Revelation 11 and Revelation 12

[Timtofly]

Shucks and there I was believing John when he told me there would be a new earth that the saints will be living on and that the temple of God would be in their midst forever, who is the Lamb of God.

One minute you have an antichrist sitting in a temple in Jerusalem and the next you have Christ sitting in the same temple.

It's all bizarre to me.

I give up. I'm not following you.

I admit, I'm not following you.

The New Jerusalem is when Jesus is the temple as you put it. That is after the Day of the Lord.

You are not reading my post well. Jesus has been sitting on the throne in Jerusalem since the 6th Seal. It may be a year later or a month later, but when the 7th Trumpet sounds, Jesus is announced King of the world. Have you seen this verse:

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

The 7th Trumpet is a week long celebration of the Triumph as King. Remember how there was supposed to be a week long celebration with Jesus as King in 30AD, but instead, Jesus was placed on the Cross as the Messiah? There is a chance that in the midst of the days of the 7th Trumpet, Satan, I never posted antichrist, will be handed that throne. So 3.5 days later, Jesus is ousted, so to speak by God, and the 7th Kingdom is put on hold for 42 months and 3.5 days.

Not as long as the hold on Jesus sitting in Jerusalem as King between 30AD and today.

That is what John wrote, not something you have heard from human theology.

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Babylon is fallen, Medes and Persians have fallen, Greece has fallen, Rome has fallen. The ten toes of the Roman Empire has fallen. The 6th kingdom was mortally wounded, healed, and then removed by Jesus as the 7th Kingdom. For 3.5 days, a very short kingdom, only if Satan is allowed by God to be the 8th kingdom for 42 months. Satan's time is also short. When the 42 months end, Satan kills the 2 witnesses, and the last 3.5 days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet finishes. These days are when the 7 vials are poured out. Then the 2 witnesses are brought back to life, you know that post trib resurrection, and rapture? And are caught up into heaven. Then later that Sunday is the one hour battle of Armageddon where the ten horns fight against the Lamb, and are killed.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

Armageddon places Jesus back as the 7th Kingdom. If Satan does not get 42 months, the week ends with the winepress of God's wrath, Satan is bound, and the Day of the Lord starts. There is a Temple in current Jerusalem during the Day of the Lord. Jesus is sitting on His glorious throne in that Temple. It certainly is not people's bodies.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL! What does that even mean? Sure, I'd prefer everyone agree with me, but I am okay with disagreement. The order of events in a book like Revelation and other prophetic books like Daniel and Isaiah has to be spiritually discerned. They are not a telling of events in chronological order from beginning to end.


This is utter nonsense, which is the norm for you. Are Revelation 11 and 12 in chronological order? Absolutely not. Unless you think the birth of Christ and His ascension (referenced in Revelation 12:5) occurs after the seventh trumpet, which I'm sure you don't. But, keep on with your nonsense if you want.

Not being in chronological order is human opinion, and frankly nonsense, seeing as how God created reality to have chronological order.

Show me the verse in Revelation where John wrote a warning that he will not write it in order as he sees events takes place, but will jumble everything up, so one has to have spiritual discernment to get the correct order down? Or, God did not let John see things in order because that would go against the orderly nature of God as the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end?

I already said that Revelation 12 does not start out with an event. It shows an historical introduction to Satan into the narrative. Satan and his angels are booted out of heaven during the 7th Trumpet. The angels were released from the pit at the 5th Trumpet as the first woe. Now we are 2 Trumpets and 7 Thunders later in events on the earth. I don't think Babylon becomes a kingdom all over again and we live through all 6 heads after the 7th Trumpet, because the dragon is not an event nor even a reality. It is a symbolic metaphor of the historical past. There is no kingdom rising out of the sea in chapter 13. The same metaphor of historical reality with a slight change in symbolism. The 6th Trumpet is an event. The 7 Thunders are events we cannot ignore, but are not told about. The dragon is not an event. Satan and the rebel angels cast out of heaven is an event. Satan handed the kingdom, 3.5 days after the 7th Trumpet starts sounding, is an event, not symbolism. The symbolism of the scarlet colored beast, is the same as the dragon and sea beast. Now we see, Satan as the 8th king, but his empire will only last 3.5 years. When they are over Satan kills the 2 Witnesses per Revelation 11, because the first part of Revelation 11 was a parenthetical description of the witness event of two humans left on earth during those 3.5 years given to Satan, because all the redeemed have gone to a safe place during Satan's reign per Revelation 12, which is also describing how Satan relates to the 7th Trumpet. The events from Revelation 10:5 to Revelation 19:21 are all events happening in the days of the 7th Trumpet. Thus the 7 vials are poured out if Satan is given 42 months, the last 3.5 days of the 7th Trumpet.

So if you don't think any of Revelation 11 to 19 are in order, it is because they all fall under the 7th Trumpet, which sounds after the 7 Thunders, and not even the 6th Trumpet. Revelation 11 is not talking about the first 6 Trumpets. Revelation 14 is not talking about any of the Trumpets or Thunders or Seals, except the events of the 7th Trumpet.

And the Seals are not parallel with the Trumpets, Thunders, nor Vials. Because we don't even know the Thunders, so how can we say every set is a different view of the same event, when John shows us they are in chronological order? And your only objection has always been chapter 12 after 11. But chapter 12 is not even a seperate event. It is a symbolic historical introduction of Satan into the narrative, and has nothing to do with any of those past fallen empires, so not chronological concerning the 7th Trumpet to any other Trumpet, Thunder, nor Seal.

And the argument they are not in chronological order implies a chronological order, no? No one has to even claim there is an order to the events, because that is sorta how John writes anyways. One set happens and then sets up the narrative for the next set.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not being in chronological order is human opinion, and frankly nonsense, seeing as how God created reality to have chronological order.

So, are you telling me that what is recorded in Revelation 12:5 (the birth and ascension of Christ) happened after what is recorded in Revelation 11:15-19 (relating to the seventh trumpet)?

Show me the verse in Revelation where John wrote a warning that he will not write it in order as he sees events takes place, but will jumble everything up, so one has to have spiritual discernment to get the correct order down?

Why would he need to do that? Clearly, Revelation was intended to be spiritually discerned. That's why it contains so much symbolic text. Clearly, Revelation 11 and 12, at the very least, are not chronological, so why do you act as if the entire book is chronological from beginning to end? That's nonsense. And since Revelation 11 and 12 are clearly not chronological, as any honest person will acknowledge, then what reason is there to think that the rest of the book must be chronological? None. So, spare me your nonsense already.

 

[Timtofly]

So, are you telling me that what is recorded in Revelation 12:5 (the birth and ascension of Christ) happened after what is recorded in Revelation 11:15-19 (relating to the seventh trumpet)?


Why would he need to do that? Clearly, Revelation was intended to be spiritually discerned. That's why it contains so much symbolic text. Clearly, Revelation 11 and 12, at the very least, are not chronological, so why do you act as if the entire book is chronological from beginning to end? That's nonsense. And since Revelation 11 and 12 are clearly not chronological, as any honest person will acknowledge, then what reason is there to think that the rest of the book must be chronological? None. So, spare me your nonsense already.

It is nonsense to ask if Jesus was born after the 7th Trumpet sounded.

Spare me your nonsensical excuses. If the book is not in chronological order, it is nonsensical to keep telling everyone it is not. That would already be evident from the text.

Some of us will just keep accepting the Seals happened prior to the 1st Trumpet. That the vials do not send us back to the Seals. That Revelation is not caught in a time loop, having to keep repeat ltself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is nonsense to ask if Jesus was born after the 7th Trumpet sounded.

Normally, it would be, but it's not when you claim the entire book is in chronological order. Since you make that claim, I have to ask that rhetorical question to show that Revelation 11 and 12 alone prove that it is not the case that the whole book is written in chronological order. You have decided that there can not be any other places in the book besides Revelation 11 and 12 where what is written is not in chronological order. I see no basis for believing that.

Spare me your nonsensical excuses. If the book is not in chronological order, it is nonsensical to keep telling everyone it is not. That would already be evident from the text.

LOL. It is evident to a lot of us, but to people lacking in discernment like you, it's not.

 

[Timtofly]

Normally, it would be, but it's not when you claim the entire book is in chronological order. Since you make that claim, I have to ask that rhetorical question to show that Revelation 11 and 12 alone prove that it is not the case that the whole book is written in chronological order. You have decided that there can not be any other places in the book besides Revelation 11 and 12 where what is written is not in chronological order. I see no basis for believing that.


LOL. It is evident to a lot of us, but to people lacking in discernment like you, it's not.

Where have I posted the entire book is in chronological order?

I have posted that John wrote as he saw the events take place, and John wrote them down as they happened. You are literally claiming John jumped around in time and saw the events out of the order they occur in. Then you are saying every thing John saw was a literal event. Then to top it off, you claim John saw history repeat itself 7 times.

Even though you claim there is only symbolism in the book, and one has to have discernment, it only takes common sense to see what actually happens.

I have never posted that every symbolic "word picture" is in chronological order. I have repeatedly posted that the dragon in chapter 12, the sea beast in chapter 13, and the scarlet beast in chapter 17 is the same symbolic reference to the historical relationship between Satan and the image of Daniel 2, with the 6th kingdom being from the Reformation until the Second Coming and the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, and that Satan, the 7th head is an 8th kingdom. The last two "heads" not found in Daniel 2. So how could history repeat itself 3 times in chronological order? Your false accusation is just your way of avoiding any actual discussion on the topic and to force all your points on me personally. John incorporates parenthetical descriptions to further explain an event or why an event is taking place. These parenthetical explanations fit in between the chronological order of events, but they certainly do not have to fit exactly in the chronology of the events taking place. A few parenthetical observations cover the same events as the actual set of chronological sets of the four major events. These four events happen in chronological order, the Seals, the first 6 Trumpets, the 7 Thunders, then the 7th Trumpet, and last of all, if necessary, the 7 vials of God's wrath.

The symbolism of the 7 heads is not an event that takes place in the order of the book. Many want to say that each mention is a different period of history, and that should be considered part of the chronology of the book of Revelation as prophetic in nature. Thus we get the parallel view theology inserted into the mix, where no such parallel thought process is even intended. That goes beyond spiritual discernment, and incorporates human opinion under the guise of theology, which is not part of God's Word.

So if your only point is that I think Jesus was born after the 7th Trumpet, then that is a false accusation, and your only objection to what I have posted.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where have I posted the entire book is in chronological order?

You give that impression every time you try to criticize someone for not taking something in the book in chronological order. Since even you don't take the entire book in chronological order why would you criticize someone else for not taking all of it in chronological order? Seems pretty hypocritical of you.

I have posted that John wrote as he saw the events take place, and John wrote them down as they happened.

What does this even mean? Do you apply this to Revelation 11 and 12, also? Or is that the one exception to your rule?

You are literally claiming John jumped around in time and saw the events out of the order they occur in.

Not always, but at times, sure. So? Other prophetic books like Daniel and Isaiah are that way as well. It's typical of prophetic books to sometimes jump around in time.

Then you are saying every thing John saw was a literal event.

What does that mean? John saw symbolic things that represented literal things and events. That is obvious.

Then to top it off, you claim John saw history repeat itself 7 times.

So? What is wrong with that? The book of Revelation is all about the history of Jesus Christ and His church up to His second coming and beyond (new heavens and new earth) and it shows this from different angles.

Even though you claim there is only symbolism in the book, and one has to have discernment, it only takes common sense to see what actually happens.

I didn't say there is only symbolism in the book. You just make things up. Why do you do that? I've said many times that the book contains a lot of symbolism, but have never said "there is only symbolism in the book".

I have never posted that every symbolic "word picture" is in chronological order. I have repeatedly posted that the dragon in chapter 12, the sea beast in chapter 13, and the scarlet beast in chapter 17 is the same symbolic reference to the historical relationship between Satan and the image of Daniel 2, with the 6th kingdom being from the Reformation until the Second Coming and the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, and that Satan, the 7th head is an 8th kingdom. The last two "heads" not found in Daniel 2. So how could history repeat itself 3 times in chronological order? Your false accusation is just your way of avoiding any actual discussion on the topic and to force all your points on me personally. John incorporates parenthetical descriptions to further explain an event or why an event is taking place. These parenthetical explanations fit in between the chronological order of events, but they certainly do not have to fit exactly in the chronology of the events taking place. A few parenthetical observations cover the same events as the actual set of chronological sets of the four major events. These four events happen in chronological order, the Seals, the first 6 Trumpets, the 7 Thunders, then the 7th Trumpet, and last of all, if necessary, the 7 vials of God's wrath.

The symbolism of the 7 heads is not an event that takes place in the order of the book. Many want to say that each mention is a different period of history, and that should be considered part of the chronology of the book of Revelation as prophetic in nature. Thus we get the parallel view theology inserted into the mix, where no such parallel thought process is even intended. That goes beyond spiritual discernment, and incorporates human opinion under the guise of theology, which is not part of God's Word.

So if your only point is that I think Jesus was born after the 7th Trumpet, then that is a false accusation, and your only objection to what I have posted.

I have not accused you of believing that. I simply used Revelation 11 and 12 as an example to show that Revelation is not always in chronological order. So, if it's not all in chronlogical order there, as you agree is the case, why can't there be other places in the book where it's not all in chronological order from one chapter to the next?

 

[Timtofly]

You give that impression every time you try to criticize someone for not taking something in the book in chronological order. Since even you don't take the entire book in chronological order why would you criticize someone else for not taking all of it in chronological order? Seems pretty hypocritical of you.


What does this even mean? Do you apply this to Revelation 11 and 12, also? Or is that the one exception to your rule?


Not always, but at times, sure. So? Other prophetic books like Daniel and Isaiah are that way as well. It's typical of prophetic books to sometimes jump around in time.


What does that mean? John saw symbolic things that represented literal things and events. That is obvious.


So? What is wrong with that? The book of Revelation is all about the history of Jesus Christ and His church up to His second coming and beyond (new heavens and new earth) and it shows this from different angles.


I didn't say there is only symbolism in the book. You just make things up. Why do you do that? I've said many times that the book contains a lot of symbolism, but have never said "there is only symbolism in the book".


I have not accused you of believing that. I simply used Revelation 11 and 12 as an example to show that Revelation is not always in chronological order. So, if it's not all in chronlogical order there, as you agree is the case, why can't there be other places in the book where it's not all in chronological order from one chapter to the next?

Revelation is in chronological order. To say otherwise is pointless. Is all the symbolism part of the chronological order? No it is not. The birth of Jesus is not an event that is part of the chronological order. Was Jesus born prior to the Babylonian captivity? Babylon is one of the heads of the beast mentioned 3 times in the book by different names. Was Jesus born during the historical parenthetical? Yes He was.

To say Revelation 12 has to chronologically follow chapter 11 or the book is not in chronological order is being hypocritical. You yourself have pointed out chapters were added later and not inspired as part of the text.

If John is not seeing the events that take place at time of the Second Coming, and the events after the Second Coming, then you all can just make up whatever order you care to, and argue for all eternity on who is right or wrong.

Because any order you make up is your own private opinion, or another person's private opinion that many may agree with.

But as you see, not everyone is going to agree on your order, because it is just as wrong as their arrangement. The point of putting it in writing is so there is no argument over the order as given.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation is in chronological order.

Tim, the events revealed in Revelation have to be put into chronological order according to the time frames given in Revelation, and when the the abomination of desolation is setup to begin the Great Tribulation.

The time frames are these....

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, the events revealed in Revelation have to be put into chronological order according to the time frames given in Revelation, and when the the abomination of desolation is setup to begin the Great Tribulation.

The time frames are these....


View attachment 46118

The AoD does not start out the timeframe of anything written in Revelation. That is your private opinion.

Do you even know what verse in Revelation mentions something closely resembling an AoD. Jesus never put a time frame with the AoD in the Olivet Discourse.

Jesus said: "if you see this take place flee". Not that one would suffer tribulation if they did not flee, or would start to have great tribulation after they see this AoD.

Jesus never gave the reason to flee. He just said "flee".

Think about what happened when Nebuchadnezzar set up that first image, ie the one from his dream. Had they been warned to flee, some mat have. Those at that time had to bow down to the image. Had any one fled, they would have either gotten away, and it never stated people were hunted down. From the narrative, all bowed except the 3 Hebrew children who had always been a conscientious rejectors of the kings demands. And we see that even though they were cast into the furnace, that literal killed those who cast them in, they did not physically die, but were in direct fellowship with Jesus Christ.

A solid reason to flee was so people at the time could make a choice without being coerced either way. No one at that time will have strong faith. They will not be like thev3 Hebrew children. They won't even be killed. You are missing the whole point of being beheaded. They need to flee so they can choose to be beheaded instead of choosing to take the mark. Satan is not handing out the mark. God is handing out the mark, because people are choosing at this point to reprobate themselves just to live, like Esau sold his birthright for something to eat in a hurry. The choice is to take the mark and physically live, or chop one's head off to gain eternal life. Or put it is this way, to reject God's escape plan and give up their physical existence, not knowing what will happen, or prefer to keep enjoying sin, even if it leaves them eternally dead and miserable.

Satan's 42 months is not Jacob's trouble, nor a time of trouble never before seen on earth. Sin cannot get much worse than it already has been. Those 42 months are just the flesh doing what it wants without God's restrictions and judgment. The wrath of God is not even poured out, until after the 42 months are over.

You don't even have when the AoD starts nor any verse in Revelation that speaks to that event.

If you did, you may realize that what people are looking for as some antichrist figure is the AoD itself. But you all are waiting for an AC to be a sign, when the only sign is the Second Coming itself. People will know who Jesus is, and will still let Satan deceive them, just like Eve was deceived and she knew who God was face to face.

Many claim Jeaus is not on the earth because:

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

This does not prove Jesus will not be on the earth, because that happened during His earthly ministry as Messiah. Jesus will be sitting as King on a throne, and Satan will be sending out His own false christs to lead humanity astray.

The Second Coming per Zechariah 14 sets off Jacob's trouble, because that is the final harvest of all Jacob's descendants. All will be removed from the earth by the 6th Trumpet. And Jacob's trouble is what all call the GT.

There is really only one thing that gets between a soul and God's Covenant with mankind. That one thing is the selfish flesh of Adam's dead corruptible body. So the reason this is the greatest trouble ever is because at the Second Coming, God is present, and the flesh is threatened, and the soul is acutely made aware of how much that flesh comes between them and God. Then to top it off, this is the end of the selfish flesh, and the end of death is the point the trouble is at it's greatest. The 42 months given to Satan will be a repreave, albeit a short one, so the flesh will be at it's worse, not feeling as threatened, as when face to face with Jesus as the Atonement Covenant.

Jacob's trouble does not just start at the Second Coming or the first Trumpet. That is only the beginning of God against physical Jacob. Jacob's trouble grows more and more each day, as Israel is seen as less favorable from every action against her, and by her.

 

[Douggg]

Do you even know what verse in Revelation mentions something closely resembling an AoD. Jesus never put a time frame with the AoD in the Olivet Discourse.

Jesus referenced that Daniel spoke of the abomination of desolation.

The image that the false prophet has the people of the world make will be the abomination of desolation, in Revelation 13:14-15.

Jesus never gave the reason to flee. He just said "flee".

Jesus gave the reason to flee in Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus referenced that Daniel spoke of the abomination of desolation.

The image that the false prophet has the people of the world make will be the abomination of desolation, in Revelation 13:14-15.


Jesus gave the reason to flee in Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus said there would be trouble, but all over. No one can flee from trouble, nor physical death. They are fleeing from being coerced by Satan's policies. They are fleeing so they won't have to bow down to Satan's tyranny of immorality.

If you are using the Olivet Discourse as your timeline why did Jesus mention the parable of the fig tree last? Should all the above have already happened, even the Second Coming, before 1948? We would be already past the end by now.

John gave us the Seals. After they are opened, he next saw the Trumpets. All the events in the Seals were accomplished prior to the 1st Trumpet. The 144k were sealed between the 6th and 7th Seal in preparation for the Trumpet events. They will be on the earth during this time of judgement. Yet we see the church in heaven before the 7th Seal is opened.


Then we see, between the 6th Trumpet and the 7th Trumpet, there are 7 Thunders. Should we just arrange these events and move them around to make them fit our human understanding? The AoD is not even set up, until the midst of the week of days of the 7th Trumpet. So all the other events happen way before the AoD is set up. If it is even set up at all.

In Revelation 11 we are given the time of the 2 witnesses. That time would run in conjunction with the other 3.5 years found after chapter 11. There is no time defined as 3.5 years for there to be a "first half" as you allege.

What events and times being referred to in chapter 12, has to be taken in context, but the event of Satan cast out of heaven should not be historical but in relation to the Trumpets that already sounded, that is all 7 of them. No Trumpets have sounded as of today, no matter how much most people claim some have already sounded. Because if they had, the GT would be much longer than 3.5 years, but would cover most of the time between the Cross and now. That would make the timeframes given in chapter 12 useless. The book as being historical over the last 2 millennia would also make the Olivet Discourse pointless, as no one would live that length of time.

The first length of 1260 days happened in the first century, no? Did Israel flee as they were told when the Roman armies came to stop the Civil War? If verse 6 happened in 70AD, how can verse 7 happen in 30AD? Why would John backtrack 40 years? Also when were the angels loosed from chains of darkness prior to the birth of Christ. What days of judgment happened between the OT and the NT? We can see the first woe, at the 5th Trumpet, as the angels loosed from the chains if darkness. They were on the earth for at least 5 months, and now have made their way to heaven, by the time of the 7th Trumpet. So this war is in conjunction with the days of the 7th Trumpet. In the midst of a week of days, they are cast out of heaven, and literally only have 3.5 days until Satan is bound in the pit.

So why is there 42 months or another 1260 days mentioned if Satan only has 3.5 days left? That is when God confirms the Atonement Covenant with the many. That is, makes it strong, for those who will be beheaded. Those beheaded are not part of this:

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

The remnant of redeemed Israel, the sheep of Matthew 25, go to the sea of glass. Jesus and the 144k are found on heavenly mount zion. That is when Satan sets up the AoD and is given 100% control of the earth as the 8th king of the 8th kingdom for 3.5 years. That is the same time as the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses. They are killed by Satan after the 42 months end, and lay dead in Jerusalem for the last 3.5 days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Those 3.5 days are described in chapter 16 as when the 7 vials are poured out, and end with the same earthquake found in chapter 11.

Those beheaded do overcome Satan and referenced in Revelation 12:11

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

They chose to be beheaded instead of the mark, because God extended time to confirm their standing as elect in the Atonement Covenant. And the offer of salvation represented by the daily sacrifices was taken away. They did not receive salvation until the moment their heads were chopped off.

That is why Jesus said to flee in Matthew 24. So they would not be coerced either way to take the mark or chop their head off. It needed to be of their own free will and decision to make. They could not choose salvation, because that option had stopped and been removed from the table. That is why a post rapture is wrong. The only two people raptured are the two witnesses, and only after life returns t the same body. They don't even get a different body per Paul. Which means they already had a permanent body, which could only die when God said it could die. And like Jesus, the same glorious body came back to life. So they cannot represent the church on the earth, as prior to physical death, as they had already changed from corruptible to incorruptible before the 42 weeks even started, back at the 6th Seal, if not sooner? If they are Moses and Elijah, they had that glorious body without corruption on the mount of Transfiguration.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation is in chronological order. To say otherwise is pointless.

To say so is pointless when we all know that Revelation 11 and 12 is not in chronological order, which even you agree with. You are unable to explain how Revelation 11 and 12 are not in chronological order but the rest of the book has to be in chronological order for some reason.

Is all the symbolism part of the chronological order? No it is not. The birth of Jesus is not an event that is part of the chronological order. Was Jesus born prior to the Babylonian captivity? Babylon is one of the heads of the beast mentioned 3 times in the book by different names. Was Jesus born during the historical parenthetical? Yes He was.

LOL. What are you talking about? Jesus's birth and ascension are written about in Revelation 12. You can't just brush that aside.

To say Revelation 12 has to chronologically follow chapter 11 or the book is not in chronological order is being hypocritical.

LOL. No, it's hypocritical to acknowledge that Revelation 11 and 12 aren't in chronological order while the rest, for some unknown reason, have to be in chronological order. But, keep the laughs coming. Do you ever read your own posts? You should. Even you might laugh at how ridiculous your comments are.

You yourself have pointed out chapters were added later and not inspired as part of the text.

What in the world are you talking about here? When and where did I ever do that?

If John is not seeing the events that take place at time of the Second Coming, and the events after the Second Coming, then you all can just make up whatever order you care to, and argue for all eternity on who is right or wrong.

Because any order you make up is your own private opinion, or another person's private opinion that many may agree with.

But as you see, not everyone is going to agree on your order, because it is just as wrong as their arrangement. The point of putting it in writing is so there is no argument over the order as given.

The book of Daniel, for example, is clearly not all in chronological order, so why would your last statement here apply to the book of Revelation and not to Daniel? Sorry, but your man made rules make no sense and no one is obligated to abide by them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus said there would be trouble, but all over. No one can flee from trouble, nor physical death.

Matthew 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Where did He say there would be trouble "all over" when He said people would need to flee? Is Judea "all over"?

 

[Douggg]

Matthew 24:15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Where did He say there would be trouble "all over" when He said people would need to flee? Is Judea "all over"?

In Jerusalem is where the Great Tribulation will start with the abomination of desolation being set up there on the temple mount.

But it will quickly spread to the rest of the world. Verses 21-22 implies that the great tribulation will be worldwide.


21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Davy]

Sadly D, you are again showing your lack of understanding.

Satan will be cast down to the earth in around 20 years' time when he is judged in heaven with the other heavenly hosts and as soon as he arrives on the face of the earth (Rev 20:1-3) he is immediately imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years. Then After he is released from the Bottomless Pit, (Rev 20:7-10) he realises that he has little time to achieve his goal of becoming a deity king over all of the peoples of the earth. Satan initially goes after the nation of Israel (Rev 12:13-16 to wipe it off the face of the earth but his plan cannot be executed as Israel is swept away by God into the desert and is protected. Then Satan goes after the Christians who keep to the Commandments of God and holds to the testimony of Jesus. (Rev 12:17)

You have forgotten that embedded within the story told in Rev 12, there is a 1,000 year period which we are informed about in other scriptural passages that must be considered when reading Rev 12.

Goodbye.

PS: - my 7,000th post.

Really Funny! Not what God's Word says at all.

 

[Jay Ross]

Really Funny! Not what God's Word says at all.

Davy, I am all ears to hear your correction and to see what the possible error that you see is.

 

[Davy]

Davy, I am all ears to hear your correction and to see what the possible error that you see is.

Easy. Revelation 20:1-3 is not about Satan being 'judged' and cast to the earth. Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced. Instead, Rev.20:1-3 is about Satan being put in chains and cast into his pit prison so as to not be able to deceive the nations for a thousand years. (That small part you got right.)

Revelation 12:7 forward is about Satan being cast out of heaven down to the earth with his angels, and is tied to the latter 3.5 years of the Dan.9:27 "one week" called the "great tribulation" by Jesus. And all those events are PRIOR to Rev.20. Rev.20:1-3 happens when Jesus returns.

And to say in 20 years that will happen is to try and do date setting for Christ's future return. No man knows the day or hour of Christ's future coming.

Your reference to Rev.20 about the time when Satan will establish himself as king over the nations is NOT about the future time after Jesus has returned. It is about the very 'end' of this present world before... Jesus returns.

Nor is the nation of Israel swept away (i.e., like some fake rapture) but the majority of them which still reject Jesus Christ will instead WORSHIP SATAN who is coming in place of Christ.

And your statement that the "thousand years" of Rev.20 is included in the Revelation 12:7-17 events is yet another one of your terrible fabrications away from the written Scripture.

 

[Douggg]

Easy. Revelation 20:1-3 is not about Satan being 'judged' and cast to the earth. Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced. Instead, Rev.20:1-3 is about Satan being put in chains and cast into his pit prison so as to not be able to deceive the nations for a thousand years. (That small part you got right.)

Revelation 12:7 forward is about Satan being cast out of heaven down to the earth with his angels, and is tied to the latter 3.5 years of the Dan.9:27 "one week" called the "great tribulation" by Jesus. And all those events are PRIOR to Rev.20. Rev.20:1-3 happens when Jesus returns.

And to say in 20 years that will happen is to try and do date setting for Christ's future return. No man knows the day or hour of Christ's future coming.

Your reference to Rev.20 about the time when Satan will establish himself as king over the nations is NOT about the future time after Jesus has returned. It is about the very 'end' of this present world before... Jesus returns.

Nor is the nation of Israel swept away (i.e., like some fake rapture) but the majority of them which still reject Jesus Christ will instead WORSHIP SATAN who is coming in place of Christ.

And your statement that the "thousand years" of Rev.20 is included in the Revelation 12:7-17 events is yet another one of your terrible fabrications away from the written Scripture.

I agree with just about everything you said, except this part...

"Nor is the nation of Israel swept away (i.e., like some fake rapture) but the majority of them which still reject Jesus Christ will instead WORSHIP SATAN who is coming in place of Christ."

The Jews will not worship Satan, but will refuse to worship the abomination of desolation, and the beast-king. And because of that in Revelation 12:14, they will be persecuted.

 

[Davy]

I agree with just about everything you said, except this part...

"Nor is the nation of Israel swept away (i.e., like some fake rapture) but the majority of them which still reject Jesus Christ will instead WORSHIP SATAN who is coming in place of Christ."

The Jews will not worship Satan, but will refuse to worship the abomination of desolation, and the beast-king. And because of that in Revelation 12:14, they will be persecuted.

Well, yes they will, that is the Orthodox Jews that still reject Jesus Christ.

Satan will be the coming beast-king, to Jerusalem for the end of this world. You just don't realize it yet.

The persecution upon the unbelieving Jews, and the deceived (including deceived believers on Christ) will be this...

Rev 13:4-9
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

They worshipped who?? "the dragon", another title for Satan per Rev.12:9.


5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Those above events for the end were first written of back in Daniel 7 and 8.


8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
KJV

That applies only to Christ's elect that have been given eyes to see, and ears to hear (recall Matthew 13). It does not... include the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25. That means... many brethren will fall away and worship that "dragon", deceived along with the unbelieving Jews.