This is one of a great many places where God teaches His children that once we are born again, born from Him, that this is forever.
Much love!
What Is "Predestination"? How Does It Shape Your Daily Life?
- Thread starter GracePeace
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Much love!
Says who? For you, then, all this language about Christ being the husband, and the Church being Christ's bone and flesh (as Eve was Adam's flesh and bone--and don't forget Christ is the "Last Adam", which would make the Church the "Last Eve", and the Church is explicitly compared to Eve) is all just some weird "coincidence". LOL
One of the ways God relates to His people (today, that is only those who have obeyed God's Gospel) is as a Husband. Another way is as a Father. His people are His bride. Whoever His people are.
Your arguments aren't persuasive but are empty.
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I say this because Paul talks about having been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the earth, etc, yet he also says that people can fall away (eg, Ro 11:17). which might mean that IF someone remains in Christ, through faith and then walking in faith (Christ is "God Is Our Righteousness" Jer 23:6; Ro 1:17, so when we're remaining in Christ, there's no condemnation , Ro 8:1, but there is condemnation if we do not remain in Him by not acting in accordance with our (even imperfect) convictions Ro 14:5,23), they will have been incorporated into the eternal Christ, thus they were "always" with Christ... but this really undercuts the confidence a person can obtain through trusting that they were always with God and always will be with God (what John seemingly teaches). There is a valid explanation for what Paul is teaching--you're in the Book of Life, but if you are cut off, your righteousness is "forgotten", so "they would have remained with us if they were of us" is not violated, but is preserved... but, again, I don't know how to reconcile Paul's "predestination" and "before the foundation of the world you were chosen in Him" without these two arguments... but then it empties that doctrine of its meaning. Why even mention it if it really means nothing with respect to your every day life?
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BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
I wanted to add the passage in Proverbs.
16:9
9 A person[a] plans his course,[b]but the Lord directs[c] his steps.[d]
Footnotes
Proverbs 16:9 tn Heb “the mind of a man.” The term לֵב (lev, “mind, heart”) represents the person in this case (a synecdoche of a part for the whole) but highlights that faculty most relevant to the verb for planning.
Proverbs 16:9 tn Heb “his way” (so KJV, NASB).
Proverbs 16:9 tn The verb כּוּן (kun, “to establish; to confirm”) with צַעַד (tsaʿad, “step”) means “to direct” (e.g., Ps 119:133; Jer 10:23). This contrasts what people plan and what actually happens—God determines the latter.
Proverbs 16:9 sn “Steps” is an implied comparison, along with “way,” to indicate the events of the plan as they work out.
I'm saying you are stringing together some terms in ways they are not used in the Bible, linking the ideas you believe to be linked. Meanwhile, I'm pointing to the particular language in Scripture, very pointed language, leaving no ambiguity.
Much love!
It's not ambiguous.
How about "You are children of the LORD your God" (Dt 14:1)?
God related to His people, Israel, as Father.
When they became "Not My People", they were no longer His children (Hos 1).
Another way He related to His people, Israel, was Husband.
So, does God just arbitrarily choose to relate to us as a Father, but not relate to us as Husband?
Also...
Deuteronomy 32
21‘They have made Me jealous with what is not God;
They have provoked Me to anger with their idols.
So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people;
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,
...is emptied of its meaning.
God's people had made Him "jealous" by their getting other gods for themselves, so God planned to repay them in kind by making them "jealous" by getting another people for Himself.
God is married to His people, whoever they are. Israel is not special in that regard--they used to be His people, so He used to relate to them as a Husband.
To Israel, God was their husband, but has divorced her, and will re-wed her. This is clearly stated in the Bible.
With the NT church, marriage is used in several places as a simile of our relationship with God, while actually identifying us as His Own body. Israel was plainly identified as the wife of God, and just as plainly identified as the one divorced. The promise to rewed was plainly given to Israel, that is, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
It's only when you conclude that the NT church is identified as Israel that there becomes confusion, because then you are blending identities that are not blended in Scripture.
There simply is no "Spiritual Israel" that includes others than the faithful remnent of Israel, the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Much love!
No, you're attacking a strawman. I guess you've been in this discussion so many times before that you assume things. I never said the Church (which includes lots of believing Jews) was Israel--Romans 11 refers to unbelieving Israel being "blinded", so why would I want the Church to be that Israel?
You're not saying anything I need to defend against when you say that Israel was wed to God and will be re-wed to God in the future--that is exactly what I'm saying when I say that they were God's people and will one day be God's people again.
I don't care if you agree the Church is "the Israel of God" (Gal 6) or not--it's irrelevant, because whoever God's people are, God relates to as His bride.
Again, for you, the language of Christ being husband, and the Church being his bone and flesh, his wife (as husbands are to consider their wives their own bodies--"no one hated his own body"), is all just a "coincidence"--nonsense, of course.
Anyway, you're not going to come around to the truth, and that's fine with me.
It's not important for the conversation.
Maybe I'm getting mixed up between things you yourself think, and things you've repeated of other people's arguments, I don't know.
So then you believe all remaining alive of ethnic Israel will be saved when Jesus comes?
Much love!
I'm not sure how it's going to work out, but the mainstream reading of Romans 11, and what seems reasonable, is that the Jews will once again be God's people/married to God, which actually goes back to Hosea 1.
No, not coincidence, only, I closely follow the grammar, and stick with the very things it says. It says in particular, Israel was wed to God, is now divorced, and will be re-wed. Meanwhile the church is called Jesus' body, and is compared with a bride.
Much love!
No, I think because I said I believe there are two Israels (and, actually, Christian apologists cannot win arguments against Jews on Isaiah 53 without that concept), you thought that I was saying the Church took the place of Israel and that God was done with Israel.
I don't think you follow the grammar closely enough--but again I want this part of the conversation to come to an end. We are beating a dead horse. You have made your mind up. Good. Stay that way. I'm not interested in exerting any more effort.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
The Laws of Nature predetermine our natural births, and our natural features.
Our spiritual birth occurs when God's Grace becomes available to us following the seed of the Gospel germinating in our hearts which are made fertile and receptive through various God-ordained ministrations.
I hate the foul, false doctrine of Predestined Reprobation with a passion.
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