last is irrelevant. Jesus gave no indication that the duration of great tribulation was of any particular significance. You are adding your own ideas to the text even though there is nothing there to support what you're saying.

In Jerusalem is where the Great Tribulation will start with the abomination of desolation being set up there on the temple mount.

But it will quickly spread to the rest of the world. Verses 21-22 implies that the great tribulation will be worldwide.


21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

If we stick to what Jesus actually said in Matthew 24:15-22, we can see that He mentioned NOTHING about the tribulation He described occurring anywhere besides in Jerusalem and Judea. He only referred to a local or regional tribulation in Matthew 24:15-22 and not global. You are adding to the scripture by trying to say it would spread from there to the whole world. Jesus did not say that at all.

You are clearly not having any understanding of what Jesus meant when He said "then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time". There is nothing there in that statement to indicate that He was talking about either local/regional tribulation or global tribulation. We can only discern that from the context of what He had just been talking about previous to making that statement. And the context of what He had been talking about was in relation to Jerusalem and Judea.

So, with that in mind and without adding our own ideas to what He was saying, what did Jesus mean when He said "then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time" and when He said "except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved"? Well, again, we have to consider the context. Was He talking about tribulation in that particular area they were in or tribulation throughout the world? Clearly, He was only talking about local or regional tribulation. Only doctrinal bias can prevent someone from seeing that.

So, what was He saying then in Matthew 24:21-22? He was saying that there would be great tribulation unlike any that had ever occurred before or ever would occur again. That only implies that it would be different than any other tribulation before or after it, not that it would last longer or involve more overall destruction or anything like that.

You originally thought He was speaking of the scope of the tribulation so you assumed it had to be global. Then I brought up that it couldn't be greater tribulation than the flood, so then you resorted to acting as if the duration of the tribulation makes any difference, which it does not. No, He was saying that the kind of things that would happen during that time of "great tribulation" would be unlike anything that had ever occurred before or would ever occur again. And if you read about what happened in 70 AD that event fits that description.

Around 70 AD the Roman armies attacked Jerusalem and thoroughly destroyed it, including its beloved temple buildings. Such an attack with destruction to that extent had never occurred in any city before that and never since. And, according to Jesus, never again.

But, you might ask in response to what I just said, what about Sodom and Gomorrah? Again, this is a reference to the type of tribulation this would be. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire that came down from God. That is completely different than what happened in 70 AD. Instead of supernatural destruction caused by God it was caused by men. And there were horrible things that happened there unlike anything that has happened before or since to that extent in any city. Before attacking the city the Romans didn't allow food or water to be brought in for months causing many people to survive. Once they attacked they mercilessly and barbarically murdered many people, most of whom were defenseless. The rest who hadn't fled and escaped and weren't killed were forced out of the city with many forced to be slaves in other places. You can research this for yourself if you want more details, but I think it suffices to say that it was horrific and unlike any other event in the history of the world.

 

[The Light]

Jesus shortened the time of "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:22). He showed in Rev.9 that shortened time will be five months.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The 5 months in Rev 9 occurs after the great tribulation is already over.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The idea that Christ's Church is raptured to Heaven while the seed of Israel and unbelievers are left on earth to go through the tribulation, is a doctrine of men, like John Darby of 1830's Great Britain started, and is called Dispensationalism.

The idea was started by Jesus.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Darby stayed true to the Word claiming that the nation of Israel would be reborn in the future. During the time that there was no nation of Israel, unbelieving men claimed that the Church had replaced Israel. Darby was correct as the Word of God is correct.

It is a false doctrine designed to try and support the false pre-trib rapture theory which Darby first preached in Britain. Cyrus Scofield took that doctrine and monies he got from New York bankers and lawyers and created his Scofield Study Bible, and that's how the false pre-trib rapture doctrine spread to the Americas.

You don't need to research any of these men to find out what the pretribulation rapture is. It's much easier to just use the Bible as a reference.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[ewq1938]

In Matthew 24:15-21, Jesus said that the great tribulation begins with the abomination of desolation, that the prophet Daniel spoke of, standing in a holy place.

Daniel 12:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The great tribulation will 1335 days long. Ending when Jesus returns.

The great tribulation is not 7 years long.

---------------------------------------------------------

The mark of the beast law will not be enacted until the last 42 months of the 7 years. Revelation 13:16-18.

There is no trib before those 42 months. The entirety of the trib is 42 months. It used to be longer but Christ said it would be shortened and thus Rev reflects the new length of it, 42 months no more or less.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus shortened the time of "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:22). He showed in Rev.9 that shortened time will be five months.

The idea that Christ's Church is raptured to Heaven while the seed of Israel and unbelievers are left on earth to go through the tribulation, is a doctrine of men, like John Darby of 1830's Great Britain started, and is called Dispensationalism. It is a false doctrine designed to try and support the false pre-trib rapture theory which Darby first preached in Britain. Cyrus Scofield took that doctrine and monies he got from New York bankers and lawyers and created his Scofield Study Bible, and that's how the false pre-trib rapture doctrine spread to the Americas.

The Second Coming is pre-trib according to John in Revelation 6, the 5th and 6th Seals.

 

[Douggg]

There is no trib before those 42 months. The entirety of the trib is 42 months. It used to be longer but Christ said it would be shortened and thus Rev reflects the new length of it, 42 months no more or less.

Jesus did not nullify what is written in Daniel 12:11-12. 1290 days and 1335 days from when the abomination of desolation is setup.

You have misunderstood what Jesus said in Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Jesus is saying in that verse if the great tribulation were allowed to go on, all life on earth would be eradicated. But so that does not happen, a cap is put on long the great tribulation will last - 1335 days.

Jesus is amplifying how severe the great tribulation will be.