What Is "Predestination"? How Does It Shape Your Daily Life?

[GracePeace]

You seem to still be equating knowing what will happen with making it happen.

I seem to spend a good part of our time together trying to convince you of the things I don't believe . . .

Much love!

No, I'm not equating those two things--just bc someone knows something will happen doesn't mean they mame it happen--I'm saying that predestination precipitating calling and justification is a logical argument people make, whereas you're going back to foreknowledge and defining that in a way that leads you to reject that view.

 

[GracePeace]

The church didn't exist in John's Gospel. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel.

I suggest reconsidering exactly whom this future wedding will involve. The bride has made herself ready. That applies to Israel, according to the prophecies, not to the church.

Much love!

1. Eve was within Adam, and only drawn out of his side later--as with Christ and the Church.

2. There's only one Church--called Christ's bride--and it's got lots of Jewish believers in it. Are they both Christ's bride and God the Father's bride, separately? Lol

 

[GracePeace]

The church didn't exist in John's Gospel. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel.

I suggest reconsidering exactly whom this future wedding will involve. The bride has made herself ready. That applies to Israel, according to the prophecies, not to the church.

Much love!

You're ignoring the significant commonality the Church and Israel share: the Church is God's People, and Israel used to be (and seemingly will once again because one day) God's People.

Apparently, one of the ways God relates to His people, apart from being a Father, is "husband".

 

[marks]

No, I'm not equating those two things--just bc someone knows something will happen doesn't mean they mame it happen--I'm saying that predestination precipitating calling and justification is a logical argument people make, whereas you're going back to foreknowledge and defining that in a way that leads you to reject that view.

Is this another "devil's advocate" thing?

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

@marks anyway this is related to some people interpreting "foreknew" that way--I actually don't know whether that is a valid interpretation or not, so the outcome of this (Church as Bride) doesn't matter that much to me.

 

[GracePeace]

Is this another "devil's advocate" thing?

Much love!

Yeah, I don't have a set in stone view, I'm presenting you with others' arguments.

 

[marks]

1. Eve was within Adam, and only drawn out of his side later--as with Christ and the Church.

2. There's only one Church--called Christ's bride--and it's got lots of Jewish believers in it. Are they both Christ's bride and God the Father's bride, separately? Lol

In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew. We are redefined.

Israel was divorced from God before this present time. Both Jews and Gentiles are being joined into Christ's body in the present time. In a time to come, Israel will be re-wed to God. I'll provide the passages which show these things if you want.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yeah, I don't have a set in stone view, I'm presenting you with others' arguments.

Thank you for clarifying that.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew. We are redefined.

Israel was divorced from God before this present time. Both Jews and Gentiles are being joined into Christ's body in the present time. In a time to come, Israel will be re-wed to God. I'll provide the passages which show these things if you want.

Much love!

Yeah, I'm already aware, we just disagree on interpretation--and, again, its not really that important to me.

 

[marks]

You're ignoring the significant commonality the Church and Israel share: the Church is God's People, and Israel used to be (and seemingly will once again because one day) God's People.

Apparently, one of the ways God relates to His people, apart from being a Father, is "husband".

Is this something you think, or are you presenting someone else's POV?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You're ignoring

No I'm not. I think differently about it.

To me, Israel is the physical descendants of Jacob. I know you include others.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Is this something you think, or are you presenting someone else's POV?

Much love!

No, that, to me, is something I actually believe--and again it's not worth more resources.

 

[GracePeace]

No I'm not. I think differently about it.

To me, Israel is the physical descendants of Jacob. I know you include others.

Much love!

OK.

No, I'm saying the basis of their having been "married" to God was their status of having been His People--it's one of the ways God relates to His People, but, in Hos 1, "You are not My people and I am not your God"--what believers are today.

 

[GracePeace]

No I'm not. I think differently about it.

To me, Israel is the physical descendants of Jacob. I know you include others.

Much love!

No, I think there are two Israels--a physical and a spiritual. Some Jews are part of both, some are only part of one... but that's not the topic.

 

[marks]

No, I'm saying the basis of their having been "married" to God was their status of having been His People

They were His people because He chose them, the Chosen Nation, from among all the other nations.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 KJV
6) For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 14:2 KJV
2) For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

The Spiritual fulfillment is here, as Peter addresses Christian Israelites:

1 Peter 2:9-10 KJV
9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Which was addressed to,

1 Peter 1:1 LITV
1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia,

The dispersion, the diaspora, these are the Israelites who were scattered - diaspora - to other lands. This is in harmony with:

Galatians 2:8-9 LITV
8) (for He working in Peter to an apostleship of the circumcision, also worked in me to the nations),
9) and knowing the grace given to me, James and Cephas and John, those seeming to be pillars, gave right hands of fellowship to Barnabas and to me, that we go to the nations, but they to the circumcision;

Paul, in Romans 9 presents the case for who is Israel, they are the children of Abraham, but not all the children, just those of promise, Isaac. And not all of Isaac's children, just the chosen. Paul adds to this that of them God has preserved Himself a remnent, who believe, and goes on to say all Israel will be saved.

This is an interesting thing considering Zechariah prophesied 2/3 of Israel will be killed in the time of affliction before Jesus comes. But 1/3 will remain, the faithful remnent. And so all Israel will be saved, because Israel is the believing children, the faithful remnent, of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

To Israel God was wed, and is now divorced, and will re-wed when "the bride has made herself ready"

Matthew 23:37-39 KJV
37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

OK thank you.

Would you please briefly share what your understanding of "predestined" is?

Okay, brief version:

"Predestination" is just a word used in scripture (by God) to give relevance to the passing of time wherein the revelation of all truth is disbursed to all involved from the beginning to the end of time, which is otherwise a false dichotomy (not really true, but an imposed limit to rule or explain the purpose of time) only to be fully understood at the end. In other words, the terms of eternity are actually what is true--but here we are on this timeline where truth from God only comes "here a little, there a little". Which is simply and temporarily imposed by God as the vehicle or media by which He has chosen to gracefully reveal all things to us as children needing milk first before solid food, and all things explained in parables for our young, adolescent, and developing minds. And yet, as a mere vehicle or means of delivering truth, it should not be considered the basis of truth. Truth according to God just always is--so this is the transition between the two, and "predestination" is just one of the words used to explain the dilemma of understanding time verses eternity while in the midst of time.

 

[GracePeace]

Okay, brief version:

"Predestination" is just a word used in scripture (by God) to give relevance to the passing of time wherein the revelation of all truth is disbursed to all involved from the beginning to the end of time, which is otherwise a false dichotomy (not really a true, but an imposed limit to rule or explain the the purpose of time) only to be fully understood at the end. In other words, the terms of eternity are actually what is true--but here we are on this timeline where truth from God only comes "here a little, there a little". Which is simply and temporarily imposed by God as the vehicle or media by which He has chosen to gracefully reveal all things to us as children needing milk first before solid food, and all things explained in parables for our young, adolescent, and developing minds. And yet, as a mere vehicle or means of delivering truth, it should not be considered the basis of truth. Truth according to God just always is--so this is the transition between the two, and "predestination" is just one of the words used to explain the dilemma of understanding time verses eternity while in the midst of time.

OK Thanks for sharing.

 

[GracePeace]

They were His people because He chose them, the Chosen Nation, from among all the other nations.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 KJV
6) For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7) The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8) But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 14:2 KJV
2) For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

The Spiritual fulfillment is here, as Peter addresses Christian Israelites:

1 Peter 2:9-10 KJV
9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Which was addressed to,

1 Peter 1:1 LITV
1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia,

The dispersion, the diaspora, these are the Israelites who were scattered - diaspora - to other lands. This is in harmony with:

Galatians 2:8-9 LITV
8) (for He working in Peter to an apostleship of the circumcision, also worked in me to the nations),
9) and knowing the grace given to me, James and Cephas and John, those seeming to be pillars, gave right hands of fellowship to Barnabas and to me, that we go to the nations, but they to the circumcision;

Paul, in Romans 9 presents the case for who is Israel, they are the children of Abraham, but not all the children, just those of promise, Isaac. And not all of Isaac's children, just the chosen. Paul adds to this that of them God has preserved Himself a remnent, who believe, and goes on to say all Israel will be saved.

This is an interesting thing considering Zechariah prophesied 2/3 of Israel will be killed in the time of affliction before Jesus comes. But 1/3 will remain, the faithful remnent. And so all Israel will be saved, because Israel is the believing children, the faithful remnent, of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

To Israel God was wed, and is now divorced, and will re-wed when "the bride has made herself ready"

Matthew 23:37-39 KJV
37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Much love!

Saying they're "married to God" is effectively saying they're "God's People"--they were "married", and will be again, just as they were "God's People", and will be again--in the meantime, God has added for Himself another people, to move the Jews to jealousy, and when the Jews return to God, they will be joining that people (Dt 32:21).

But, again, not that important here.

 

[GracePeace]

Another curious thing, perhaps related to "predestination" (after its conventional interpretation), is Jesus says His "true" disciples had been with Him "from the beginning" (Jn 15:27)

The statement is a bit ambiguous: Which "beginning"?

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God.

John 2
11This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

Then again, since there are preliminary and ultimate fulfillments (eg, "I will lose none" has a terrestrial, preliminary, fulfillment, in the disciples escaping when Jesus was arrested, yet, also, its ultimate fulfillment will be at the resurrection), it may refer to both.

 

[GracePeace]

@marks I can't find it right now, but I thought you said predestination gives you confidence about your ultimate destiny (to be conformed to Christ). You said that, right?