Understanding what Sheol, Hell, Hades mean.

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Hobie

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",,,These witnesses all testify that sheol, or hell, in the Old Testament, has no reference whatever to this doctrine; that it signifies simply the state of the dead, the invisible world, without regard to their goodness or badness, their happiness or misery. The Old Testament doctrine of hell, therefore, is not the doctrine of endless punishment. It is not revealed in the Law of Moses. It is not revealed in the Old Testament....

Any one at all familiar with the writings of the ancient Greeks or Romans, cannot fail to note how often it is admitted by them that the national religions were the inventions of the legislator and the priest, for the purpose of governing and restraining the common people. Hence, all the early lawgivers claim to have had communications with the gods, who aided them in the preparation of their codes. Zoroaster claimed to have received his laws from a divine source; Lycurgus obtained his from Apollo, Minos of Crete from Jupiter, Numa of Rome from Egeria, Zaleucus from Minerva, &c. The object of this sacred fraud was to impress the minds of the multitude with religious awe, and command a more ready obedience on their part. Hence Augustine says, in his "City of God," "This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to deceive the people in their religion; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves knew to be idle fables; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society." B. iV 32.

Of course, in order to secure obedience, they were obliged to invent divine punishments for the disobedience of what they asserted to be divine laws. "Hence," says Bishop Warburton, "they enforced the belief of a future state of rewards and punishments by every sort of contrivance." And speaking of the addition of metempsychosis, or the transmigration of souls, he says: "This was an ingenious solution, invented by the Egyptian lawgivers, to remove all doubts concerning the moral attributes of God."

Egypt has been called the "Mother of Superstitions," and her whole religious history shows the propriety of the appellation. Greeks and Romans, Lawgivers and Philosophers, acknowledge their indebtedness to her in this respect, and freely credit her with the original invention of the fables and terrors of the invisible world; though it must be allowed that they have improved somewhat upon the hints given, and shown a wonderful inventive faculty of their own.

Dr. Good has a curious passage on the subject in hand, in his Book of Nature, which I must be permitted to introduce here. "It was believed in most countries," he says, "that this hell, hades, or invisible world, is divided into two very distinct and opposite regions, by a broad and impassable gulf; that the one is a seat of happiness, a paradise, or elysium, and the other a seat of misery, a gehenna, or tartarus; and that there is a supreme magistrate and an impartial tribunal belonging to the infernal shades, before which the ghosts must appear, and by which they are sentenced to the one or the other, according to the deeds done in the body. Egypt is said to have been the inventress of this important and valuable part of the tradition; and undoubtedly it is to be found in the earliest records of Egyptian history. But, from the wonderful conformity of its outlines to the parallel doctrines of the Scriptures, it is probable that it has a still higher origin, and that it constituted a part of the patriarchal creed, retained in a few channels, though forgotten or obliterated in others, and consequently that it was a divine communication in a very early age." 7

This last assertion is certainly a singular statement for a man of Dr. Good's learning and judgment. For, first, it does not conform at all to the doctrine of the Scriptures in regard to rewards and punishments, as our inquiry has fully shown. And, second, the patriarchal creed makes no mention of it, as far as we know; and if it made part of an early revelation, afterwards lost, it is reasonable to suppose that it would have been renewed again in the revelation to the Law of Moses.

Beside, if the Egyptians obtained it from any of the patriarchs, it must have been from Jacob or his descendants, after they went down into Egypt. It must have been a current doctrine, therefore, among the Israelites, and regarded by them as of divine authority; but this conclusion is shut off by the fact that Moses, though divinely commissioned as their teacher, rejects it from his law, and shows his unbelief and contempt for it by a studied and unbroken silence! Curious, indeed, if Dr. Good's supposition is correct. We find the doctrine in full bloom with the Egyptians, but not a trace of it among the early Hebrews. But, singularly enough, when, in after ages, the Jews had become corrupted, and had departed from the Law of Moses, we find the doctrine among them. And, what is very noteworthy, as the next chapter will show, its first appearance is in apocryphal books written by Egyptian Jews. So that the facts happen to be the very opposite of Dr. Good's theory; - instead of the Egyptians borrowing it from the Jews, the Jews borrowed it from the Egyptians.

In attempting to set out the Egyptian notions on the subject, it is difficult to choose between the conflicting accounts of the Greek writers, Herodotus, Diodorus Siculus, Plutarch, &c., as well as of the modern interpreters of the monumental hieroglyphics. Still, with regard to the main question, they are tolerably well agreed, though there is great diversity of opinion in respect to the details. It is plain enough, from their united testimony, that the whole matter of judgment after death, the rewards of a good life, and the punishments of a bad life, with all the formal solemnities of trial and condemnation, originated and was perfected among the Egyptians, according to the peculiar character of their mythology. From them it was borrowed by the Greeks, who made such changes and additions as fitted the system to the genius and circumstances of that people.

It would seem that each district of Egypt had what was called its "sacred lake," beyond which were the tombs and burial-places of the dead. Acherusia, the lake near Memphis, was the model probably for the rest, and appears to have furnished a general name for them.

When any one died, it was the duty of his relations, according to Diodorus, to notify the forty-two judges or assessors, whose office it was to decide upon the character of the deceased, and then to appoint the day for the funeral ceremonies and burial. When the day came, the body of the dead was carried in procession to the shore of the lake, from which it could not be removed till after the judgment. The forty-two judges, having been summoned, were in waiting at the place of embarkation, to receive the body, and enter on the trial. It was then lawful, for any person who thought proper, to bring charges against the deceased; and if it was proved that he had led an evil life, the judges condemned him for his wickedness, and refused him the privilege of burial, which was regarded as one of the greatest possible calamities. But if those accusing the dead failed to establish their accusations, they were subjected to the heaviest penalties.

If there was no accuser, or the charges were disproved, then his relations were allowed to pronounce the accustomed eulogy, praising his piety and goodness, celebrating his virtues, and declaring the excellent life which he had lived. This was followed by a prayer supplicating the gods of the under-world to receive him into the society of the blessed. Then came the acclamations of the multitude assembled on the occasion, who united in extolling the character of the dead, and in rejoicing that he was now going to join the virtuous in the regions of Amenti or Hades.

This over, the body was placed in the funeral boat, under the direction of Horus, the ferryman of the dead, and borne across the lake to its place of sepulture. This done, the ceremonies of the occasion closed.

The bodies of those who had been refused burial were carried back by the family, and the coffins set up against the wall of the house. The spirit could not be at rest until the body was buried. "The duration of this punishment was limited," says Wilkinson, "according to the extent of crimes of which the accused had been guilty. When the devotion of friends, aided by liberal donations in the service of religion, and the influential prayers of the priests, had sufficiently softened the otherwise inexorable nature of the gods, the period of this state of purgatory was doubtless shortened." 8

Beside this judgment on earth, it appears there was another after the dead entered the regions of Amenti or Hades. For what reason, we cannot say, except the judges of the invisible world were a kind of superior court, who examined the case anew, with the view of correcting any errors of the previous trial...."
 

Hobie

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"...Sir J.G. Wilkinson informs us that "the judgment scenes found in the tombs and on the papyri, sometimes represent the deceased conducted by Horus to the region of AmentI Cerberus is present as the guardian of the gates, near which the scales of justice were erected. Anubis, 'the director of the weight,' having placed a vase representing the good actions, or the heart of the deceased, in one scale, and the figure or emblem of truth in the other, proceeds to ascertain his claims for admission. If, on being 'weighed,' he is 'found wanting,' he is rejected; and Osiris, the judge of the dead, inclining the scepter in token of condemnation, pronounces judgment upon him, and condemns his soul to return to earth under the form of a pig, or some other unclean animal. Placed in a boat, it is removed, under the charge of two monkeys, from the precincts of Amenti, all communication with which is figuratively cut off by a man who hews away the earth with an ax after its passage; and the commencement of a new term of life is indicated by the monkeys, the emblems of Thoth, as Time. But if, when the sum of his deeds have been recorded, his virtues so far predominate as to entitle him to admission to the mansions of the blessed, Horus introduces him to Osiris." 9

It is with this judgment, at the point where the condemned soul is sent back again to the earth in the form of an animal, that the doctrine of transmigration seems to connect itself.

According to Herodotus, the Egyptians believed the soul would pass from one body to another, till it had performed the circuit of all animals, terrestrial, marine, and birds of the air; when it again takes up its abode in the human body. This transmigration it was supposed would fill up a period of three thousand years.

There is great diversity of opinion in regard to the particulars of this curious arrangement, but the leading idea appears to have been the punishment of the wicked; for the wicked only, according to some authorities, were subject to it, the good and pious being received immediately, on the burial of the body, into rest, or returning to the Good Being whence they emanated. And it would seem, according to Wilkinson, that it was only the ordinarily wicked, not the very worst, who were condemned to this purgatory. He thinks that the monuments show "that the souls which underwent transmigration were those of men whose sins were of a sufficiently moderate kind to admit of that purification; the unpardonable sinner being condemned to eternal fire," by which he means endless fire.

These records of the ancient Greeks, confirmed by the monuments as illustrated by modern scholars, open to us the origin of the doctrines of a judgment after death, and of future endless rewards and punishments, for the good or evil deeds of this life. From the Egyptians it passed, with suitable modifications, to the Greeks and Romans. Diodorus himself clearly shows that the fables of the Acherusian lake, of Hecate, Cerberus, Charon, and the Styx, have their original in these Egyptian ceremonies and doctrines.

And Professor Stuart, in a note to Greppo's Essay on Hieroglyphics, accepts the statement of Spineto, that the Amenti of the Egyptians originated the classic fables of Hades and Tartarus, Charon, Pluto, the judges of hell, the dog Cerberus, the Chimeras, Harpies, Gorgons, Furies, "and other such unnatural and horrible things with which the Greeks and Romans peopled their fantastic hell."
It is curious to note the exactness of the copy in many particulars. The Egyptian Acherusia gives us the Greek Acheron, and perhaps Styx. The Egyptian Tartar, significant of the lamentations of relatives over the dead refused burial on account of their wicked lives, furnishes the Greek Tartarus, where the wicked are punished. The funeral boat across the lake, the ferryman, and the gold piece in the mouth of the dead, give rise to Charon, his boat, and fee, and the passage across the Styx into Hades. The cemetery beyond the lake, surrounded by trees, called by the Egyptians Elisout or Elisaeus, is the original of the Greek Elysian Fields, the abode of the blessed. The three infernal judges, Minos, Aeacus, Rhadamanthus, are borrowed from the Egyptian judges of the dead; and the heads of animals symbolizing these judges, mistaken by the Greeks, are changed into monster Gorgons, Harpies, Furies, &c.

But, as I have remarked, though the Greeks borrowed, they altered and improved. And, true to that individualism which was so marked a characteristic of that people, they are not satisfied with the Egyptian method of generalizing respecting the punishments of the wicked, but begin specifying particular sinners, and particular kinds of punishment adapted to particular offenses. Hence the fables of Ixion, Tantalus, Tityrus, &c., whose torments in the infernal regions are mentioned in the beginning of this chapter. Everything must be sharp, pointed, and dramatic, to suit the lively genius of the Greek; and the terrors of the invisible world must be presented in a way to strike the imagination in the most powerful manner, and produce some direct result on the individual and on society.

The whole thing is designed for effect, to influence the multitude, to restrain their passions, and to aid the magistrate and ruler in keeping them subject to authority. It is the invention of priests and law-makers, who take this as the easiest method of governing the people. They claim the "right divine" to govern; claim that their laws originate with the gods, as we have shown above; and that, therefore, the gods will visit on all offenders the terrors and tortures of the damned. Hence, through the joint cunning of priest and legislator, of church and state, mutually supporting each the other, we have all the stupendous frauds and falsehoods respecting the invisible world.

But, without further remarks of my own, I will introduce the testimony of the heathen themselves on this point, and those the best informed among them, who will tell their own story in their own way. One preliminary observation, however, partly made already, I wish to repeat; and I desire the reader to have it always in mind: The rulers and magistrates, or priests, invent these terrors to keep the people, the masses, in subjection; the people religiously believe in them; while the inventors, of course, and the educated classes, the priests and the philosophers, though they teach them to the multitude, have themselves no manner of faith in them...."
 

Hobie

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",,,1. Polybius, the historian, says: "Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." B. vi 56.

2. Dionysius Halicarnassus treats the whole matter as useful, but not as true. Antiq. Rom., B. ii

3. Livy, the celebrated historian, speaks of it in the same spirit; and he praises the wisdom of Numa, because he invented the fear of the gods, as "a most efficacious means of governing an ignorant and barbarous populace." Hist., I 19.

4. Strabo, the geographer, says: "The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the gods are said to inflict upon offenders, and by those terrors and threatenings which certain dreadful words and monstrous forms imprint upon their minds...For it is impossible to govern the crowd of women, and all the common rabble, by philosophical reasoning, and lead them to piety, holiness and virtue - but this must be done by superstition, or the fear of the gods, by means of fables and wonders; for the thunder, the aegis, the trident, the torches (of the Furies), the dragons, &c., are all fables, as is also all the ancient theology. These things the legislators used as scarecrows to terrify the childish multitude." Geog., B. I

5. Timaeus Locrus, the Pythagorean, after stating that the doctrine of rewards and punishments after death is necessary to society, proceeds as follows: "For as we sometimes cure the body with unwholesome remedies, when such as are most wholesome produce no effect, so we restrain those minds with false relations, which will not be persuaded by the truth. There is a necessity, therefore, of instilling the dread of those foreign torments: 10as that the soul changes its habitation; that the coward is ignominiously thrust into the body of a woman; the murderer imprisoned within the form of a savage beast; the vain and inconstant changed into birds, and the slothful and ignorant into fishes."

6. Plato, in his commentary on Timaeus, fully endorses what he says respecting the fabulous invention of these foreign torments. And Strabo says that "Plato and the Brahmins of India invented fables concerning the future judgments of hell" (Hades). And Chrysippus blames Plato for attempting to deter men from wrong by frightful stories of future punishments.

Plato himself is exceedingly inconsistent, sometimes adopting, even in his serious discourses, the fables of the poets, and at other times rejecting them as utterly false, and giving too frightful views of the invisible world. Sometimes, he argues, on social grounds, that they are necessary to restrain bad men from wickedness and crime, and then again he protests against them on political grounds, as intimidating the citizens, and making cowards of the soldiers, who, believing these things, are afraid of death, and do not therefore fight well. But all this shows in what light he regarded them; not as truths, certainly, but as fictions, convenient in some cases, but difficult to manage in others.

7. Plutarch treats the subject in the same way; sometimes arguing for them with great solemnity and earnestness, and on other occasions calling them "fabulous stories, the tales of mothers and nurses."

8. Seneca says: "Those things which make the infernal regions terrible, the darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, &c., are all a fable, with which the poets amuse themselves, and by them agitate us with vain terrors." Sextus Empiricus calls them "poetic fables of hell;" and Cicero speaks of them as "silly absurdities and fables" (ineptiis ac fabulis).

9. Aristotle. "It has been handed down in mythical form from earliest times to posterity, that there are gods, and that the divine (Deity) compasses all nature. All beside this has been added, after the mythical style, for the purpose of persuading the multitude, and for the interests of the laws, and the advantage of the state." Neander's Church Hist., I, p. 7." ...http://godfire.net/Doctrine_of_Endless_Punishment.htm"
 

Grailhunter

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Well, need to study it and see what is there. Here is a good study for you on the history of hell that I came across:

"...The word Hell, in the Old Testament, is always a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, which occurs sixty-four times, and is rendered "hell" thirty-two times, "grave" twenty-nine times, and "pit" three times.

1. By examination of the Hebrew Scriptures it will be found that its radical or primary meaning is, The place or state of the dead.

The following are examples: "Ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave." Gen. xvii 38. "I will go down to the grave to my son mourning." xxxviii 35. "O that thou wouldst hide me in the grave!" Job xiV 13. "My life draweth nigh to the grave." Ps. lxxxviiI 3. "In the grave who shall give thee thanks?" lxxxvi 5. "Our bones are scattered at the grave's mouth." cxlI 7. "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecc. ix. 10. "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold thou art there." Ps. cxxxix. 8. "Hell from beneath is moved to meet thee, at thy coming. It stirreth up the dead for thee," &c. Isaiah xiV 9-15.

These passages show the Hebrew usage of the word sheol, which is the original of the word "grave" and "hell" in all the examples cited. It is plain that it has here no reference to a place of endless torment after death. The patriarch would scarcely say, "I will go down to an endless hell to my son mourning." He did not believe his son was in any such place. Job would not very likely pray to God to hide him in a place of endless torment, in order to be delivered from his troubles.

If the reader will substitute the word "hell" in the place of "grave" in all these passages, he will be in the way of understanding the Scripture doctrine on this subject.

2. But there is also a figurative sense to the word sheol, which is frequently met with in the later Scriptures of the Old Testament. Used in this sense, it represents a state of degradation or calamity, arising from any cause, whether misfortune, sin, or the judgment of God.

This is an easy and natural transition. The state or the place of the dead was regarded as solemn and gloomy, and thence the word sheol, the name of this place, came to be applied to any gloomy, or miserable state or condition. The following passages are examples: "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me." Psalm xvii 4-6. This was a past event, and therefore the hell must have been this side of death. Solomon, speaking of a child, says, "Thou shalt beat him, and deliver his soul from hell;" that is, from the ruin and woe of disobedience. ProV xxiiI 14. The Lord says to Israel, in reference to their idolatries, "Thou didst debase thyself even unto hell." Isaiah lvii 9. This, of course, signifies a state of utter moral degradation and wickedness, since the Jewish nation as such certainly never went down into a hell of ceaseless woe. Jonah says, "Out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardst me." ii 2. Here we see the absurdity of supposing sheol or hell to mean a place of punishment after death. The hell in this case was the belly of the whale; or rather the wretched and suffering condition in which the disobedient prophet found himself. "The pains of hell got hold on me: I found trouble and sorrow." Ps. cxvi 3. Yet David was a living man, all this while, here on the earth. So he exclaims again, "Great is thy mercy towards me. Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." Ps. lxxxvi 13. Now here the Psalmist was in the lowest hell, and was delivered from it, while he was yet in the body, before death. Of course the hell here cannot be a place of endless punishment after death.

These passages sufficiently illustrate the figurative usage of the word sheol, "hell." They show plainly that it was employed by the Jews as a symbol or figure of extreme degradation or suffering, without reference to the cause. And it is to this condition the Psalmist refers when he says, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Ps. ix. 17. Though Dr. Allen, President of Bowdoin College, thinks "the punishment expressed here is cutting off from life, destroying from earth by some special judgment, and removing to the invisible place of the dead" (sheol).

It is plain, then, from these citations, that the word sheol, "hell," makes nothing for the doctrine of future unending punishment as a part of the Law penalties. It is never used by Moses or the Prophets in the sense of a place of torment after death; and in no way conflicts with the statement already proved, that the Law of Moses deals wholly in temporal rewards and punishments.

This position, also, I wish to fortify by the testimony of Orthodox critics, men of learning and candor. They know, and therefore they speak.

1. CHAPMAN. "Sheol, in itself considered, has no connection with future punishment." Cited by Balfour, First Inquiry.

2. DR. ALLEN, quoted above, says: "The term sheol does not seem to mean, with certainty, anything more than the state of the dead in their deep abode."

3. DR. CAMPBELL. "Sheol signifies the state of the dead without regard to their happiness or misery."

4. DR. WHITBY. "Sheol throughout the Old Testament signifies not the place of punishment, or of the souls of bad men only, but the grave only, or the place of death."

5. DR. MUENSCHER. This distinguished author of a Dogmatic History in German, says: "The souls or shades of the dead wander in sheol, the realm or kingdom of death, an abode deep under the earth. Thither go all men, without distinction, and hope for no return. There ceases all pain and anguish; there reigns an unbroken silence; there all is powerless and still; and even the praise of God is heard no more."

6. VON COELLN. "Sheol itself is described as the house appointed for all living, which receives into its bosom all mankind, without distinction of rank, wealth, or moral character. It is only in the mode of death, and not in the condition after death, that the good are distinguished above the evil. The just, for instance, die in peace, and are gently borne away before the evil comes; while a bitter death breaks the wicked like as a tree." 2"....

As you have said Sheol is represented in different ways in the Old Testament….They worshipped Yahweh but as far as spiritual concepts they were vague on that.

As far as what people say that is different, I could not care less. The fact is a fiery place of torment is not represented in the Old Testament.

And anyone can verify on their own, the Jews in the Old Testament did not believe in Hell or a Devil and the still to not believe in Hell and the Devil today.
 

Hobie

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As you have said Sheol is represented in different ways in the Old Testament….They worshipped Yahweh but as far as spiritual concepts they were vague on that.

As far as what people say that is different, I could not care less. The fact is a fiery place of torment is not represented in the Old Testament.

And anyone can verify on their own, the Jews in the Old Testament did not believe in Hell or a Devil and the still to not believe in Hell and the Devil today.
You have to understand that it was considered a absolute condition of destruction and you will find it in the Old Testament if you truly look. Here are a few...

Proverbs 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”

To believe in eternal conscious hell means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all.

Daniel 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.”

This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. This is the opposite of eternal life in hell.

Isaiah 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”

Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“

And many more...
 

Grailhunter

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You have to understand that it was considered a absolute condition of destruction and you will find it in the Old Testament if you truly look. Here are a few...

Proverbs 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”

To believe in eternal conscious hell means one believes they will not be snuffed out at all.

Daniel 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.”

This continues the theme of totally destroyed– there’s not a trace of the wicked. This is the opposite of eternal life in hell.

Isaiah 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.”

Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“

And many more...
Destroyed in this world….yes
But still no place of an eternal fiery torment.
Still nowhere, where God threatened them with a eternal fiery torment for sinning.
For someone to go to the place of eternal fiery torment, they have to be judged there by Yeshua.
Now Yahweh could have had a judgment Day, but He did not.
And Like I said Judaism is based on the Old Testament and they do not believe in Hell.
 
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Hobie

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Destroyed in this world….yes
But still no place of an eternal fiery torment.
Still nowhere, where God threatened them with a eternal fiery torment for sinning.
For someone to go to the place of eternal fiery torment, they have to be judged there by Yeshua.
Now Yahweh could have had a judgment Day, but He did not.
And Like I said Judaism is based on the Old Testament and they do not believe in Hell.
Well, the Rabbi's are teaching from the Kabbalah and so they are all over the place and many dont even believe in God...
 

Grailhunter

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Well, the Rabbi's are teaching from the Kabbalah and so they are all over the place and many dont even believe in God...
All I can say is do a study on Judaism.
They definitely believe in Yahweh.
And there are different sects of Judaism today and some can get interesting.
 

MatthewG

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Hello @Hobie,

(I just openly tend to share the concept of the whole message and scope founded within the Bible. No matter if you disagree or believe I am most certainly without a shadow of a doubt
that indeed I am wrong - is fine
: because at the end of the day, it’s what does my relationship with Yahweh and others look like? Like a stat that changes every single day or three months out of the year. There is gonna be bad stats, and good stats. And what I mean by this - out all my bad decisions I hope someone learned from, and out of all the decisions made in Christ - is a hope that someone also learned from him, and not myself. Many believe in this whole world is gonna be wiped away when it’s the “Jewish people of the time which Yahweh gave his son whom they handed over to be killed were guilty of breaking covenant of Yahweh, “love your neighbor as yourself.” With his hand on them, and of course most humanist would be saying that Yahweh is a monster for taking life, but his the life giver and life taker. Genesis 9; Exodus 20; Psalm 139.) While “Israel may have became a known figure in 1940s or something like that materially; doesn’t mean anything and it doesn’t have anything to do with the people at the time, before the destruction as promised from Yeshua had come upon them; such as the parable of the evil farmers or tenants.

Just quoting verses like this, doesn’t stop the reveal of informative information concerning the state of the dead, from a whole new scene which leaves everything from Revelation 1-20 wrapped up in judgment of that prior age, the Mosaic Age, ended when Israel was put to an end, as promised to come, replaced with the new “spiritual” economy/ which people are adopted as Gods children and form a relationship with Yahweh and Yeshua, whom was Yahwehs Word, which Yahweh had sent, born in spirit and in flesh.

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more; and I, John, saw the holy city — new Jerusalem — coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, ‘Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them — their God, and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.’ And He who is sitting upon the throne said, ‘Lo, new I make all things; and He saith to me, ‘Write, because these words are true and stedfast;’ and He said to me, ‘It hath been done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End; I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely; he who is overcoming shall inherit all things, and I will be to him — a God, and he shall be to me — the son, and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.’ And there came unto me one of the seven messengers, who have the seven vials that are full of the seven last plagues, and he spake with me, saying, ‘Come, I will shew thee the bride of the Lamb — the wife,’ and he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and did shew to me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, having the glory of God, and her light [is] like a stone most precious, as a jasper stone clear as crystal, having also a wall great and high, having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve messengers, and names written thereon, which are [those] of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel, at the east three gates, at the north three gates, at the south three gates, at the west three gates; and the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he who is speaking with me had a golden reed, that he may measure the city, and its gates, and its wall; and the city lieth square, and the length of it is as great as the breadth; and he did measure the city with the reed — furlongs twelve thousand; the length, and the breadth, and the height, of it are equal; and he measured its wall, an hundred forty-four cubits, the measure of a man, that is, of the messenger; and the building of its wall was jasper, and the city [is] pure gold — like to pure glass; and the foundations of the wall of the city with every precious stone have been adorned; the first foundation jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprasus; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. And the twelve gates [are] twelve pearls, each several one of the gates was of one pearl; and the broad-place of the city [is] pure gold — as transparent glass. And a sanctuary I did not see in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, is its sanctuary, and the Lamb, and the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they may shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp of it [is] the Lamb; and the nations of the saved in its light shall walk, and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it, and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there; and they shall bring the glory and the honour of the nations into it; and there may not at all enter into it any thing defiling and doing abomination, and a lie, but — those written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭1‬-‭27‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

No more sea? God must have hated the animals he made in the sea. Yahweh got rid of it, correct? Perhaps, Brazen or Molten Sea, could be the best estimate: perhaps surviving copies were unable to survive in order to even notice Molten or Brazen was there. Worthy of a quick search in google for sure.

“And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb: in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service of the nations; and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him, and they shall see His face, and His name [is] upon their foreheads, and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign — to the ages of the ages. And he said to me, ‘These words [are] stedfast and true, and the Lord God of the holy prophets did send His messenger to shew to His servants the things that it behoveth to come quickly: Lo, I come quickly; happy [is] he who is keeping the words of the prophecy of this scroll.’ And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things; and he saith to me, ‘See — not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.’ And he saith to me, ‘Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh; he who is unrighteous — let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy — let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous — let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified — let him be sanctified still: And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; I am the Alpha and the Omega — the Beginning and End — the First and the Last. ‘Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city; and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie. ‘I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star! And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing — let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting — let him come; and he who is willing — let him take the water of life freely. ‘For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll, and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;’ he saith — who is testifying these things — ‘Yes, I come quickly!’ Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭1‬-‭21‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Thank you for your comment; at the end of the day - we share between each other, and I’m very adamant of people’s, “need.” To understand that you are given life to live; so live it; in front of Yahweh, because your gonna die when you do, a time only God knows, of for sure? But you too also know? Even myself, yes, this heart will stop beating one day. However Yahweh destroyed the world he had given his chosen people and stripped it away from them; for their disobedience and those of the bride for their obedience.
This planet is never said to be destroyed. The age of time, that comes and goes all the time, was. In a one time event which is said to never happen again.
 
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MatthewG

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When it comes to Sheol, the place where the bodiless souls gathered, though separated, as Yeshua described in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus, which he described the state of the dead.

While they were still separated, and also separated from Yahweh.

The place of the rich man is an ever wanting place where there seems to be no rest.

The place of Lazarus, and the others, of some rest but, to be together with Yahweh was the hope, along with resurrection bodies.

Be it for one or the other.

Condemnation or Life (or greater than the originality of what is common to others whom just receive the normal result of resurrection of life, received the mansion (habitat) which is built in mind of you, for you, and all things regardless of the condition of one, is a gift from Yahweh, who only gives good gifts.



(Yeshua spoke about bodies thrown in ghenna.)

A preformed warning to the Pharisees and the ruined condition they would be in, they would literally have to throw the bodies into the pit. (No proper burial; they were accustomed too.)


In the end, Sheol would be like living in the whale in the ocean… just use your imagination of how that would be to experience, stinky, can’t be still, your body would be warmed up from the heat of it, the pressure of going up and down, and jumping out of the ocean. It would be definitely dark.

So where the tv comedy “you go to hell and burn,” is just a commodity from anyone who has never done any proper studying concerning (Hades) Sheol, Hell (grave/Ghenna.)

I’m so glad this place deemed “hades,” in revelation is gone today, replaced by the now heavenly establishment of Yeshua, whom has conquered over all things.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Charles “Taze” Russell was something between an idiot and a scammer. The one thing that he wasn’t, was a biblical scholar.

I spent sometime in the kingdom hall because of my aunt and it was hilarious….They try to convince people that they understand the biblical languages but if you have an opportunity to witness the witnesses LOL they use a placebo word study to twist the words to fit their false religion and deceive others. Just like they practice in the kingdom halls how to deceive people to let them into their homes. It is real thing, they practice this.

The funny thing is that if they understood the biblical languages they would know the basics. God the Father’s name is not Jehovah. All the persons, places, and things that start with the letter J in English Bibles actually start with a Y in the scriptures. Yahweh, Yeshua, Yob, Yoshua, Yames Yericho,….etc. The letter J came out in the 1400’s and was not popular until the 1600’s. That is just from basic knowledge and they named their religion wrong. It is not Jehovah it is Yahweh.

In a lot of ways the Jehovah’s Witnesses are like a cult, but not in there method of study. It is different but it is still mind control or mental conditioning. If you talk to Professional Interventionists they will tell you it is like talking to a programmed robot when they try to rescue the women and children from this group. They practice their rebuttals to the truth.

Koiné Greek vs Christian Greek. Koiné Greek actually does not have Christian terms and theological words and Christian concepts for a very good reason…it is a Pagan language. Christian Greek is a modification of that language. The people that wrote the New Testament had to use similar words and modify their meanings. A simple example is the word sin, in the Greek it means miss the target, no religious significance, like your arrow missed the target. The writers of the New Testament took that word and made it a Christian theological word meaning transgression.

This was the issue with the concept of a fiery place of eternal punishment. This was a new concept that did not exist in the Old Testament. It was a drastic concept that did not exist in the Pagan world either. They could not use the word Hell because that word is an Anglo-Saxon word that did not come out until 725 AD. They had the word Hades but that was a Greek god that reigned over a spirit prison named Hades which did not include the concept of fire. So they modified the meaning to include fire. And sometimes they used the word Gehenna translated Hell in English Bible.

They did the best they could, they modified the word Hades to include the meaning of a place of eternal fiery torment and Christ used the illustration of the fires of Gehenna for this place of eternal fiery torment, and they referenced fire in general for this place and then you have the Lake of Fire. Sometimes they would say things like eternal fire or eternal punishment or eternal damnation. It is all about eternal fire and the torment of eternal fire. So they explained this topic in as many ways as they could to get the truth acrossed.

And one of the big questions here is….Who do you think would want Christians ….even the world to believe that there was not a place of eternal fiery torment for the immoral….that would be Satan and the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
So please tell us about your own brotherhood so that we may scrutinize them with the same measure of scriptural correctness…..that is only fair, isn’t it?
 

Wick Stick

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Hell and Hades….are not mentioned in the Old Testament for a very good reason. If you have a Bible with these words in the Old Testament….buy another Bible or make corrections

The word Hell does not appear in the Old or New Testament, because the word did not exist in the any of the biblical periods. The word Hell is derived from the Anglo-Saxon word hellia, which in time moved into the Old English, Old Norse, Old High German, hel, helle, circa. 725 AD.

Nothing like Hell is described in the Old Testament and then of course God never threatened the Hebrews/ Israelites / Jews with a spiritual destination of punishment. So the Jews in the Old Testament did not know of or believe in a Hell….and as it is, modern Jews do not believe in a Hell or a devil today. Knowledge of a place of punishment does not come about until the knowledge of the devil comes about…that is the New Testament. Satan is mentioned in the Old Testament but his role in the storyline is not defined. So that is why the Jews do not believe in a devil.

Hades --- translated from a Greek word --- cannot appear in the Old Testament because the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, long before the Greek language existed, so a Greek word is not going to appear in a Hebrew text. So what is Hades? It is a little complex and I am sorry about that. The Apostles were tasked with writing the New Testament in Greek (mostly) and it was a Pagan language, from a Pagan culture and society. So it is no surprise that the language did not include Christian terms and meanings. So the Apostles had to take Greek words of close definitions and adjust them by the context of how they were used in the Scriptures. Definitions on the fly! LOL But as it was the Jewish language nor the Greek language had a word for a spiritual place of eternal fiery torment. So Christ and the Apostles had to improvise.

Christ used the illustration of Gehenna in the Valley of Hinnom…the burning trash dump….to describe Hell and He also referenced the fire and eternal torment at different times. The Apostles used the Greek word ᾅδης translated Hades in English…and I am bypassing the Latin because it does not matter…that was translated into more modern (725 AD) languages as Hell. But actually in the Greek language ᾅδης or Hades in the English… is the name of a Greco-Roman god….that presided over a realm called Hades that was not as much a place of torture but more of an underworld prison. It was the closest Greek word the Apostles could come up with to represent a place of eternal punishment.

Gehenna, the Aramaic name for a section of the Valley of Hinnom was a Roman trash dump that the Romans kept on fire intentionally for sanitation purposes….and they would dump dead bodies there and so as it was it was used as an analogy for Hell.

Shoal is an entirely different topic. In the beliefs of the Hebrew/ Israelite / Jewish people Shoal is not well defined or even consistent. For the most part they believe everyone goes there. For the Old Testament Jews Shoal was the final destination for everybody, good or bad. Since Yahweh did not promise them Heaven or threaten them with “Hell” Christians more or less just dropped the belief in Shoal….but there is no biblical reason to believe it no longer exists or is not a possible destination. I will address the whole conscience thing later.

But back to the question, Why was Gehenna changed to Hell? Gehenna was never actually a place of eternal punishment, it was an analogy or an illustration of an eternal fiery place of punishment. So a more correct understanding was probably needed when the languages could support it.

As I have said, the word Hell is derived from the Anglo-Saxon word hellia, derived from the Old English, Old Norse, Old High German, hel, helle, circa. 725 AD.

So the word Hell and its description becomes available in various languages.
725 AD….before Bibles like the Tyndale Bible, or the Geneva Bible, or the King James Bible are translated….in the 16th and 17th centuries.

In between this time you have the era of Shakespeare and the poets that impacted the Bibles as well as general Christian concepts of Hell.

Most Christian imagery of Hell as in the details comes from….The Divine Comedy an Italian narrative poem by Dante Aligieri, begun circa 1308 and completed around 1321, shortly before the author's death. It is widely considered the pre-eminent work in Italian literature and one of the greatest works of world literature.
and
Paradise Lost an epic poem by the 17th-century English poet John Milton (1608–1674). The first version, published in 1667, consists of ten books with over ten thousand lines of verses. A second edition followed in 1674, arranged into twelve books It is considered to be Milton's master piece, and it helped solidify his reputation as one of the greatest English poets of all time.

Although they took some literary privileges, the word Hell and the biblical descriptions filled the need for more information about Hell. So when the Bibles were translated the words Hell or Hades were inserted into the Old and New testament scriptures. The concept was always there….Christ and the Apostles were referring to an eternal fiery place of punishment….they just did not have a good word for it in the languages they had available in the biblical era.

Heaven, as far as the Old Testament Jews, they believed that was where God was and they definitely did not believe it was a destination for people…. (with few exceptions) and they were not even sure if Angels were there.

It’s about a 400 year period between the Testaments and suddenly we have a devil and Heaven and Hell and a Lake of Fire that where possible destinations for people. Now for anyone that is paying attention, they should be asking themselves….What happened!!! Well a lot happened, but Fundamentalism does not cover that. Generally what they do is try to Christianize the Old Testament to compensate for lack of the concepts of Hell and a Devil figure. As far as the Lake of Fire….it occurs late in the biblical era and exactly what it is, is a matter of debate. My opinion? The term Lake of Fire describes what it look like, but it is actually a portal straight to Hell.

But still since the Jews were looking for a human warlord messiah king… the advent of Satan may have made that impractical and it would take a God to straighten things out.

The Jewish Messiah foretold of a savior in that he would free them from their oppressors…by force! They did not believe that the Jewish Messiah was there to forgive them of sins or save them from Hell or discontinue sacrifices or the Law or provide a path to Heaven. If you look at the Jewish prophets they foretold that the Messianic kingdom would last forever and the Temple, Mosaic Law, and sacrifices would continue forever.
You've done your research. Lots of good info here. One quick contradiction...

GEHENNA seems to be emblematic of TARTARUS rather than HADES. The two are not the same place.
 

Wick Stick

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As far as what people say that is different, I could not care less. The fact is a fiery place of torment is not represented in the Old Testament.
Agree. But they did believe in an in-between place where the dead were imprisoned awaiting judgment.

And anyone can verify on their own, the Jews in the Old Testament did not believe in Hell or a Devil and the still to not believe in Hell and the Devil today.
There is no Old Testament Hell as such, only Sheol. But we do have Belial from even the earliest books, and Satan features prominently in Job. There is a pretty good chance that they weren't understood the same way the modern church understands The Devil. I'd chalk that up as a failing of the modern church, though.
 

Grailhunter

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So please tell us about your own brotherhood so that we may scrutinize them with the same measure of scriptural correctness…..that is only fair, isn’t it?

I am a theologian….life long formal education in 5 countries and I go to about a dozen churches several denominations. If you want a target, my favorite is the Holy Ghost churches. Go ahead and say something bad about the Holy Spirit....not going to hurt, you are going to Hell anyway.

The Lord can testify that told you to get out of that Hell bound cult.
 

MatthewG

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You've done your research. Lots of good info here. One quick contradiction...

GEHENNA seems to be emblematic of TARTARUS rather than HADES. The two are not the same place.

While Gehenna today is no longer on fire, and was long ago. Hades, Sheol would be related in my opinion. Why would it be? Sheol held both good souls, and unrepentant souls, as well as prisoners who were perhaps a bit further away from where the rich man is located with his needing. Where the good side was at some measure of rest; yet they communed. I believe those angels who were chained resides in the even lower parts perhaps of this holding tank before it was poured out, with all the souls with in it, and I suppose the angels collected there to in Tartarus.

Though this my collective view overall, wick.
 

Grailhunter

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Agree. But they did believe in an in-between place where the dead were imprisoned awaiting judgment.

Are you talking about Sheol?

There is no Old Testament Hell as such, only Sheol. But we do have Belial from even the earliest books, and Satan features prominently in Job. There is a pretty good chance that they weren't understood the same way the modern church understands The Devil. I'd chalk that up as a failing of the modern church, though.

Belial is a Hebrew word "used to characterize the wicked or worthless". The etymology of the word is often understood as "lacking worth"

You have to watch your translations on this topic. The KJV tries to Christianize the Old Testament by sneaking in the devil or demons and Hell.

Sheol is described different in different places in the Old Testament but overall, all Jews go there, bad or good.

After a person dies sometime the scriptures say....and he was gathered with his fathers.

If you find a place where Sheol is specifically defined as a place of punishment let me know.
 

Wick Stick

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While Gehenna today is no longer on fire, and was long ago.
You're speaking of the literal Gehenna (Hinnom's Hill)? Don't you think that it stood as an emblem for a place in the hereafter?
Hades, Sheol would be related in my opinion. Why would it be? Sheol held both good souls, and unrepentant souls, as well as prisoners who were perhaps a bit further away from where the rich man is located with his needing. Where the good side was at some measure of rest; yet they communed.
Definitely related.
I believe those angels who were chained resides in the even lower parts perhaps of this holding tank before it was poured out, with all the souls with in it, and I suppose the angels collected there to in Tartarus.

Though this my collective view overall, wick.
In Greek writings, Tartarus isn't part of Hades, but the ENTRANCE to Tartarus is in Hades. Also, Tartarus is a titan in conflict with their gods, including Hades.

Not to suggest that Greek myths are particularly reliable, but the Bible uses Greek language to explain this, so that's what we got.
 

Wick Stick

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Are you talking about Sheol?
Yes? I'm thinking of Hades, but I think of the two as being the same place.

Greek Hades is a place of waiting for judgment. The heroic dead eventually go on to Elysium, the wicked dead go on to Tartarus, and the non-exceptional are either re-born into the world or are forgotten and pass into non-existence. But mostly the souls there are waiting to be judged, and perhaps wandering about in the fields of Asphodel. It seems to be watery rather than fiery.

Hebrew Sheol isn't as colorfully developed in mythological motifs as Greek, but where it does talk about it, the Bible seems to portray it as a prison, with "bars" and being "shut up." Jonah seems to have gone there and returned. In intertestamental Hebrew writings, it has separate waiting places for the righteous, the evil, and the non-exceptional. Lazarus and rich man seems to draw from this.

The Old Testament also has "the Deep" (tehowm), which seems similar, being a watery place deep underground.

Belial is a Hebrew word "used to characterize the wicked or worthless". The etymology of the word is often understood as "lacking worth"

You have to watch your translations on this topic. The KJV tries to Christianize the Old Testament by sneaking in the devil or demons and Hell.
The Old Testament mostly refers to "children of Belial" with the idea that the wicked among them are illegitimate of birth. They are not-really-Israelites because if they were they would act right. And it's sort of an acknowledgement that the Israelites always knew that they were a mixed group - the whole "wheat and tares" thing referred to by Jesus is definitely founded in the Old Testament.

If you find a place where Sheol is specifically defined as a place of punishment let me know.
No. It's a place of judgment, but that judgment can lead to reward as well as punishment.
 

Grailhunter

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Hebrew Sheol isn't as colorfully developed in mythological motifs as Greek, but where it does talk about it, the Bible seems to portray it as a prison, with "bars" and being "shut up." Jonah seems to have gone there and returned. In intertestamental Hebrew writings, it has separate waiting places for the righteous, the evil, and the non-exceptional. Lazarus and rich man seems to draw from this.

Not being rude.....I want you to find the prison aspect.
A topic like this, if you are like me, you have to keep the biblical separate from the extra biblical information.

The Old Testament mostly refers to "children of Belial" with the idea that the wicked among them are illegitimate of birth. They are not-really-Israelites because if they were they would act right. And it's sort of an acknowledgement that the Israelites always knew that they were a mixed group - the whole "wheat and tares" thing referred to by Jesus is definitely founded in the Old Testament.

I go with the simple understanding "worthless fellows"
You have a lot of information there.....which is good.

No. It's a place of judgment, but that judgment can lead to reward as well as punishment.

That will due. Find that it is a place of judgment.