The Gospel of Reconciliation

[Eternally Grateful]

Where is this stated in scripture.

Can you explain

1. Why we need born again
2. What it means that the wage of sin is death
3. What it means to be dead in tresspasses and sin?

if it is not spiritual death. What then kind of death is it (its not physical death, because I was physically alive before I was born again)

He died both, physical and spiritual. But spiritual in scripture is always in relation to our spiritual relationship with Christ. In scripture there are two deaths and two resurrection. They correspond to physical and spiritual. Spiritual death occured by Adam sinning and losing the relationship he had with God. That same death spiritual is what is regenerated through baptism which has always been called the spiritual resurrection "born again". It is also referred to in Rev 20:5. Rom 6 is called the baptism chapter and explains this principle of dying and rising with Christ through baptism.

Are you talking about water baptism here? Where do you see water baptism in John 3. Jesus said many words. he never said the word baptize

Physical death was the consequence of Adam sin also but His nature was permitted to die and spread to all men by birth. It ends at the resurrection of the dead in the last day.

Physical death is a result of sin.. The moment Adam died. he started to die physically..

yes, there will be a physical ressurection. But only for those born again, The rest will be delivered to God for judgment (Rev 20)

Christ did not die spiritually. He died physically.

Wrong,, If he did not die spiritually. Your still under the penalty of have no means of justification.

And Jesus lied when he said it is finished.

His soul decended into Hades where He preached and took captive those held in captivity by the devil,
The penalty for sin was death. He defeated death, defeated Satan who held the powor of death. His sacrifice proptitiated sin as well.

that was after his physical death, and after he said it is finished.

Why would Jesus lie?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So quick to name names when your view does not align with another. If you must know I am an Orthodox Christian. Definitely not a denomination.

so catholic leaning?

I have not heard them say what you are preaching, catholic or orthodox

 

[Behold]

So quick to name names when your view does not align with another.

I didnt accuse you, i only asked you.

No need to hide.

If you must know I am an Orthodox Christian.

That's meaningless.

The only thing that matters, is....

Are you born again.. and you'll have to explain that, as if you can't explain it correctly, as someone like Episkopos can't explain it at all..., then that's a problem, but its also a revelation to the members and MODS here, who care and are paying attention. @Rightglory

Also,

The other thing that matters, is.. after a person is born again.....did a CULT get your MIND ?

So, much of what you are teaching is definitely a cult's teaching.., regarding the "new body", "resurrections", ect.

 

[Rightglory]

Can you explain

1. Why we need born again

To be regenerated to a new relationship with Christ that has eternal consequences. It is accomplished through baptism and enters one into the Kingdom of God.

2. What it means that the wage of sin is death

It is referring to the second death which is permanent relational separation from God for an eternity.

3. What it means to be dead in tresspasses and sin?

This is taken from Eph 2:1-5. It starts with you who were made alive, some translations use the word "quicken" which means given physical life. Vs 5 confirms that in this case believers because He is speaking to all believers, but includes all others, meaning all men, were made us alive together with Christ. Which refers to the Incarnation of Christ in that He assume our human natures and raised them to life It has the the parenthesis which uses the past tense, which can only apply to the complietion of His resurrection. Believers are not saved, past tense in this life. They are being saved through faith. it is a journey, the end is held as an inheritance if they remain faithful, I Peter 1:3-5

if it is not spiritual death. What then kind of death is it (its not physical death, because I was physically alive before I was born again)

You were alive, but did not have life. We, in this mortal state live in a state of death.

Are you talking about water baptism here? Where do you see water baptism in John 3. Jesus said many words. he never said the word baptize

Vs 5 gives you the answer.

Physical death is a result of sin.. The moment Adam died. he started to die physically..

Yes.

yes, there will be a physical ressurection. But only for those born again, The rest will be delivered to God for judgment (Rev 20)S

scripture disagrees, I Cor 15:53-54 states that ALL THE DEAD shall be raised. That resurrection occurs at the last day. Rev 20: 11-13.
Your reference to Rev 20:5 is speaking of those who were baptized, which is the spiritual resurrection.

Wrong,, If he did not die spiritually. Your still under the penalty of have no means of justification.

If you want to say that Christ in His human nature did not have a relationship to God for three days while dead, you need to have a different answer for His soul which decended into hades, I would say His Soul still had a relationship with God.
You might be confusing the terms spirit and life. Christ gave us His spirit, or gave up His life. They mean the same thing

And Jesus lied when he said it is finished.

that was after his physical death, and after he said it is finished.

Why would Jesus lie?

Why would He state it if He was dead, Don't you think He knew when He was going to die since it was He who gave up His life/spirit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But death occured from Adam.

No. Death was built into creation. And Adam wasn't the first to die. Able was the first to die.

We sin because we are mortal. I Cor 15:56.

No. That is not what Paul means to say. He says, "The sting of Death is sin." Death is depicted as a menacing creature with a sting. The sting is life-threatening and, untreated, will result in death. Sin doesn't cause death directly. Sin condemns a person to permanent loss of life.

God told Adam that on the day he sinned "dying you shall die" meaning that they day Adam sinned he would bring permanent condemnation on himself such that when he physically died, he would not recover such as to live again.

He sure did, as He did with Adam, But it is Satan that had the power of death, Heb 2:14-16. God permits a lot by His Sovereignty. By permiting man to become mortal, God had plan to redeem man from that error by eventually sending Christ into this world, Incarnate by the Holy Spirit through the Virgin Mary.

God didn't "permit" man to become mortal. God created him that way from the start.

Spiritual death, which is loss of a relationship with God.

No, the second death is permanent destruction.

That would be contradictory. Scripture says God crearted all things and He saw that it was good. Why would God create man mortal, being able to die.

It serves the narrative structure of creation.

Man was created to be eternal.

No, man was created moral. If man was created to be eternal, God would have made him indestructible from the get-go.

See Heb 2:14-16 again. Death is a parasite permitted to exist on this earth under the power of Satan.

it has been defeated but has not yet ended.

Only when death is ended has it been defeated.

Where is this stated in scripture?

Are you kidding me? It's everywhere in the gospel. You can't miss it.

Study this passage:

John 17:8-10
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

Only those whom God has given to Jesus Christ will be made alive.

 

[Rightglory]

so catholic leaning?

I have not heard them say what you are preaching, catholic or orthodox

Apparently, you are not well read when it comes to historical Christianity. We have been discussing only one thing and that is the Humanity of Christ or the Incarnation. Roman Catholics may have a different view because they accepted Augustines doctrine of Original Sin. they also accepted the Satisfaction theory of atonement developed by Anslem in the 11th century.

 

[Behold]

To be regenerated to a new relationship with Christ that has eternal consequences. It is accomplished through baptism

What Baptism accomplishes "regeneration"..?

 

[Behold]

because He is speaking to all believers, but includes all others, meaning all men

'""""""Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ."""""

This is not "all men" as "all have not faith in Christ"..

So, you @Rightglory , are teaching that everyone is born again.

That's a lie.
Just ask the people who went to Hell, this very day, if "all" were quickened.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

To be regenerated to a new relationship with Christ that has eternal consequences. It is accomplished through baptism and enters one into the Kingdom of God.

Why do we need regenerated. Why do we need born again, What is wrong with us?

And here you go with your baptism again, Which one, of God of of man?

It is referring to the second death which is permanent relational separation from God for an eternity.

No. Because the second death does not occur until after the great white throne judgment

I was not suffering my second death when I was made alive in Christ (born again)

This is taken from Eph 2:1-5. It starts with you who were made alive, some translations use the word "quicken" which means given physical life.

Again this is wrong. Quicken means in effect to be regenerated, or to be made alive because we were dead.. may deal with physical life (physical ressurection, as in case of Lazarus). but not in this case. we were born physically alive.

Vs 5 confirms that in this case believers because He is speaking to all believers, but includes all others, meaning all men, were made us alive together with Christ. Which refers to the Incarnation of Christ in that He assume our human natures and raised them to life It has the the parenthesis which uses the past tense, which can only apply to the complietion of His resurrection. Believers are not saved, past tense in this life. They are being saved through faith. it is a journey, the end is held as an inheritance if they remain faithful, I Peter 1:3-5

what?

So you are trying to earn your salvation. well that is good to know. it makes sense now

You were alive, but did not have life. We, in this mortal state live in a state of death.

I was physically alive, i was spiritually dead. its why I needed to be born again

Vs 5 gives you the answer.

Verse 5 does not say baptism.

Try again

Yes.

scripture disagrees, I Cor 15:53-54 states that ALL THE DEAD shall be raised. That resurrection occurs at the last day. Rev 20: 11-13.
Your reference to Rev 20:5 is speaking of those who were baptized, which is the spiritual resurrection.

Funny how you did not go to the passage

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

They will not be raised because they were not born again, they remained spiritually dead. and will suffer the second death
I was not asking about rev 20: 5, But those are those who are born again, and die in the tribulation period..

If you want to say that Christ in His human nature did not have a relationship to God for three days while dead, you need to have a different answer for His soul which decended into hades, I would say His Soul still had a relationship with God.

You keep going here

This is AFTER jesus said IT IS FINISHED.

Jesus became spiritually dead the moment God turned his back on him, So much was the pain of Jesus he cried out My God My God why have you forsaken 9departed) from me..

Open your mind up. Your stuck in religion.

You might be confusing the terms spirit and life. Christ gave us His spirit, or gave up His life. They mean the same thing

Once again, your looking PAST the event i am talking about, which had already taken place. which is why jesus could say It is finished.

Why would He state it if He was dead, Don't you think He knew when He was going to die since it was He who gave up His life/spirit.

lol. Why would he state it if it was not yet completed.

see. You do not understand what he said or what he meant..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Apparently, you are not well read when it comes to historical Christianity.

Oh I am very versed.

We have been discussing only one thing and that is the Humanity of Christ or the Incarnation.

We have? I thought we were discussing his payment for sin

Roman Catholics may have a different view because they accepted Augustines doctrine of Original Sin. they also accepted the Satisfaction theory of atonement developed by Anslem in the 11th century.

Roman catholics started in 300 AD with constantine, so you are totally misinformed

 

[Behold]

That resurrection occurs at the last day. Rev 20: 11-13.

This is God's Judgment against Unbelievers.

How do you know its not for the CHRISTian?

Its because Christians meet God as FATHER GOD, after they die, just like He became to them on Earth, once they were born again.

Christians do not meet God, after they die, as "judge"..

Why ?

Because they are not this one...

John 3:36

 

[CadyandZoe]

It has been defeated, It was permitted to remain until He returns.

Death has not been defeated. People die all the time.

All the dead will be raised, not just followers. I Cor 15:5354.

Negative. Only Jesus' followers will be raised.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies.

Not everyone has the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwelling in them.

A new relationship, not a new physical nature.

Yes, a new physical nature. It's called "glorification."

All believers still possess a mortal nature. You are correct that believes will also be glorified.
There will be no sin in hell also. They will not be able to have a relationship with God.

Hell is only temporary. The permanent condition of the damned is destruction.

Yes, but He questioned Adam first.

So what?

It means precisely, exactly everything, not just humans, Col 1:20.

No. You don't know the background behind the phrase. It addresses the debate among early believers who questioned whether a person needed to convert to Judaism and keep Moses to please God. The answer is that the cross of Christ applies to both Jewish believers and Gentile believers.

 

[Rightglory]

No. Death was built into creation. And Adam wasn't the first to die. Able was the first to die.

No, Adam was not created mortal. God permitted it out of mercy to mankind and His creation.

No. That is not what Paul means to say. He says, "The sting of Death is sin." Death is depicted as a menacing creature with a sting. The sting is life-threatening and, untreated, will result in death. Sin doesn't cause death directly. Sin condemns a person to permanent loss of life.

you got the idea that the sting of death is sin. That is true for every human born. But it was not true for Adam. He brougth death to the world. Sin condemns anyone who does not confess their sins. Sin for us cannot bring physical death. We are already mortal, What it can bring is the Second, eternal spiritual death, hell.

God told Adam that on the day he sinned "dying you shall die" meaning that they day Adam sinned he would bring permanent condemnation on himself such that when he physically died, he would not recover such as to live again.

Correct. He immediately became mortal.

God didn't "permit" man to become mortal. God created him that way from the start.

That would be very amazing. God created this universe and called it good, But at the same time he created within it its own destruction. Scripture disagrees with you once again. Death is the Power of Satan, not God. Heb 2:14-16.

No, the second death is permanent destruction.

Permanent spiritual separation. Those in hell will not be destroyed. Why would God destroy something He created, then gave His life to restore that creature back to an eternal existence?

It serves the narrative structure of creation.

No, man was created moral. If man was created to be eternal, God would have made him indestructible from the get-go.

Only when death is ended has it been defeated.

it has been defeated which makes the resurrection possible so that death can be ended.

Are you kidding me? It's everywhere in the gospel. You can't miss it.

Study this passage:

John 17:8-10
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

Only those whom God has given to Jesus Christ will be made alive.

Here is what you stated, "No, that is not true. Only those who belong to Jesus will be rid of sin eventually."
i asked for scripture and you give the above. This text does not address your statement in the least. John 17 is Jesus' pastoral prayer. The first 5 vs are for Himself, vs 6-19 He is praying for the Apostles, vs 20-23 He is praying for the Church, vs 14-26 He is praying for all.
Scripture once more disagrees with you. All men die once to rid this body of sin. That is all men. All men will be resurrected in the last day, immortal, incorruptible.. There will be no sin in the New Heaven and New Earth.

 

[Rightglory]

This is God's Judgment against Unbelievers.

How do you know its not for the CHRISTian?

Its because Christians meet God as FATHER GOD, after they die, just like He became to them on Earth, once they were born again.

Christians do not meet God, after they die, as "judge"..

Why ?

Because they are not this one...

John 3:36

Well, what can I say. Scripture disagrees again with your statement. Rev 20: 13 is the Great Whsite Thone judgement. All the dead,not some of the dead, stand before Him, and books were opened. And another book is opened, the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works. Paul states the same in Rom 2:6-8,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, what can I say. Scripture disagrees again with your statement. Rev 20: 13 is the Great Whsite Thone judgement. All the dead,not some of the dead, stand before Him, and books were opened. And another book is opened, the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works. Paul states the same in Rom 2:6-8,

But those in Christ, are not dead. they were born again, they were made alive.

I will be judged at the bema seat. not at the great white throne. No one who is at the great white throne will get by unscathed. they will ALL go to hell

 

[Rightglory]

Death has not been defeated. People die all the time.

Yes, for the purpose of ridding our mortal natures of sin. So they can be raised immortal. Heb 9:27. You really have a very difficult time understanding theology.

Negative. Only Jesus' followers will be raised.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies.

Not everyone has the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwelling in them.

No but everyone was raised by His Spirit from the dead. The context here is Paul is speaking to and about believers. That does not negate what Paul says in I Cor 15:12-22. 53-54, and while we are at it, Rev 20:11-13,

Yes, a new physical nature. It's called "glorification."

It is part of it for believers, but all men will also be raised immortal and incorruptible.

Hell is only temporary. The permanent condition of the damned is destruction.

Hell is eternal. Destruction means the destruction of ones relationship with God.

No. You don't know the background behind the phrase. It addresses the debate among early believers who questioned whether a person needed to convert to Judaism and keep Moses to please God. The answer is that the cross of Christ applies to both Jewish believers and Gentile believers.

Yes, and the world. it is difficult to find any particularism in the text. when it includes all things, in heaven and on earth, to reconcile all things to Himself.+-

 

[Rightglory]

But those in Christ, are not dead. they were born again, they were made alive.

I will be judged at the bema seat. not at the great white throne. No one who is at the great white throne will get by unscathed. they will ALL go to hell

So you just disregard scripture to the contrary.

 

[Behold]

All the dead,not some of the dead, stand before Him,

The Born again are not "dead".

Jesus said of these....."i came to give you LIFE, and that more Abundantly "..

Jesus said...>"all that BELIEVE IN ME>.. i give unto you Eternal LIFE, and you shall never go to Hell, (perish)..


So, you just stated that Abundant life and Eternal Life, are "dead".

My advice to you, is to leave your CULT's Teaching.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you just disregard scripture to the contrary.

Actually I would say you do

Again, read Rev 20

Death and hades are delivered

then death and hades are cast into the lake of fire. The second death.

I have been made alive in christ.. You may be dead,, But I am not. And I will pray you come to life by trusting Christ before it is too late

 

[Rightglory]

'""""""Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ."""""

This is not "all men" as "all have not faith in Christ"..

So, you @Rightglory , are teaching that everyone is born again.

That is your error in understanding the meaning of words and context,. Check the meaning of quickened?

That's a lie.
Just ask the people who went to Hell, this very day, if "all" were quickened.

Yes, they were otherwise they would not be in hell. They would no longer exist.