They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Timtofly]

I advise you to suspend your own beliefs while you attempt to understand mine.

You are the one changing Scripture. I don't have a belief to suspend. I fully understand that you think Jesus avoided the question. Obviously the only answer you think Jesus gave was they both are about to die.

The Roman soldiers also had that strong belief that both Jesus and the thief were about to die. You think Jesus was being subtle?

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, the first resurrection is the physical resurrection for all redeemed. You have a too narrow of a view on the first resurrection. Obviously it is not the second birth into God's spiritual kingdom. But one cannot be a restored son of God, in that kingdom in Paradise without a first, physical resurrection. That is the hope of life immediately after physical death. That first resurrection is the hope of every believer since that thief on that cross, that day.

Prior to the Cross, the redeemed only had hope in Abraham's bosom waiting as souls, for that first physical resurrection. Which also happened when they came out of their graves bodily, that day. That is the first resurrection. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life.

The kingdom is NOT in Paradise. Remember the Lord's prayer. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are the one changing Scripture. I don't have a belief to suspend. I fully understand that you think Jesus avoided the question. Obviously the only answer you think Jesus gave was they both are about to die.

The Roman soldiers also had that strong belief that both Jesus and the thief were about to die. You think Jesus was being subtle?

How am I changing scripture? Did I say that Jesus avoided the question? I don't think so. I think Jesus was being ironic.

 

[Timtofly]

I see why you believe this, but it isn't true. Remember, Jesus told Mary that he didn't go to God's paradise.

That is not what Jesus said. The body was about to ascend after the spirit and soul returned to that same body. You cannot prove all three, body, soul, and spirit were confined to the tomb.

As far as I can see, in Scripture, only the body was confined to the tomb. The spirit returned to God, ie Paradise. The soul went to Abraham's bosom, and immediately left with those who bodily came out of their graves. One can only guess when the spirit and soul rejoined the body, exactly.

 

[ewq1938]

Therefore, it is important to understand that Revelation 20 speaks exclusively about the resurrection of the martyrs, not about the resurrection of Jesus.

Yes, one must stick to the actual context of Rev 20 to realize this. Amill subverts the context, and inserts concepts not found in the text in order to manipulate the text into saying something it doesn't.

 

[Timtofly]

The kingdom is NOT in Paradise. Remember the Lord's prayer. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

Paradise is not in Paradise?

Do you think there are currently more redeemed souls on earth than in Paradise?

Remember we are talking about since Noah and the Flood, not just since the Cross. Do you think there are even 2.5 billion souls on earth who are actually redeemed on any given day of this year?

I don't remember you claiming to be amil, so obviously at the Second Coming, the kingdom on earth will be exactly like the kingdom in heaven. But currently that kingdom of heaven in Paradise more than likely has more there, than on the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

How am I changing scripture? Did I say that Jesus avoided the question? I don't think so. I think Jesus was being ironic.

Ironic that the thief did not make it into the same tomb?

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is not what Jesus said. The body was about to ascend after the spirit and soul returned to that same body. You cannot prove all three, body, soul, and spirit were confined to the tomb.

I am not convinced that the body, soul, and spirit can exist apart, despite your belief. I agree that Jesus entrusted his spirit to the Father while he hung on the cross. However, we don't know how the Father kept his spirit unharmed and pure. We know that when the women entered the tomb, they met angels. Presumably, the angels guarded the spirit of Jesus. I don't know this to be a fact, but this is a logical possibility.

The notion of a spirit or soul existing independently of the body is illogical.

I firmly believe that one's identity must encompass their body, soul, and spirit, as they collectively define who they are. When Jesus informed Mary that he had not yet ascended to the Father, he referred to his entire self.

As far as I can see, in Scripture, only the body was confined to the tomb. The spirit returned to God, ie Paradise. The soul went to Abraham's bosom, and immediately left with those who bodily came out of their graves. One can only guess when the spirit and soul rejoined the body, exactly.

We have no Biblical evidence that Jesus' spirit returned to God. In addition, you are incorrect that Abraham's bosom is the same place as God's Paradise. The two locations are much different. And I am not convinced that Abraham's bosom is a real place.

As per Josephus, the Jewish community believed in a place between heaven and hell that they named Abraham's bosom. The Greeks referred to it as "Hades." Here, the souls of the departed awaited the Day of Judgment. Abraham's bosom was divided into two compartments based on Jewish beliefs - one for the righteous dead, and the other for the unrighteous dead.

I am not aware of the origin of Jewish mythology, but there is no scriptural evidence that supports the existence of a place called Abraham's bosom. Jesus used this myth to emphasize the importance of believing in the law. However, we have no Biblical evidence to support the idea that Jesus believed such a place actually existed.

When Jesus says that he did not ascend to the Father, he means that literally.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paradise is not in Paradise?

The Jewish people borrowed the word "paradise" from the Persians. It originally referred to a walled enclosure. Xenophon and others used the Greek word for an orchard or a royal hunting park in Persia. It was taken in Septuagint to mean "the garden of Eden." Most Christians believe that Luke 23:43 refers to the abode of the righteous dead.

Given this word has a wide range of meanings, we should not jump to conclusions while studying the passage. We might look to other passages where the term is used for evidence. One such passage is Revelation 2:7, where Jesus refers to "God's paradise." While there are many gardens and parks on the earth, there is only one garden where we will find the Tree of Life: God's paradise.

Jesus told the thief, "Today you shall be with me in paradise." And where did they lay his body on that day? A garden tomb.

Do you think there are currently more redeemed souls on earth than in Paradise?

Ministers who give false comfort to the families of the deceased by telling them that their loved ones are in heaven with the Lord are mistaken. The Apostle Paul comforts the Thessalonians with the good news that God will raise them from the dead and take them up into the air to be with the Lord forever. Does this event occur at the moment of death or at the blowing of a trumpet and the command of an archangel? All those in Christ will rise together at the sound of the trumpet and the command.

Given the word of the Apostle, we can conclude that no one leaves the earth or goes to a place called "Paradise."

Remember we are talking about since Noah and the Flood, not just since the Cross. Do you think there are even 2.5 billion souls on earth who are actually redeemed on any given day of this year?

How would anyone know such a thing?

I don't remember you claiming to be amil, so obviously at the Second Coming, the kingdom on earth will be exactly like the kingdom in heaven. But currently that kingdom of heaven in Paradise more than likely has more there, than on the earth.

I am not Amil. But even if I was, it would be mistaken for me (or anyone else) to superimpose my beliefs onto the text. The scriptures are intended to teach me and correct me. And how can they do that if I don't allow them to have the final word? :)

I return to the Lord's prayer. "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Presumably, I am praying for the kingdom to come because it hasn't come yet. And we know that when the kingdom is realized on earth, it will be subject to God's will.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ironic that the thief did not make it into the same tomb?

He made it into the same garden.

 

[rwb]

You mentioned the phrase "first resurrection" which is found in the book of Revelation 20. In this context, John is referring to the martyrs who were beheaded but later came back to life.

The wonderful thing about being a child of God is knowing that when my flesh breathes its last, I shall still be alive with my Lord. If my hope were in this life only, I would be most miserable, knowing that mortal death shall take me from my Lord, because NONE shall be physically resurrected again before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. It's sad to know so many professing faith in Christ, really have not faith in Christ. If it is true that you must come back to life again to be alive with Christ after mortal death, then YOUR Lord is a LIAR!

I have this confidence, that you lack! Because I know that while I am alive in Christ before my flesh breathes its last, I have partaken of the first resurrection from the dead because I have partaken of Christ, and through Him I am already alive forever. Because I understand that my flesh is NOT who I am, but a mere tent/tabernacle for me to temporarily dwell in until I put off this mortal, corrupt flesh that is destined to die, then I alive shall ascend to heaven just as these disembodied souls have.

 

[rwb]

The kingdom is NOT in Paradise. Remember the Lord's prayer. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

The Kingdom of God is within you, and when His Kingdom is within you, through His Spirit you have come into the paradise of God. Christ instructs us to pray for this to come because the Kingdom of God within us must be complete before Christ shall come again. Is that not something to look forward to and hope for, His coming again?

 

[rwb]

Presumably, I am praying for the kingdom to come because it hasn't come yet. And we know that when the kingdom is realized on earth, it will be subject to God's will.

I am praying "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" because I long for the Kingdom of God that is NOW in this age within me, but incomplete, to be filled completely with all who shall be saved and then the Kingdom of God shall come down from heaven to the new earth where it will not be by faith but by sight. If you're looking for the Kingdom of God with physical sight to come to this earth, then I wonder have you come into the Kingdom of God through His Spirit within you? Is this not why Christ tells us "Ye must be born again" to know and enter the Kingdom of God?

 

[rwb]

Yes, one must stick to the actual context of Rev 20 to realize this. Amill subverts the context, and inserts concepts not found in the text in order to manipulate the text into saying something it doesn't.

I was tempted to simply write LOL! But the depth of your lack of knowledge and the arrogance premillennialists display about the doctrine of Amil goes beyond laughable. Your doctrine has beheaded souls physically brought to life again on this earth without a head! How else would John know their heads had been cut off if he saw them physically resurrected with heads? Wouldn't these martyred souls have had to be physically alive, with heads to have their heads cut off for being faithful to the Word of God? Of course they would! That's why John writes they had already lived and reigned with Christ in TIME before they physically died. For that reason they are in heaven ALIVE, a spiritual body of believers there. We know that John cannot see them physically alive again in the flesh because there shall be NO resurrection of the DEAD from the graves until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[Zao is life]

Your doctrine has beheaded souls physically brought to life again on this earth without a head!

It's the way you are choosing to read it, and the way you are choosing to read it is ludicrous. The word Ridiculous does not suffice to describe how you interpret it.

It's not what it means or what it's saying. They had been beheaded and John saw them alive in human bodies (zao) again after they had been beheaded, and John calls it the first resurrection of the body (anastasis).

It's obvious from the context they were no longer headless when John saw them alive again. You're only showing the ludicrousness of your own eisegetical interpretation, which you have forced into the text and hold onto as though your salvation depends on it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The wonderful thing about being a child of God is knowing that when my flesh breathes its last, I shall still be alive with my Lord.

I see no evidence that we will be alive with the Lord after death. Rather, we place our hope in rising to live again at the resurrection.

If my hope were in this life only, I would be most miserable, knowing that mortal death shall take me from my Lord, because NONE shall be physically resurrected again before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. It's sad to know so many professing faith in Christ, really have not faith in Christ. If it is true that you must come back to life again to be alive with Christ after mortal death, then YOUR Lord is a LIAR!

How so? If I am alive with Christ after being raised from the dead, how does that make the Lord a liar? I don't get that.

I have this confidence, that you lack! Because I know that while I am alive in Christ before my flesh breathes its last, I have partaken of the first resurrection from the dead because I have partaken of Christ, and through Him I am already alive forever.

You are confusing terms. What you say is true with regard to being born again. But the First Resurrection is when those in Christ are physically brought back to life.

Because I understand that my flesh is NOT who I am, but a mere tent/tabernacle for me to temporarily dwell in until I put off this mortal, corrupt flesh that is destined to die, then I alive shall ascend to heaven just as these disembodied souls have.

Why do you say that your flesh is not who you are? Perhaps you mean to say that your flesh is not ALL that you are. We are more than our flesh. I agree. But our flesh is one important aspect of who we are.

Consider our Lord, for instance. He was a man born into the house of David. If he were not a man or born into the house of David, he would be disqualified from being a king of Israel. Our physicality and ethnicity are aspects of who we are.

 

[rwb]

It's the way you are choosing to read it, and the way you are choosing to read it is ludicrous. The word Ridiculous does not suffice to describe how you interpret it.

It's not what it means or what it's saying. They had been beheaded and John saw them alive in their human bodies (zao) again after they had been beheaded, and John calls it the first resurrection of the body (anastasis).

It's obvious from the context they were no longer headless when John saw them alive again. You're only showing the ludicrousness of your own interpretation which have forced into the text and hold onto as though your salvation depends on it.

Really? The way I'm choosing to read it is through that which is written without reading my opinion into the words John wrote, as you do. It is he, not I speaking of these martyred souls saying, "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." No matter how you believe a thousand years means, only a fool would deny it represents TIME. It doesn't take great understanding to realize that one is martyred while physically alive, and although they were physically martyred, before they died they lived and reigned with Christ during this time John writes "a thousand years." Notice John does not say they must be resurrected to physical life again then they lived and reigned with Christ in TIME (a thousand years). Because John knows there will be NONE physically resurrected in TIME, because there shall be NO physical resurrection before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds THAT TIME SHALL BE NO LONGER!

 

[CadyandZoe]

I am praying "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" because I long for the Kingdom of God that is NOW in this age within me, but incomplete, to be filled completely with all who shall be saved and then the Kingdom of God shall come down from heaven to the new earth where it will not be by faith but by sight. If you're looking for the Kingdom of God with physical sight to come to this earth, then I wonder have you come into the Kingdom of God through His Spirit within you? Is this not why Christ tells us "Ye must be born again" to know and enter the Kingdom of God?

What you say makes no sense. The phrase "thy kingdom come" assumes that it hasn't come. The kingdom of God is not now. Don't confuse the kingdom with the body of Christ. These are related concepts but they are not the same thing. The assembly of spirit filled believers are known as: the church, the fulness, or the body of Christ. When the kingdom comes on earth as it is in heaven, it will be populated by spirit filled believers. But the kingdom has not yet come.

 

[rwb]

I see no evidence that we will be alive with the Lord after death. Rather, we place our hope in rising to live again at the resurrection.

Yes, sadly I understand you believe what you want to believe. You don't even acknowledge the FACT that the Kingdom of God has come.

How so? If I am alive with Christ after being raised from the dead, how does that make the Lord a liar? I don't get that.

My Lord is not a liar! How can your Lord not be a liar if physical resurrection is all we can hope for? My Lord has given me assurance that the life that I have in Him, through His Spirit in me, when I knew and entered the Kingdom of God is forever/eternal/never ending life. You have hope only in you physical flesh destined to destruction, but I have hope in Christ's Holy Spirit within me who shall continue to give me everlasting life even though my flesh shall succumb to death. Your hope is in physically seeing, I have blessed assurance through His Spirit in me who promises the life I have received through Him shall NEVER die! I know in whom I have believed, that He is able to do all and more than I can physically see.

You are confusing terms. What you say is true with regard to being born again. But the First Resurrection is when those in Christ are physically brought back to life.

No! The first resurrection is the physical resurrection of Christ that we must partake of in life before our flesh breathes its last. This we do during this age of TIME, then when we breathe our last we too shall be among those who "HAVED LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST"!

Why do you say that your flesh is not who you are? Perhaps you mean to say that your flesh is not ALL that you are. We are more than our flesh. I agree. But our flesh is one important aspect of who we are.

Consider our Lord, for instance. He was a man born into the house of David. If he were not a man or born into the house of David, he would be disqualified from being a king of Israel. Our physicality and ethnicity are aspects of who we are.

My flesh is temporary! Man is born with mortal & corruptible flesh for this earth, that is destined to die. You focus only on the physical, material things of this world that shall not be forever but are all destined to destruction. Why would anyone want to cling to mortal, corruptible bodies destined to die? My hope is not in the physical body I now have, it is in the man within, that which has the Holy Spirit of Christ and has put off the old man and put on the new. It is the physical body that shall be resurrected in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer that I long for. Because then my flesh & bone shall be changed to immortal and incorruptible flesh made alive through my eternal/everlasting spirit that shall be with Christ when He comes again.

 

[rwb]

What you say makes no sense. The phrase "thy kingdom come" assumes that it hasn't come. The kingdom of God is not now. Don't confuse the kingdom with the body of Christ. These are related concepts but they are not the same thing. The assembly of spirit filled believers are known as: the church, the fulness, or the body of Christ. When the kingdom comes on earth as it is in heaven, it will be populated by spirit filled believers. But the kingdom has not yet come.

NO! That's you assuming what you do not understand! If you don't understand the Kingdom of God has come, how do you know you have been born again? Christ tells us that we will know and enter the Kingdom of God when we are born again. If you don't understand that fundamental truth from Christ, how can you possibly know that you have been born again? Get your mind and heart off the physical, material things that are destined for destruction, and begin to seek for spiritual understanding that you may know the things given of the Spirit.