A small rapture?

[Behold]

So what is the "Wrath" we are to avoid?

John 3:36

 

[Randy Kluth]

John 3:36

John 3.36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

That's an interesting quote you use to define God's "Wrath." It sounds like it is something that has been potentially on Man from the beginning, when Adam and Eve sinned. So, if we indulge our sinful nature, then God's Wrath rests upon us? And if men reject Christ, then God's Wrath "remains" on them?

Is that how you see it? If so, how would you apply this in an eschatological context? Is God's "Wrath" the act of judging the Antichristian Empire, designed to take them to the Lake of Fire? Or is it simply dying in a conflagration that God puts the world through at Armageddon?

Personally, I think good people who are truly innocent will die at Armageddon, which I believe will be a nuclear war. God's Wrath, in that context, will mean that those who die in rebellion are suffering God's Wrath, whereas those who die innocently are simply victims of "friendly fire," as such. They are collateral damage in a war that is not aimed at them, but only results in a future resurrection for those who have accepted Christ.

I'd be interested to hear your take on it?

 

[Behold]

John 3.36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

Thats the "wrath".
And Jesus died on the Cross so that you dont have to face it after you die.

See, when that "wrath" has been poured out on Jesus on the Cross for the sin of all Believers, then this explains why the Born again die and meet God as FATHER, and the unbelievers, never born again, meet God as eternal Judge.

That's an interesting quote you use to define God's "Wrath." It sounds like it is something that has been potentially on Man from the beginning, when Adam and Eve sinned.

The wrath of God is revealed against sin, both on the earth and also .. in eternity.

Examples of God's write on the Earth......

"noah's flood
"sodom and Gomorrah"
"great Tribulation"
"the 2nd advent"

People who write books and have TV programs that try to insult the Cross... it can be that they end up dying, soon afterwards.

"God is not mocked".

In Fact Jesus will rebuke a believer for being so deceived that they preach against the Cross.

also, God will reward a person, unbeliever or believer... who cheats against a Christian regarding doing business (money)...
= "Ananias and Sapphira"

And then there is after you die, eternal judgment.... that is John 3:36. = That one is for Christ Rejectors, who were never born again.

That judgement comes to those who have committed the unpardonable sin, and their name is not found in the "Lamb's book of Life".

Who are thy?

These...

"if you willfully sin".. and "trod underfoot the blood of Jesus"... as "doing despite to the spirit of Grace":

See that sin?
That is....>rejected Christ and died never born again.

You can find them in Hebrews and in Acts 28:28, as its the same group.

That's the unpardonable sin..they are committing.... .as you can't be pardoned in eternity if you reject Christ who is the Eternal Pardon.

So, if we indulge our sinful nature, then God's Wrath rests upon us?

Most Netflix shows are full of sex, lust, porn.
Most USA Christians, and many others watch Netflix and in fact pay every month to get more of it into their eyes and heart.

""Game of Thrones""", was a very erotic and sensually filthy show that most Christians watched for years.

So, its no mystery to God that when a "christian" is watching this type of " carnal product" they are not at the same time "living for the Lord and presenting their body as a living sacrifice to God".

Are they going to hell ?
No.
They are just very carnal christians.
Useless.
But they can often talk a game of theology, that is JUNK

And if men reject Christ, then God's Wrath "remains" on them?

Only God's forgiveness redeems you from being a Christ rejector.
So, to get that off of you, you have to trust in Christ and be forgiven by God... as that removes the wrath of God that every unbeliever is under, as you read this..

See, all unbelievers are currently DAMNED and are waiting to die and go to hell.

Salvation in Christ, takes that away..

Is that how you see it? If so, how would you apply this in an eschatological context? Is God's "Wrath" the act of judging the Antichristian Empire,

That particular earthly Judgment, that is the Great Trib and the 2nd Advent, found... is :

2 Thessalonians 1-8-9.

Personally, I think good people who are truly innocent will die at Armageddon,

"there are none good, no not one"

why?
Because "all have sinned"..

So, here is how to see that..

Maybe as compared to me, you are good, but as compared to Christ.... you behavior is never good, no matter how good you think you are, at any time..

And if you think that your "giving to the poor,, and trying not to lie..... and sitting in the front pew,.... and trying to be some imitation of Christ... is proof you are good, then just compare it to Jesus who is The Holiness of God that makes the sun seem like an iceberg with regards to HEAT.

See, when God burned the Homosexual in Sodom & Gomorrah, its described as fire and brimstone, as that is how its DESCRIBED by a human under inspiration of the Spirit, who is trying to describe it with WORDS>

What was it really? ??

God simply allowed His Holiness to touch them in a way that was wrath.

Believers often dont realize that God is not just Love....but God is HOLY.

Right now... today, tomorrow...You can go to sodom and gomorrah , and see the BLACK ASH in the rock, where the heat of God's Holiness scorched their sodomy and perversion completely away.

"its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" as a Christ Rejector, most of all.

which I believe will be a nuclear war.

War is a form of dealing with sin and rebellion and unbelief.

War now and Hell later.

 

[Reddsta]

That is partially it. That concept is not as outwardly, behaviorally, mindfully realized when we become Christians. God sanctifies us spiritually in an instant, but gradually in our minds and behavior.

Well I think that I can understand your words here Ronald…and I understand the process of spiritual maturity in discernment for sure.

We grow spiritually and we don't walk in the Spirit.
But listen, a teaching about "sarx" and how it wars against our spirit is an advanced study that I cannot simply describe in a few sentences.

Realistically Ronald...one has to walk in the spirit to grow spiritually.

Ok let me take a crack at it Ronald…Let’s deconstruct what Paul actually meant in Romans 6:1-14…it’s worth it…but we need to roll all the way through it.

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? (2)May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Rhetoric? It is as though he is saying that if one has died to sin…he no longer lives in sin. How could that ever be? Well brother Paul kicks that up in the next couple of verses.

(3)Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Surely Paul is speaking of the physical “death” of the Lord Yahshua Christ…and that through faith and obedience to the Holy Spirit…symbolically via repentance and baptism we are partakers of His death and burial…we have participated in death itself…His and our own. So then…as he says in verse 2…“How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” The implication is that we don’t…moving on…

(4)Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, [our symbolic death and burial] so that as Christ was raised from the dead [His resurrection] through the glory of the Father, [as Christ was raised from the dead by His Father] so we too might walk in newness of life. [We are raised from the dead into “newness” of life by His Father]

So through being baptized into Christ…we were buried with Him and resurrected as He was resurrected. Here is where we begin to walk in the “newness of life”…what is that “new life?” We begin to learn how to walk by the spirit as infants Ronald.

(5)For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, [“we” speaking of the sons of God] certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [this is our symbolic death, burial, and resurrection] (6)knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, [the sinful person we used to be was crucified…dead…and buried] in order that our body of sin might be done away with, [separating us from our sin] so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [now sin would no longer rule over us.]

(7)for he who has died is freed from sin. [In our obedient symbolic participation of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord…He frees us from the power of sin] (8)Now if we have died with Christ, [which we did…] we believe that we shall also live with Him, [“live with Him” Ronald…alive with and in Him…something we did not have prior] (9)knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.” [Alive in Him…raised from the dead in Him…never to die again…that is “eternal life”…death can no longer hold Him and by extension we who are in Christ…we need never be “spiritually dead – meaning eternally separated from God” again.]

Of course our “flesh” must die…however because of the Holy Spirit with in the spirit of the sons of God…our spirit and soul will never be subject to the condemnation of spiritual death…defined as eternal separation from God…again.

Let’s continue on here in Romans 6 with Paul…”(10) For the death that He died, [Yahshua] He died to sin once for all; [this is the redemption from “for in Adam all died”] but the life that He lives, He lives to God. (11) Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, [we are no longer in sin…it is no longer in control of us] but alive to God in Christ Jesus. [To those in Christ…consider yourselves dead to that old sin nature…and alive to God in the Holy Spirit to live eternally]

(12) Therefore do not let sin [fleshly old nature] reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, [Now you have been set free from the bondage of sin and death…so you must learn from the Holy Spirit how to live in and by the Spirit…that you were “born again” into] (13) and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; [grow up in the spirit] but present yourselves to God as those alive [God sees us as “alive” to Him as He sees the Lord Yahshua alive to Him] from the dead, [Our Father sees us as he sees Christ] and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [They that worship God must worship Him in Spirit and Truth] (14) For sin shall not be master over you, [by His Holy Spirit in your spirit…you learn to overcome sin because you are free from it] for you are not under law but under grace.” [The law of sin and death is no longer your master…you now have your existence in the eternal Christ...you live in "grace."] Rom 6:10-14 NASB

Once we are born again Ronald and filled with the Holy Spirit…our dwelling…our abode…our existence spiritually is in the “Spirit Kingdom of the Lord Yahshua Christ”…continually…on the earth...it is our house…we are the sons of God…we are the temple of the living God in which he dwells. This is a teaching about the “sarx” in a bit more than a few sentences Ronald.

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

"Sin dwells in the members of our flesh" is a reality and scriptural. We are no longer slaves to it and have been forgiven, but itndoesn't mean we don't backslide into our old ways.

Agreed brother…however just as important is the reality that those who died to sin…were buried in baptism…resurrected by the same Spirit that resurrected our Lord…to the same eternal life…have obtained the power and authority to overcome the flesh and as a result are dead to sin…exactly as Paul teaches. As Paul said we are no longer under the law…we are under grace.

In our close loving personal relationship with the Lord Yahshua Christ…in the house of our God and Father we are raised to overcome our old sin nature without the a separation from God due to the wages of sin. This is the grace vs. law Paul was talking about.

This is why we are encouraged over and over again because our behavior doesn't all of a sudden become perfect. Paul wrestled with this in Romans 7. "I do the things I do not want to do ... it is not me but sin that dwells in me. It is conflicting to begin with but then be ones more manageable ... but decades later, and I still think selfishly sometimes, still impatient, and sometimes when I am called to love my neighbor, I say no, not today. I don't feel like the
Good Samaitan ALL THE TIME. So that is a mild war that goes on, to love or not to love.

I agree with this that you speak of Ronald…however…if nothing can separate us from our Father…as we live in His almighty presence…at what point did your failure even once remove you from His presence, His house, His body, His temple, Him?

It is righteousness that is imputed to us Ronald...due to grace that displaced the law for us. You are never removed from the Spirit realm to which you were resurrected friend…not unless you become rebellious, disobedient, and unbelieving…that will bring consequences for sure.

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

Lol. Already saved but not yet fully redeemed and not yet glorified.

What’s left to be redeemed? Are you saying we only have a partial redemption in this life on earth? For those “in Christ”…how is it that they “are”…”in Christ” and not fully redeemed Ronald?

Similarly as for “not yet glorified”…I will say this…”in Christ” we are glorified…because He is glorified. How is it that one is “in Christ” but not glorified?

This is a spiritual truth Ronald…no flesh can be glorified for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God…however in the Spirit kingdom of God…we are glorified in the eyes of the heavenly God and Father of creation…simply because…when He see us who are “in Christ”…He sees His Son…"Christ Yahshua”…who has been glorified. This is the concept of principal of “propitiation.

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

We haven't been resurrected like Christ yet.

I disagree…while it is true that the flesh will never be resurrected…nor was Christ’s…flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God…when the Holy Spirit came into my spirit I was resurrected spiritually like Christ by the exact same power and authority that resurrected Christ Yahshua no less.

For I am now…in Christ…how does one become one with Christ and spiritually “in Christ” without a spiritual resurrection? None can be “in Christ” in the flesh so if one is resurrected it is into Christ. This is what Paul is saying. We are partakers of Christs resurrection via our new birth experience and the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

“For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, [Speaking of our on the earth new birth experience] certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [Speaking of our on the earth new birth experience] (6) knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him [Speaking of our on the earth new birth experience] in order that our body of sin might be done away with, [Speaking of our on the earth new birth experience] so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [In this life…as a result of our on the earth new birth experience] (7) for he who has died is freed from sin.” [In this life…as a result of our on the earth new birth experience] Rom 6:5-7 NASB

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

Do you have your new eternal body yet? NO.

No…in this I must agree with you…thankfully I have been given the down payment…the Holy Spirit.

We are freed from the bondage of sin. We don't practice it. But we often do the same things non- believers do. Is it sin for them and not for us?

How is it you say “we are freed from the bondage of sin”…and that “we don’t practice it” (sin)…then allude to the idea that we are “no different” in our failure than those given to the bondage of sin? This would mean that our new birth experience and our spiritual citizenship in the heavenly Kingdom of our Father would confer no greater advantage for us than that of an unjustified sinner.

Non-believers…the carnal and worldly…are enslaved to sin and the condemnation of the devil…and will suffer death…the eternal separation from God…as a result.

I am not suggesting that we…or I…am perfect...however…in God's “grace” towards His family in His house...as a loving Father does not treat His son's failures as he does the sin of the wicked friend...it could never be…no…our debt to sin is paid in full. No…our Father looks at us as His son…in deed sees us “in Christ” as His son…in who was no sin…and He disciplines us in love so that we grow up into His image and likeness. He does not condemn us to the wages of sin…death…he does not treat us as He treats those in sin.

Sin is the judgment for the lawless Ronald…that is exactly who the law is applied to…the lawless…for it is the law that exposes and condemns one in their sin…we should understand this by now.

Redd...:)

 

[O'Darby]

A small rapture?
I was taught a Pretrib Rapture in the early 70s by friends and the church I began to attend. But I had been raised in church from birth where no such thing ever existed. Since this was new to me, and held by all my new Christian friends, I thought Pretribism was the way to go.

Hal Lindsey had written a book called "The Late Great Planet Earth," and was taking the "world by storm." Lindsey was out of Dallas Theological Seminary, I believe, where they all taught Dispensationalism, which contains Pretrib Doctrine.

So I watched the movies that depicted Christians suddenly disappearing, leaving their cars and planes unattended, and maybe even leaving their clothes behind. And the world "left behind" seemed caught unprepared and unaware of what just happened.

So the world came up with some idea to explain how so many people ended up disappearing--perhaps an alien invasion? And they then proceeded to become terribly ungodly and antichristian since the Christians of the world had gone away, leaving backsliders and pagans in charge.

Not long after becoming Pretrib my brother started harping on me about the need to memorize Scripture. He had participated in Bill Gothard's course on Bible memorization and wanted to pass that on to me. After preaching to me for a half hour or so I decided maybe I should try to memorize some Scripture.

To my surprise memorization came easy for me. Before I knew it I had memorized a few entire books of the NT. 1 John, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were were I started. I probably memorized half of the book of Revelation before I got a stopped doing this.

In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!* He said that the Rapture cannot take place until Antichrist is actually destroyed at the Coming of Jesus! And in his time Antichrist had not come yet.

From this point on I've been Postrib. I had a moment of doubt when I moved to S. CA in the mid-70s, after reading Chuck Smith's Commentary on the Revelation. But after some unusual circumstances I was led, I believe, back to full acceptance of Postrib Doctrine, and determined never again to doubt what my 2 eyes are telling me! ;)

I say all this to explain this post. I still believe a Rapture will happen. But will it have the same strange phenomena happen as with the Pretrib scenarios, with people disappearing and the world left trying to explain where people went? This seems all so mythical to me, so fable-like! I'm a bit embarrassed to present the Gospel with things so unlikely, though the resurrectiton is equally a miracle but far more likely in my thinking.

I'm wondering if maybe the real Rapture will be unlike how the Pretrib movies portray it? Jesus said that when he comes will he find faith on the earth? This means that though Nominal Christianity is ubiquitous and common, genuine born again Christianity will not be so apparent, and may not exist as such except in dark corners of the earth.

If so, the Rapture may be more of an unseen event, as though happening when most of the world is hunkered down in bomb shelters during a nuclear war, rather than driving cars and piloting planes. If you look at the account of Elijah's "Rapture" he is even searched for, being that the event is far more subtle than a large-scale disappearance.

Perhaps the real Rapture will be confined to much smaller numbers in a time when religion is on the way out, and born again Christianity is so marginalized that it is no longer part of the mainstream? This may be a ways off, but the way things are going now I can see it happening. Large groups of Christians are being exposed as frauds, and antichristianity is taking over the world, pushing true Christians out of the way. Your thoughts?

2 Kings 2.9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
“Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.”
...16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.” “No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”

I was active with Campus Crusade in 1970-72 when rapture mania was in full bloom. I well-remember the Hal Lindsey nonsense. He had to do so much tap-dancing away from his ever-changing prophecies it became pathetic. We were assured in Crusade the rapture was right around the corner. JFK was being kept alive on Onassis' yacht and would be the beast whose seemingly mortal head wound was miraculously healed (the reference is actually to Nero, who was the subject of rumors at the time). I later listened to the entire Left Behind CD series, which was loaned to me by an atheist friend who found it fascinating strictly as science fiction!

I thought at the time all Christians believed in the rapture as taught by Crusade. If you happened to be flying an airplane or sitting on the toilet, no worries because all that would magically be taken care of. What???

The doctrine makes sense only from a Dispensationalist perspective, whereby it is the end of the Church Age and the ushering in of the Millennial Kingdom when Israel is restored. I often listen to Jan Markell, whom I refer to around the house as the Rapture Lady, just because I find her obsession so bizarre it's entertaining: Home - Olive Tree Ministries I now believe rapture mania is mostly nonsense. If there is anything resembling a rapture, it will be at the one and only Second Coming. However, "coming on the clouds" was a common way of referring to divine manifestations, and I doubt seriously the Second Coming is going to be anything like the literalists picture.

The obsession with Revelation and the pre-trib/post-trib debate does not even enter into my thinking. You may know that post-trib thinking predominated before everything went to pot with the two World Wars, whereupon the notion that we were actually in the Millennium began to look a little silly. Voila, pre-trib took the stage.

For those who aren't familiar with them, the scholarly (but not excessively scholarly) "multi-view" books are invaluable to help think through these issues and to see what extremely different views first-class NT scholars can hold. These from the excellent Counterpoints series are all pertinent:

Four Views on the Book of Revelation Amazon.com​

Three Views on the Rapture: Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation Amazon.com​

Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond Amazon.com​

 

[Keraz]

strictly as science fiction!

That is what the 'rapture to heaven' belief is.
It is a fable, that Paul said many would fall for; 2 Timothy 4:3-4 Belief in a rapture is a serious mistake and leads to complacency, it means people are unaware and unready for what the Lord actually does intend to do.
When the Lords Day of wrath comes, people will stand helplessly, not knowing which way to turn, Luke 21;25-26

 

[Reddsta]

Its "questionable" to you, you mean,

According to your opinion.

Yes of course…Behold…my opinion…an “opinion” that I formed by revelation and the study of a previous type and shadow of the same…something pointing to how God has poured out His wrath in another place and time on the earth…and recorded it for us in scripture…something like using the scripture to interpret the scripture…do you do that? Are you familiar with the story…may I ask?

But, if you realize that God's wrath is on UNBELIEVERS..

JOHN 3:36

NOT the Bride.
Not the Body of Christ
Not the Born again.

I do realize this…that was the point behind me showing you an example of “God’s wrath” being poured out once already…and how things played out in that earlier iteration of a similar act of the eternal God upon the earth. He only pours His wrath upon the wicked…with His people right there as well…exactly as in the Egyptian scenario…I would expect it to always be like that with a Just God and Father.

However…His people were right there when His wrath came forth…they were unscathed basically…though it had to have been terrifying one would think?

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

See, God poured out the "cup" on Jesus, who said..>"if possible let this CUP, pass from ME".

See that Cup?
That is God's Judgment against Sin.. And If fell on Jesus, never will it fall on the Born again.

The Born again will never be Judged by God's Wrath........not on earth and not in eternity.

God does not pour out His Wrath on those who are "IN Christ"... "one with God" and already """seated in Heavenly places in Christ".

Who is that?

All the born again.

Are you one?

So, the WRATH to come, is not going to fall on The Sons/Daughter's of God, who were born again before the Trib started.

My contention with you at this point is the fact that here in this post you seemed to have conveniently overlooked a small portion of what you said in your first post…which is what prompted my response in the first place. May I quote you…Behold…?

When Jesus comes back to take vengeance on "those who obey not the Gospel".

(They have not believed it)....

So, why would the BELIEVERS need to be here for that?

A.) They aren't.

Ok…so we have already established that I agree with a part of your post…”God won’t pour out His wrath upon believers”…You then ask a rhetorical question…”So why would BELIEVERS need to be here for that? To which you answered for yourself…”They aren’t.”

Fine believe as you have been taught…that’s fine by me…however to use the premise that because God will never pour out His wrath upon His people or BELIEVERS as you put it…to justify the statement that this proves that there won’t be any believers on the earth where and when God is pouring out His wrath…is not a valid conclusion…and my opinion is based in scripture itself…as I showed you Behold.

Further…you did not answer my questions directed at you friend…why?

So in your esteemed opinion…Behold…to see if you are really paying attention or if you just like spouting off like one who has OD’d on high octane energy drinks…when is it that those who are born again are actually seated in the heavenly places “in Christ”…as you put it?

Redd...:)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thats the "wrath".
And Jesus died on the Cross so that you dont have to face it after you die.

See, when that "wrath" has been poured out on Jesus on the Cross for the sin of all Believers, then this explains why the Born again die and meet God as FATHER, and the unbelievers, never born again, meet God as eternal Judge.



The wrath of God is revealed against sin, both on the earth and also .. in eternity.

Examples of God's write on the Earth......

"noah's flood
"sodom and Gomorrah"
"great Tribulation"
"the 2nd advent"

People who write books and have TV programs that try to insult the Cross... it can be that they end up dying, soon afterwards.

"God is not mocked".

In Fact Jesus will rebuke a believer for being so deceived that they preach against the Cross.

also, God will reward a person, unbeliever or believer... who cheats against a Christian regarding doing business (money)...
= "Ananias and Sapphira"

And then there is after you die, eternal judgment.... that is John 3:36. = That one is for Christ Rejectors, who were never born again.

That judgement comes to those who have committed the unpardonable sin, and their name is not found in the "Lamb's book of Life".

Who are thy?

These...

"if you willfully sin".. and "trod underfoot the blood of Jesus"... as "doing despite to the spirit of Grace":

See that sin?
That is....>rejected Christ and died never born again.

You can find them in Hebrews and in Acts 28:28, as its the same group.

That's the unpardonable sin..they are committing.... .as you can't be pardoned in eternity if you reject Christ who is the Eternal Pardon.



Most Netflix shows are full of sex, lust, porn.
Most USA Christians, and many others watch Netflix and in fact pay every month to get more of it into their eyes and heart.

""Game of Thrones""", was a very erotic and sensually filthy show that most Christians watched for years.

So, its no mystery to God that when a "christian" is watching this type of " carnal product" they are not at the same time "living for the Lord and presenting their body as a living sacrifice to God".

Are they going to hell ?
No.
They are just very carnal christians.
Useless.
But they can often talk a game of theology, that is JUNK



Only God's forgiveness redeems you from being a Christ rejector.
So, to get that off of you, you have to trust in Christ and be forgiven by God... as that removes the wrath of God that every unbeliever is under, as you read this..

See, all unbelievers are currently DAMNED and are waiting to die and go to hell.

Salvation in Christ, takes that away..




That particular earthly Judgment, that is the Great Trib and the 2nd Advent, found... is :

2 Thessalonians 1-8-9.




"there are none good, no not one"

why?
Because "all have sinned"..

So, here is how to see that..

Maybe as compared to me, you are good, but as compared to Christ.... you behavior is never good, no matter how good you think you are, at any time..

And if you think that your "giving to the poor,, and trying not to lie..... and sitting in the front pew,.... and trying to be some imitation of Christ... is proof you are good, then just compare it to Jesus who is The Holiness of God that makes the sun seem like an iceberg with regards to HEAT.

See, when God burned the Homosexual in Sodom & Gomorrah, its described as fire and brimstone, as that is how its DESCRIBED by a human under inspiration of the Spirit, who is trying to describe it with WORDS>

What was it really? ??

God simply allowed His Holiness to touch them in a way that was wrath.

Believers often dont realize that God is not just Love....but God is HOLY.

Right now... today, tomorrow...You can go to sodom and gomorrah , and see the BLACK ASH in the rock, where the heat of God's Holiness scorched their sodomy and perversion completely away.

"its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" as a Christ Rejector, most of all.




War is a form of dealing with sin and rebellion and unbelief.

War now and Hell later.

Thank you for the extended answer. Though we have "spats," now and then, I think we're pretty much agreed on your points.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I was active with Campus Crusade in 1970-72 when rapture mania was in full bloom. I well-remember the Hal Lindsey nonsense. He had to do so much tap-dancing away from his ever-changing prophecies it became pathetic. We were assured in Crusade the rapture was right around the corner. JFK was being kept alive on Onassis' yacht and would be the beast whose seemingly mortal head wound was miraculously healed (the reference is actually to Nero, who was the subject of rumors at the time). I later listened to the entire Left Behind CD series, which was loaned to me by an atheist friend who found it fascinating strictly as science fiction!

I thought at the time all Christians believed in the rapture as taught by Crusade. If you happened to be flying an airplane or sitting on the toilet, no worries because all that would magically be taken care of. What???

The doctrine makes sense only from a Dispensationalist perspective, whereby it is the end of the Church Age and the ushering in of the Millennial Kingdom when Israel is restored. I often listen to Jan Markell, whom I refer to around the house as the Rapture Lady, just because I find her obsession so bizarre it's entertaining: Home - Olive Tree Ministries I now believe rapture mania is mostly nonsense. If there is anything resembling a rapture, it will be at the one and only Second Coming. However, "coming on the clouds" was a common way of referring to divine manifestations, and I doubt seriously the Second Coming is going to be anything like the literalists picture.

The obsession with Revelation and the pre-trib/post-trib debate does not even enter into my thinking. You may know that post-trib thinking predominated before everything went to pot with the two World Wars, whereupon the notion that we were actually in the Millennium began to look a little silly. Voila, pre-trib took the stage.

For those who aren't familiar with them, the scholarly (but not excessively scholarly) "multi-view" books are invaluable to help think through these issues and to see what extremely different views first-class NT scholars can hold. These from the excellent Counterpoints series are all pertinent:

Four Views on the Book of Revelation Amazon.com​

Three Views on the Rapture: Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation Amazon.com​

Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond Amazon.com​

I'll be happy to read those books---I'm pretty sure I already read the 1st one. I emailed Robert Gundry, the author of "The Church and the Tribulation." It is one of two classic theological works on the Postrib view, exposing the Pretrib view.

I asked Gundry if there were any recent good works on this, and he said there wasn't much, but there is some. I can't remember who he recommended--I'll look it up, if I still have it. This was about a year or two ago.

Pretrib dominates in the bookstores because it's like astrology--people want to know what's next, if the Antichrist is already here. People like the drama and the sensationalism, which Pretrib has a monopoly on. ;)

Thanks for sharing! :)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” The use of the term “beginning” indicates that it has a “starting point”…here referring to the creation of the “heavens and earth.” Ok…so if it has a “starting point”…how can it be eternal...which has no beginning or ending? If it is not eternal…then just as sure as it has a “beginning…it has an ending”...agree?

The "beginning" is the starting point of the physical Universe, not where He dwells. That first sentence is an introduction to what is created in Genesis 1-3 : earth, light, sun, moon, stars, botanicals, fish, insects, animals, Adam and Eve. Genesis does not speak of His residence - or do you think Elohim was just floating around in the all nothingness? Of course Spiritual Heaven existed prior to "the beginning". Eternity has no beginning.

He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)” Ephesians 4:10 NASB

So if He is far above the heavens (that we physically see), then He logically traveled beyond His physical creation. Where? Where the Father and angels are.

let’s not turn it once again into a mystery

Well, the Bible only reveals so much. There are mysteries. We know in part.

I have never said to you or anyone I know…that we are “Jesus” as it would seem you are insinuating Ronald…is that you’re regularly encountered gift of “suspicion” at work again? You really need to look at that…wh

Well, the way you express yourself sometimes, may seem clear to you, but is conflicting:
Case in point - your words:
"The predestined “spiritual sons of God” under the Headship of the Lord Yahshua Christ both on the earth and in the heavens constitutes the “spiritual man” known as “Christ” the son of God."

Is the Body of Christ part of (what constitutes) the spiritual man, Jesus?
Relationally.
He existed before us, He is God.
Being "in Christ" is a spiritual term referring to a close relationship along with billions of other souls - not the substance that constitutes Christ. This is another term that volumes can be written about. We are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, Who dwells in our spiritual compartment (if you will) aĺs He dwelled in the Most Holy Place in the Old Temples. The marriage between Jesus and His Bride is likened to the love we have for our spouses. We feel united, as one, yet we remain individuals.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, [Speaking of our on the earth new birth experience] certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [Speaking of our on the earth new birth experience] (6) knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him [Speaking of our on the earth new birth experience] in order that our body of sin might be done away with, [Speaking of our on the earth new birth experience] so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [In this life…as a result of our on the earth new birth experience] (7) for he who has died is freed from sin.” [In this life…as a result of our on the earth new birth experience] Rom 6:5-7 NASB

We have been born again, spiritually resurrected yet we did not physically die nor have we received a new resurrected eternal body like Jesus has [speaking of our "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet" change.]
"In sanctification, God, working especially by the Holy Spirit, separates the believer unto himself and makes him increasingly holy, progressively trasnforming him into the image of Christ by subduing the power of sin in his life and enabling him to bear the fruit of obedience in his life." J. MacArthur
But it is not finished yet.
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ". Phil. 1:6
"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself."
Phil. 3:20-21
"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
1 Cor. 15:52 ( same event in1 Thes. 4:16-17).

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

How is it you say “we are freed from the bondage of sin”…and that “we don’t practice it” (sin)…then allude to the idea that we are “no different” in our failure than those given to the bondage of sin?

We are "no different" in the act of sin. If we do the same as a non- believer who lies, steals, covets or chooses not to love someone in need, isn't it still a sin for us? We are sinners - who have been forgiven because we believe in Christ. John MacArthur quote above is applicable to this. We are a work in progress with flaws - saved though.

 

[Reddsta]

Thank you R.D. Bruno for taking the time to read me...we are working something here bro...the Lord is moving I guarantee it...keep'er moving...were doing great!

The "beginning" is the starting point of the physical Universe, not where He dwells. That first sentence is an introduction to what is created in Genesis 1-3 : earth, light, sun, moon, stars, botanicals, fish, insects, animals, Adam and Eve.

I like your first sentence..."The "beginning" is the starting point of the physical Universe, not where He dwells." Yeh...that is what I am saying...creation is called creation because it "was not and then it was"...it was created? Is God created...no way...God is outside of creation...clearly...as you have stated...but it says that the "heavens and the earth" were created designating their beginning.

So technically there was no "heavens or earth" until they were created in the beginning. Yet the eternal God surely existed? There was something before creation..."The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters."

Genesis does not speak of His residence - or do you think Elohim was just floating around in the all nothingness?

It may speak of His residence...let's look...I don't think it was nothingness Ronald...may seem like it...and I can see why you ask...there is actually a lot to the deconstruction of Genesis 1:2.

The "earth was formless and void" so perhaps...not in place or formed at that point yet...not really existent perhaps? It had no observable form and there was nothing to or on it...just existing in the "thought" of eternity Himself...as He related it to Moses...perhaps?

"Darkness was over the surface of the deep"...so it is like a "veil" over the "surface" of the "deep"...it does not say that the "deep" was darkness...but rather that the deep was "veiled" or in someway "cover/hidden." Like the veil on Moses face when coming down from the the summit of Sinai?

Then it says..."the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters"...so it would seem safe to say that it was something vs nothingness...God as eternity...and without a doubt His intention that would be coming forth in His desire...moving on the surface of the waters...perhaps we can define "waters?" Because what ever it was/is...it has the Spirit of God "Moving over it." Sometimes the "Word" is referred to as water?

My answer to your great question...Ronald...I am sensing that the God of eternity was never just nothing...without form or void...He was absolutely SOMETHING eternal...and He was outside of anything called "heaven or earth" my brother. He framed creation to bring forth His desire...however the immensity of the eternal God Himself could never be contained within His creation...right?

Perhaps that is why He desired to incarnate as a man...as His Spirit...then He could come into His creation? The Lord Yahshua Christ?

Redd...:)

 

[Keraz]

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
1 Cor. 15:52 ( same event in1 Thes. 4:16-17).

This is serious error.
I Corinthians 15:50-56, is a Prophecy about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment, to those whose names are found in the Book of Life.
Proved by how it is then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

There will be no people who have received Eternal life in the Millennium. There will still be births and death, Isaiah 65:20
ONLY after the thousand years have passed, will anyone receive immortality and be with God on earth for Eternity. Revelation 21-22

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Thank you R.D. Bruno for taking the time to read me...we are working something here bro...the Lord is moving I guarantee it...keep'er moving...were doing great!

I like your first sentence..."The "beginning" is the starting point of the physical Universe, not where He dwells." Yeh...that is what I am saying...creation is called creation because it "was not and then it was"...it was created? Is God created...no way...God is outside of creation...clearly...as you have stated...but it says that the "heavens and the earth" were created designating their beginning.

So technically there was no "heavens or earth" until they were created in the beginning. Yet the eternal God surely existed? There was something before creation..."The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters."

It may speak of His residence...let's look...I don't think it was nothingness Ronald...may seem like it...and I can see why you ask...there is actually a lot to the deconstruction of Genesis 1:2.

The "earth was formless and void" so perhaps...not in place or formed at that point yet...not really existent perhaps? It had no observable form and there was nothing to or on it...just existing in the "thought" of eternity Himself...as He related it to Moses...perhaps?

"Darkness was over the surface of the deep"...so it is like a "veil" over the "surface" of the "deep"...it does not say that the "deep" was darkness...but rather that the deep was "veiled" or in someway "cover/hidden." Like the veil on Moses face when coming down from the the summit of Sinai?

Then it says..."the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters"...so it would seem safe to say that it was something vs nothingness...God as eternity...and without a doubt His intention that would be coming forth in His desire...moving on the surface of the waters...perhaps we can define "waters?" Because what ever it was/is...it has the Spirit of God "Moving over it." Sometimes the "Word" is referred to as water?

My answer to your great question...Ronald...I am sensing that the God of eternity was never just nothing...without form or void...He was absolutely SOMETHING eternal...and He was outside of anything called "heaven or earth" my brother. He framed creation to bring forth His desire...however the immensity of the eternal God Himself could never be contained within His creation...right?

Perhaps that is why He desired to incarnate as a man...as His Spirit...then He could come into His creation? The Lord Yahshua Christ?

Redd...:)

Without form and void means just like a lump of clay with no life. Look at any of the other planets. They are round; but there's nothing really interesting about them, void. Then think of all the beauty on the earth. Quite a masterful design, from without form (design) and void to what we see today. He is just telling us He started with a crude lump of elements, water, then formed it.
Anyways, this is getting exhausting. I need to go on vacation and enjoy some of the beauty while it is still here.
Nice talking to you.