Revelation 11 and Revelation 12

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Zao is life

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Antiochus was not time of the end.
Antiochus was not time of the end.
He was the time of the end of the prophecy regarding everything that was written regarding the four beasts of Daniel - he fulfilled all of what was written about him in Daniel chs. 7, 8, 11, and 12. One day you will realize that the time of the end of that period is a foreshadowing of the time of the end when Christ returns.

The apostasy and lawlessness of the majority of the Jews that took place at the time of Antiochus IV and the abomination of desolation in the holy place of the second temple is the foreshadowing of the apostasy and lawlessness written about in 2 Thessalonians 2. It's not in the holy place of the second temple where the abomination will appear again. It's in the holy place of the third temple, which @Timtofly quite by accident pointed out, is the body of Christ - the only sanctuary of God where the Spirit of God dwells.

The worship of Christ is going to be replaced in the churches with worship of the man of sin and son of perdition. You'll probably find the communion of bread and wine being partaken of in honor of that evil one, just as the Jews began sacrificing pigs to Zeus in the temple. Maybe they will start drinking his blood when the coming apostasy occurs. Whatever it is or whatever form of worship it takes, it's going to be an abomination of desolation taking place in the holy place (let the reader understand).

It's high time the saints stopped blaming the Jews for every evil ever done or that will ever be done by the people of God, assuming it will be the unbelieving Jews and not the saints.​
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Satan is found at that battle in the very next verses. The FP and the beast are cast into the LOF, while Satan is bound in the pit. During the thousand years the FP and beast are in the LOF, Satan is in the pit.

Some of us don't feel the need to correct the chronology of the verses and take them out of context to fit a certain eschatological view.

After all are dead at Armageddon, Satan is bound, and some are physically raised from the dead. Simple as reading in the order John saw the events happen.

If you can link chapter 16 with 19, what went wrong in the very next verses after chapter 19? John is still talking about Satan and his defeat at Armageddon, then he is bound in the pit.
As usual, you are very difficult to follow. So, just tell me this. Do you believe Revelation 16:12-16 and Revelation 19:19 are referring to the same battle? If so, why are you trying to criticize me about chronology when you are doing the same thing I am with those verses? I just happen to believe that Revelation 20:7-9 is also about the same battle and you choose to believe that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically instead. Yet, we know that not all of the book of Revelation is in chronological order. Just look at Revelation 11 and 12 for a good example where the things written there are not all in chronological order. Yet, for some reason,, you can't allow for the possibility of that being the case anywhere else in the book.
 

ewq1938

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There is not a specific scripture as such. But there are the descriptions for each of those five stages.


They aren't stages where he is one thing then changes into the next. They are simply different names and titles for the same person in the same role. Jesus also has a bunch of names and titles but not multiple changes etc.
 

Douggg

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They aren't stages where he is one thing then changes into the next. They are simply different names and titles for the same person in the same role. Jesus also has a bunch of names and titles but not multiple changes etc.
Is being a Senator of the United States the same role as being the President of the United States ? John F. Kennedy and Barak Obama, for example were both.

The 5 stages are more than just different names and titles for the person.
 
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ewq1938

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Is being a Senator of the United States the same role as being the President of the United States ? John F. Kennedy and Barak Obama, for example were both.

The 5 stages are more than just different names and titles for the person.


Yet you admitted, "There is not a specific scripture as such."


Zero scriptures say anything about one person changing into these different stages or roles. The truth is there is this one person in the end times that will rule the world and he is called many dif things like antichrist or beast or man of sin etc.
 

Douggg

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The truth is there is this one person in the end times that will rule the world and he is called many dif things like antichrist or beast or man of sin etc.
.... called different things because there are different stages the person goes through on the way to his demise in the lake of fire.

Different stages of life applies to everyone. And follows a timeline.

baby, then child, then teenager, then adult, then middle age, then senior.
 

ewq1938

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.... called different things because there are different stages the person goes through on the way to his demise in the lake of fire.

Different stages of life applies to everyone. And follows a timeline.

baby, then child, then teenager, then adult, then middle age, then senior.

There is no scriptural evidence of this happening such as your claim the little horn eventually becomes the beast king. The little horn is a king already without any claimed change.
 

Douggg

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There is no scriptural evidence of this happening such as your claim the little horn eventually becomes the beast king. The little horn is a king already without any claimed change.
king of what ?
 

ewq1938

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king of what ?


Of the ten horned beast. The horns are metaphor for kings.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
 

Douggg

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Of the ten horned beast. The horns are metaphor for kings.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The little horn stage is a king of the fourth kingdom over ten other kings of that kingdom. The Roman Empire in the end times.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

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The Antichrist stage is being the King of Israel, instead of the rightful King of Israel - Jesus.

Mark 15:32 - Christ the King of Israel.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
 

Timtofly

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One thing that has to be factored in I guess, is this. People will be in real bodies including Christ, after Christ returns. Does everyone just float around in the air having no tangible place to sit, to rule from, etc? Is this earth going to be like one big ghost planet where there are no longer any structures of any kind, such as houses, buildings, etc? I'm sure everyone remembers those Casper the ghost cartoons. Is that what it's going to be like in the future, there being no need for tangible structures, such as thrones for anyone to sit upon, because just like Casper the Ghost, one can't sit upon tangible objects, they penetrate through them instead?
For one, meeting in the air is God's display to those on earth the redemption of mankind is complete. That is why it is not post trib. The living on the earth will see what they missed out on. The door to the church will have slammed shut, just like the door on the ark was slammed shut. Then the church will keep enjoying Paradise for the next 1,000 years, like the church has enjoyed Paradise in physical bodies for the last 1994 years.

The 5th Seal is this display in the air.

Then the 6th Seal is opened and the baptism of fire. Jesus and the angels will continue to the earth. Now Paul said it all happens so fast that will those on earth even notice? Pretty sure that no matter how long it takes they will know, because they are hiding and asking:

"said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This does not mean trouble is over. This is an indication that trouble is just beginning.

Isaiah 65 declares what the earth is like after Jesus makes all things new.

"But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them."

Those redeemed after the 6th Seal/Second Coming will live on the earth and build back thousands of cities. This would be the 144k, the sheep of Matthew 25, and the wheat of Matthew 13.

No one has been Casper ghostly like since the OT redeemed walked out of their graves with permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They would have ascended with Jesus on Sunday morning. Lazarus would have also ascended, as he was only resurrected about 10 days ahead of the rest. His resurrection was the final straw that caused the arrest and trial of Jesus. Jesus told Mary:

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

The gospels don't mention the OT redeemed but Paul did. Ephesians 4:8-10

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things."

This is not the ascension from the mount of Olives. Paul said when Jesus ascended upon high, that morning after talking to Mary, was when those in Abraham's bosom were taken to Paradise, including Lazarus, because he walked out of his grave like the others did when Jesus spoke. Jesus descended into Abraham's bosom, set the captives free instantly. They walked out of their graves the instant he said, it is finished, and then he descended and later ascended to God on Sunday morning. Those few buried in Jerusalem talked with many until Sunday morning when their resurrection was official and they entered Paradise.

These are the firstfruits in their order per 1 Corinthians 15. At the 5th Seal, those alive on earth will ascend as they change bodies, to meet those in the air coming from heaven already with physical bodies. Those not on earth even if they just died hours before the 5th Seal already get a physical body to enter heaven. So some could have been in Paradise for only a few hours missing the rapture from the earth but coming in the air first to see the rapture happen.
 

Timtofly

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I don't know what Bible you read but Jesus did not say that the abomination of desolation would appear after the second coming - it will occur before the second coming.

Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand). Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains. For then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.

And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
So will Israel become a nation after the Second Coming?

Revelation has the order as it happens. Matthew 24 has the order in reverse from the end up until Israel becomes a nation.

Otherwise John is contradicting the Olivet Discourse or people change the book of Revelation to fit their thousands of flavors of the end times.
 
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Timtofly

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Yes. The third temple has already been built by God. It's Bishop and High Priest is Christ. If the Jews build another building and call it "The Third Temple of God" it won't be the third Temple of God, the sanctuary where God dwells. The Jews will be calling it that, but it will be a misnomer.

An abomination in the holy place can only occur in the sanctuary (Temple) of God where God's Spirit is present. Otherwise it's no more or less of an idol than the gods in Hindu temples.

Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are. -- 1 Corinthians 3:16-17.

Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that the Day of Christ shall not come unless there first comes the apostasy, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God. -- 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.

And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." 2 Corinthians 6:16.
Once again, the church is not on the earth after the Second Coming, so we will have to call this the 4th Temple, after your 3rd Temple is raptured to Paradise.


Jesus will sit on a throne in this Temple in Jerusalem during the Trumpets and Thunders. Then and only if time is extended, will Satan sit on that throne as the 8th king of the 8th world kingdom.

The church is not the throne of the 8th kingdom. That does not even make sense. Was the church the throne of the 4th Roman Empire? Was the church the throne of the 5th ten toes some call the papacy? If so, then that was an apostate church without the Holy Spirit ever, because the church was in Jesus as the stone cut off without hands, that destroyed the 5th kingdom at the Reformation, and went on to fill the whole earth. And Satan has never sat in that stone, because that was never a government that ruled over the earth.


Has the church been the dead 6th kingdom since the Reformation?


The church is not the 7th Kingdom at the 7th Trumpet, because Jesus is the 7th King, and the church was already removed from the earth and in Paradise.

You can call the church the 3rd Temple all you want to, but the church never had governmental control of the entire world, and because millions may have turned away in apostasy, Satan was never in control and Salvation never extinguished to the point no one could get saved. The church has always had growth on the local level wherever the church takes root, and that is how it fills the earth. There is no central governmental authority controlling the church.

You cannot just claim Satan takes over every human body. That is not how government works. That is how bad theology permeates human understanding.

Also, the verse does not say "before the day the Lord comes".

Paul states before the Day of the Lord comes. Before the Millennium Reign, Satan will be allowed to sit in that Temple, certainly not after the Day of the Lord ends.
 
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Zao is life

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So will Israel become a nation after the Second Coming?
Israel became a nation when Jacob's wives gave birth to twelve sons.
Revelation has the order as it happens. Matthew 25 has the order in reverse from the end up until Israel becomes a nation.
So Matthew 25 starts with the return of Christ and works back to the time Benjamin was born - the last of Jacob's twelve sons.
Otherwise John is contradicting the Olivet Discourse or people change the book of Revelation to fit their thousands of flavors of the end times.
You have a thousand flavors times ten thousand in your end times all by yourself though, Tim, so to be fair, together with everyone else's flavors that's a thousand times a thousand and ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of flavors of the end times.
 

Timtofly

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As usual, you are very difficult to follow. So, just tell me this. Do you believe Revelation 16:12-16 and Revelation 19:19 are referring to the same battle? If so, why are you trying to criticize me about chronology when you are doing the same thing I am with those verses? I just happen to believe that Revelation 20:7-9 is also about the same battle and you choose to believe that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically instead. Yet, we know that not all of the book of Revelation is in chronological order.
Obviously you don't like it when another human has a different chronological order than you do?

That is why it is wrong to make the claim that Revelation is not in chronological order. That literally means it can be in any order each person chooses, whether others like it or not.

So if you change the chronological order and say there are parallel camera views then others are not going to like that nor accept that, and you won't like nor accept their chronological opinion either.

Which means you also don't like the order John wrote, because you make the claim it is not in chronological order. Even though the literary style is chronological. "After this" is a common theme.

Revelation 11 is in 2 parts. Like chapter 7 the chapter has an explanation of the previous mentioned event. Chapter 7 is talking about something in regards to the 6th Seal. There is a group of redeemed on the earth, the 144k, and a group in heaven. That is a phenomenon that is true at the same time after the 6th Seal is opened. Then we see the 7th Seal opened. You would call that a parenthetical observation in regards to the 6th Seal.


The 10th chapter was supposed to cover the 7 Thunders, but God interrupted the process of writing and John was told not to write what he saw. That should be obvious that the 6th Trumpet was over and no other explanation in the book would cover the 6th Trumpet, because John had moved on to the 7 Thunders, and the 6th Trumpet and any events were over before the 1st Thunder sounded.

So now we have a parenthetical at the start of the 11th chapter. Because no event happened other than the 7th Thunder, and we are not told any details, so should not presume the 2 witness are part of the 7th Thunder, even though that is plausible.

But we also see that instead of seeing something happen in chapter 10, John is told some prophetic information about the 7th Trumpet. So it is plausible to say the 2 witness are also prophetic actions involving the 7th Trumpet. We also can see that the 7th Trumpet includes more time than just sounding and then stopping. There are days surrounding the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, or the 7th Trumpet itself could sound for days on end non stop. Meaning that once it starts many things will happen before it can stop sounding as noted there is a definite end of time or the experience offered when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. So the parenthetical of the 2 witnesses also describes events in the days of the 7th Trumpet. So that is not out of chronological order, it is just two views of the events of the 7th Trumpet. It is my opinion since not stated that the 7th Trumpet starts in chapter 11 just after a parenthetical describing God's involvement during the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Trumpet does not stop until after Armageddon, and chapters 12, 13, 17, 18, and 19 show Satan's involvement in the 7th Trumpet.

To get us back into the chronological narrative, John does remind us that 2 woes have past, but that does not mean the two witnesses already happened. It means we are now ready to actually have the 7th Trumpet sound.

The last 6 vial events happen in the last 3.5 days of the 7th Trumpet, since the parenthetical of the witnesses have them lying in a state of death for those last 3.5 days between the 42 months given to Satan and the battle itself. The two witnesses are killed after the 42 months are over, mentioned in chapter 13. Obviously the 2 witnesses and Satan's activity happen side by side, but John deals with one in chapter 11, and the other in chapter 13.

So when the 7th Trumpet sounds in chapter 11 the next chronological event is the binding of Satan, and the resurrection of those beheaded in the prior 42 months before the 2 witnesses are killed. Armageddon is still in the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The last hour of 7th Trumpet is the one hour the ten kings join Satan to fight the Lamb. If they win, obviously Satan promised them a thousand years of their own kingdom. They have no kingdoms until they can defeat God.

Chapter 12 is the historical introduction of Satan. John sees no event, just symbolism of the statue of Daniel 2 as a red dragon instead of an image of mixed metals. Now we see that Satan was also an influence and connected with the first 6 kingdoms that lead us to the 7th Trumpet and Jesus as the declared 7th King of the 7th World Empire. Satan is cast out of heaven during the 7th Trumpet. The times given in that chapter do not necessarily have to be future nor even related to the chronological order of the rest of the book. The chapter is an historical background. Now when Satan is cast out, that is the third woe, and does relate to the events in the 7th Trumpets time frame. Remember, I think the Trumpet is nonstop until God is finished.

I also think the 7th Trumpet and the rest of the descriptions about Satan's empire interpret Daniel 9:27 for us. We do not have to come up with any explanation for Daniel 9:27 other than what John writes in Revelation 13. The confirmation of the Atonement Covenant between God and adamkind takes place in the midst of the days of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet both declares the Kingdom of Jesus, the Prince to come, but also the completion of the punishment of sin and death itself.

The Millennium will have no need of the Atonement even more so than the animal sacrifices of the Law. Because Adam's disobedience will have been reversed, and the punishment withdrawn. But before the Day of the Lord can start, Satan is allowed to demonstrate what his kingdom would like like without the Atonement Covenant. That is what the Abomination of Desolation is talking about. The Law was removed at the Cross. So the daily sacrifices stopped in the AoD would be that even the Cross and redemption are taken away, not just the OT Covenant. The NT will be taken away as that would be the only daily covering at that point in time.

The only reason time is extended though, is not for Satan. God is showing us that even though Satan has 100% control, that even then humans would be willing to chop off their head as testimony to Jesus Christ, even though there is no salvation by faith available. If one really believes that the daily sacrifice stops then that means the Second Birth stops and is no longer available. We are not talking about reinstating the OT. We are talking about Jesus announce King of the world,xand then 3.5 days later, in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet, God extends the deadline and Satan is given 42 months of Abomination of Desolation. The only witness will be two humans who can not be killed, and the only redemption offered is to cut off one's head, ending one's selfish existence on earth in faith they will be resurrected at some point in time. Those on earth may not even know at that point it will be 42 months long. If the church is gone, the Holy Spirit is gone, then why not the Word of God as well? They will be so deceived by Satan at that point, they may not even accept the Bible, even if they could read from the Bible.

That is why there is no post trib rapture nor Second Coming at the battle of Armageddon. Jesus was already on the earth and declared King at the 7th Trumpet. Now that may go into way more detail than what Paul declares as the Second Coming, but John saw more than any other person ever did.
 

Timtofly

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Just look at Revelation 11 and 12 for a good example where the things written there are not all in chronological order. Yet, for some reason,, you can't allow for the possibility of that being the case anywhere else in the book.
Jesus does leave the earth with the 144k as that is what Revelation 14 shows. Once again we have a split view like chapter 7. One view is if Satan gets 42 months. The last half is without time extended and the 7th Trumpet stops at the end of the week. Verses 1-13 show what will happen at Armageddon. From verse 14 on is if the week is not split in two halves. Chapter 15 shows us the final harvest of the sheep and wheat during the Trumpets and Thunders waiting on the sea of glass until the 42 months are over. However I think they are waiting throughout the tribulation. Once they have been judged and redeemed they are no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, so they don't hang around on the earth, but are brought by an angel immediately to the sea of glass once redeemed. That could relate to the two times mentioned in chapter 12. They are without harm prior to the 7th Trumpet, and remain without harm until they return at Armageddon on white horses.

Obviously you have your opinion for every event and every symbolism which to you and many others just represents spiritual truths and has nothing to do with the judgment of the earth at the Second Coming, thus my post can just be ignored as my opinion. But I am just pointing out how it would happen if you don't change what John wrote into some spiritual imagination of the last 2,000 years, having nothing to do with the Second Coming at all.

I am not changing the chronological order at all as there is no need to do any changes. I see in chapter 12 several timed events both around 3.5 years in length. At least that is what people claim. 1260 days before Satan is cast out, and a time, times, and half a time as these two events. I don't really have an answer why mentioned twice if the same time period or why mentioned in conjunction with the birth of Christ. I don't have enough facts as we don't have the 7 Thunders given to us. But that still does not mean out of chronological order.
 

Timtofly

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Israel became a nation when Jacob's wives gave birth to twelve sons.

So Matthew 25 starts with the return of Christ and works back to the time Benjamin was born - the last of Jacob's twelve sons.

You have a thousand flavors times ten thousand in your end times all by yourself though, Tim, so to be fair, together with everyone else's flavors that's a thousand times a thousand and ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of flavors of the end times.
The problem with that, is that they ceased to even be a people with a homeland in 70AD, like the ten tribes did in 720BC. So no, Jesus is not talking about Jacob in Matthew 24 with the parable of the fig tree as when Jacob became Israel.

Pretty much all I have is Israel becomes a nation, the Second Coming, and the final harvest. Three flavors. Then the Day of the Lord sprinkled on top.

I am hoping the AoD does not happen. Does that mean I dropped a flavor on the ground?
 

Zao is life

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Once again, the church is not on the earth after the Second Coming, so we will have to call this the 4th Temple, after your 3rd Temple is raptured to Paradise.
Shucks and there I was believing John when he told me there would be a new earth that the saints will be living on and that the temple of God would be in their midst forever, who is the Lamb of God.
Jesus will sit on a throne in this Temple in Jerusalem during the Trumpets and Thunders.
One minute you have an antichrist sitting in a temple in Jerusalem and the next you have Christ sitting in the same temple.

It's all bizarre to me.
Then and only if time is extended, will Satan sit on that throne as the 8th king of the 8th world kingdom.
I give up. I'm not following you.

I admit, I'm not following you.
 

Douggg

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You have a thousand flavors times ten thousand in your end times all by yourself though, Tim, so to be fair, together with everyone else's flavors that's a thousand times a thousand and ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of flavors of the end times.
Zao, please go to the new thread I started on the time frames we have to work with.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Obviously you don't like it when another human has a different chronological order than you do?
LOL! What does that even mean? Sure, I'd prefer everyone agree with me, but I am okay with disagreement. The order of events in a book like Revelation and other prophetic books like Daniel and Isaiah has to be spiritually discerned. They are not a telling of events in chronological order from beginning to end.

That is why it is wrong to make the claim that Revelation is not in chronological order. That literally means it can be in any order each person chooses, whether others like it or not.
This is utter nonsense, which is the norm for you. Are Revelation 11 and 12 in chronological order? Absolutely not. Unless you think the birth of Christ and His ascension (referenced in Revelation 12:5) occurs after the seventh trumpet, which I'm sure you don't. But, keep on with your nonsense if you want.