They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Timtofly]

I don't understand your questions. I assume we are both looking at the same text.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.​

Christ has been raised from the dead . . .
Paul is defending his gospel against those who claim that there is no resurrection. He argues that if there is no resurrection, then Christ was not raised, and we will not be raised. Therefore, he says, "[T]hose also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied." The topic of Paul's message is the resurrection of Christ and his followers.

the first fruits of those who are asleep.
In the Hebrew religion, a small portion of the harvest was given to God to signify that the entire crop not only belonged to God but that God was responsible for producing the entire crop. The offering is an act of reverence and trust. Likewise, according to Paul, Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection together are a "first fruits" offering, signifying his trust that God will raise his followers from the dead. Jesus was the first to rise from the dead and guarantee the resurrection of all believers. His first fruits offering guarantees an abundant harvest of believers at this coming.

after that those who are Christ’s at His coming
God will raise those who are in Christ from the dead. He will raise them from the dead at the coming of Jesus.

in Christ all will be made alive.
The resurrection of Jesus guaranteed the resurrection of all those "in Christ."

Except your interpretation is placing Jesus as part of those who needed to be made alive from Adam's disobedience. The firstfruits were in Christ from the point of the Cross. The OT were the first to be made alive thus the firstfruits plural. Paul was saying the resurrection already happened for the firstfruits. Paul said the resurrection happened already against those who claimed it had not. You are one who claims there were none made alive at the Cross, exactly what Paul was arguing against. You said Jesus was the only one made alive. Jesus never needed to be made alive, because Jesus was never a sinner to begin with. Jesus was not the firstfruits. The OT redeemed waiting in death/the grave needed to be made alive. You claim, "no, Jesus needed to be made alive."

You deny the OT were the firstfruits made alive, and then you deny they had a bodily, physical, resurrection, and have been in Heaven/Paradise since the Ascension of Jesus on Sunday morning, after Jesus told Mary, He was about to ascend to God, but return later that day. Giving you Scripture does not even help, as you just interpret the meaning away with a symbolic excuse not to accept God's Word.

You cannot interpret "after that Christ at His Coming", if none were made alive in "Christ the firstfruits". There was never a first in your interpretation, to have an "after that".

 

[CadyandZoe]

Except your interpretation is placing Jesus as part of those who needed to be made alive from Adam's disobedience.

Yes, every human being that dies needs to be made alive. Jesus was crucified, so God made him alive, i.e. raised him from the dead. While death is the consequence of sin, it doesn't follow that Jesus died because he sinned. In fact, According to Paul, Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. (Romans 8:3) But he was without sin. (Hebrews 4:15)

Jesus needed to be made alive. Jesus was crucified. And he needed to be made alive, which is why God raised him from the dead.

I don't think this follows from my interpretation.

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23

The firstfruits were in Christ from the point of the Cross.

This makes no sense to me. According to Paul, Christ is the first fruits. 1 Corinthians 15:23

The OT were the first to be made alive thus the firstfruits plural.

Although the term "first fruits" is plural, Paul is using the term figuratively to represent Jesus Christ who was the first to be resurrected.

Paul was saying the resurrection already happened for the firstfruits.

I disagree. Paul explicitly refers to Christ, not others, as the first fruits in 1 Corinthians 15:20.

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

Paul said the resurrection happened already against those who claimed it had not.

Paul did not say that the resurrection had already happened. I understand what you are trying to do, and it's a fair attempt to reconcile Matthew 27 with 1 Corinthians 15. But we need to resist the temptation to force our interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus needed to be made alive. Jesus was crucified. And he needed to be made alive, which is why God raised him from the dead.

I don't think this follows from my interpretation.

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23

You did it again. You claim Jesus just died because all die in Adam.

You are forcing your belief into the chapter. I am pointing out Matthew and Paul are in agreement. Was there a resurrection mentioned in Matthew 27:51-53, or not?

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Christ is the reason all are made alive. Not that Christ needed to be made alive.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

Jesus did not die in Adam. Jesus died for all the descendants of Adam who are in death. We live in Christ, not die in Christ. We die in Adam, not live in Adam.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, I can't dispute what you are saying since we are given very little information regarding this subject. You could be right. I would like to have more information before I commit myself one way or the other.

I am right about the fact that God is a transcendent spirit. And so, if he is seen sitting on a throne, what one "sees" will be a theophany of some sort.

I am cautious about drawing conclusions about what God looks like or what he actually does from the book of Revelation, as it is symbolic by nature.

It is more literal than symbolic so language that is clearly literal should be taken as such. God is a spirit, but is not only a spirit. Both the Father and Son are depicted as physical beings with bodies (hands and face etc) so that has to be acknowledged as well.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You did it again. You claim Jesus just died because all die in Adam.

No. I didn't give you the reason why Jesus died. His reason for dying is well known by all.

You are forcing your belief into the chapter. I am pointing out Matthew and Paul are in agreement.

They aren't in agreement as I have explained.

Was there a resurrection mentioned in Matthew 27:51-53, or not?

Yes. Matthew says that people came out of the tombs. But so did Lazarus. And it is safe to assume that Paul was aware of both events when he wrote that Jesus was the first to be resurrected. Given these two facts, Paul invites us to think more deeply about his words.

I can't ignore Paul's explicit statement and neither should you. We are exploring the question. Assuming that Paul was aware of both events when he wrote that Christ is the first fruits of those who are asleep. Why does Paul refer to Jesus as the "first fruits"?

Christ is the reason all are made alive. Not that Christ needed to be made alive.

Christ died on the cross. Of course, he needed to be made alive.

Jesus did not die in Adam.

So what? He died, that's all you need to know.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is more literal than symbolic so language that is clearly literal should be taken as such. God is a spirit, but is not only a spirit. Both the Father and Son are depicted as physical beings with bodies (hands and face etc) so that has to be acknowledged as well.

That's what I said. If God appeared, he appeared as a theophany. The point is, the phrase "sitting at the right hand of the Father" isn't a literal description of Jesus and the Father. The phrase "sitting at the right hand" is an idiom indicating Jesus' royal status as ruler of all that exists.

 

[ewq1938]

That's what I said. If God appeared, he appeared as a theophany. The point is, the phrase "sitting at the right hand of the Father" isn't a literal description of Jesus and the Father. The phrase "sitting at the right hand" is an idiom indicating Jesus' royal status as ruler of all that exists.

Yet John was there and saw Christ walk to the Father on a throne and took a book. While sitting at the right hand carries a deeper meaning, it is also a literal situation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yet John was there and saw Christ walk to the Father on a throne and took a book. While sitting at the right hand carries a deeper meaning, it is also a literal situation.

I think John saw a vision, but do you think he saw actual events?

 

[Timtofly]

Christ died on the cross. Of course, he needed to be made alive.

Being made alive is not about physical death, which I keep pointing out and you keep saying. The firstfruits were the entire OT body of redeemed souls. They are now in Christ, now made alive, because they are now in Christ.

In Adam all are sinners.

In Christ all are made alive, no longer sinners.

Do you even accept they have a physical body in Paradise, and have had since Jesus ascended to God to present them as being made alive?

 

[ewq1938]

I think John saw a vision, but do you think he saw actual events?

That's what a vision is in the Greek, something you see with your eyes. John was there literally when he saw things. Some things were literal like angels talking and blowing trumps, some were like CGI animation or something like when he saw a 7 headed beast rise from the sea. John wrote things in a book that he brought back with him and from those notes he wrote Rev.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Being made alive is not about physical death, which I keep pointing out and you keep saying. The firstfruits were the entire OT body of redeemed souls. They are now in Christ, now made alive, because they are now in Christ.

In Adam all are sinners.

In Christ all are made alive, no longer sinners.

You and I are having difficulty understanding each other because you are discussing one passage while bringing in ideas from other passages. It is important to exercise caution when attempting to apply ideas from one passage of scripture to another.

You assert that being made alive isn't about physical death. But you ignore the context where the statement is made. What is the subject matter of the passage if not resurrection from the dead? Paul is defending the gospel against those who claim that a dead person can't be brought back to life. In that context he says, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

In your explanation of the passage, you introduced the concept of sin and suggested that Paul was referring to rebirth or spiritual awakening. However, in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul does not discuss sin or sinful behavior. Instead, he is addressing the issue of bodily death and the belief that there is no resurrection of the body. In this context, the phrase "made alive" refers to being brought back to life after death. Jesus was made alive by the Spirit of God who resurrected him after his death. This is a crucial fact and forms the basis of Paul's claims. If Christ was not resurrected, then we are the most pitiable of all people.

Do you even accept they have a physical body in Paradise, and have had since Jesus ascended to God to present them as being made alive?

Again, I have no idea what you are saying because you don't mention the passage you want to discuss. Assuming you want to talk about 2 Corinthians 12:3-5, Paul admits that he didn't know if he was there "in the body" or "apart from the body." If he doesn't know, then why would you expect me to know?

If you are talking about Luke 23, Did Jesus mean to say that he and the criminal would see each other in the Paradise of God that day? I don't think so since Jesus told Mary, "I have not yet ascended to my Father." If Jesus didn't ascend to the Father, then he didn't ascend to Paradise of God. And since he didn't ascend to the Paradise of God, then he didn't meet the criminal there.

The word "paradise" means "garden". In the book of John, it is mentioned that "Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid." This implies that the location where the criminal would be "with Jesus" was the tomb, which was located in the garden.

The criminal wanted Jesus to remember him when he came into his kingdom. Perhaps he will, but first, THAT day, they both were to be placed in a tomb.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's what a vision is in the Greek, something you see with your eyes. John was there literally when he saw things. Some things were literal like angels talking and blowing trumps, some were like CGI animation or something like when he saw a 7 headed beast rise from the sea. John wrote things in a book that he brought back with him and from those notes he wrote Rev.

I understand that one might see a vision with the eyes. But the description of a vision usually employs fantastical language, which indicates that the person wasn't seeing actual events take place.

 

[Timtofly]

You and I are having difficulty understanding each other because you are discussing one passage while bringing in ideas from other passages. It is important to exercise caution when attempting to apply ideas from one passage of scripture to another.

You assert that being made alive isn't about physical death. But you ignore the context where the statement is made. What is the subject matter of the passage if not resurrection from the dead? Paul is defending the gospel against those who claim that a dead person can't be brought back to life. In that context he says, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

In your explanation of the passage, you introduced the concept of sin and suggested that Paul was referring to rebirth or spiritual awakening. However, in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul does not discuss sin or sinful behavior. Instead, he is addressing the issue of bodily death and the belief that there is no resurrection of the body. In this context, the phrase "made alive" refers to being brought back to life after death. Jesus was made alive by the Spirit of God who resurrected him after his death. This is a crucial fact and forms the basis of Paul's claims. If Christ was not resurrected, then we are the most pitiable of all people.


Again, I have no idea what you are saying because you don't mention the passage you want to discuss. Assuming you want to talk about 2 Corinthians 12:3-5, Paul admits that he didn't know if he was there "in the body" or "apart from the body." If he doesn't know, then why would you expect me to know?

If you are talking about Luke 23, Did Jesus mean to say that he and the criminal would see each other in the Paradise of God that day? I don't think so since Jesus told Mary, "I have not yet ascended to my Father." If Jesus didn't ascend to the Father, then he didn't ascend to Paradise of God. And since he didn't ascend to the Paradise of God, then he didn't meet the criminal there.

The word "paradise" means "garden". In the book of John, it is mentioned that "Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid." This implies that the location where the criminal would be "with Jesus" was the tomb, which was located in the garden.

The criminal wanted Jesus to remember him when he came into his kingdom. Perhaps he will, but first, THAT day, they both were to be placed in a tomb.

So your interpretation of kingdom is a tomb in a garden?

My interpretation is that God told the thief those words. I cannot place God in an earthly tomb any more than you can.

Besides don't most people say the spirit goes to heaven, not the body? The kingdom in every sense of the word is heaven, so why are you making this so difficult? Obviously one does have to physically die, to enter that kingdom. You cannot take Adam's flesh into God's kingdom.

Now you seem to indicate this verse as saying:

"For as in Adam all only physically die, even so in Christ shall all only be made physically alive."

What about any spiritual restoration? Does Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection cover spiritual aspects of life?

Those of the OT who were redeemed, were still in death both spiritually and physically. They were not in Paradise nor God's spiritual kingdom in heaven.

When Paul states each in their order, do you just toss that word "order" out and claim there is no order, in blatant contradiction to Paul and the Word of God, Paul is presenting? Are you saying you won't be made alive either until the end of creation? Are you not even made alive now? If not, what is the second birth for, and why was there not a second birth even prior to the Flood, if no one has ever been made alive out of Adam's dead corruptible state of existence? If the second birth has no meaning then it was relative prior to Flood, without meaning.

I don't assert anything. Being made alive is more than physical. I have pointed out many times that since the Cross, the thief has had a physical body in Paradise. You keep denying that point and then you claim I assert being made alive is not physical. Since the thief was made alive that day in Paradise, he was physically restored with God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Not just in spirit as spiritual but having both a soul and body made alive as the firstfruits in Christ. He was the first NT convert dying a few hours after the NT Covenant was instated. His profession of faith was asking to be allowed into God's kingdom. So if he was not in that kingdom, then neither should you expect to be in that kingdom upon physical death. Obviously you assert he and you will have to wait indefinitely because no one is currently in Christ even though the NT indicates that point. If you are not there in the here and now, nor when you die, perhaps your cemetery will be considered a garden?

Your interpretation resembles this:

You walk up to a presidential candidate at a debate and ask, "If you become president, can I be part of your administration?".

His answer is, "Sure, ride with me to the airport, and we are going to get into a horrific car accident and we will both die."

You reply, "Wait, what? That is not what I asked. I asked about being in your administration, not that we should die and be buried at the same time".

That is how your interpretation sounds.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So your interpretation of kingdom is a tomb in a garden?

No, I was talking about what Jesus said to the man on the cross. I compare what Jesus said to the man against what actually happened. Jesus said that the man would be with him in paradise. This literally came true when both Jesus and the man were buried in the garden where the tomb was located. In other words, Jesus wasn't talking about meeting the man in the Paradise of God, which is where Paul went.

We always need to bear in mind the larger picture. Let's review the passage again.

Luke 23:35-40

And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.” The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!” Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”​

​

One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”​

​

Observations:

• people sneering
• rulers sneering
• "save yourself"
• "let him save himself"
• "if this is the Christ"
• "if you are king of the Jews"
• "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us."
• "Jesus remember me in your kingdom"
• "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise."

"What is happening here? Once again, there is an attack on Jesus' claim to be the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant. The underlying assumption is quite evident. In the minds of those who sneered at Jesus, he could not be the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant because they believed God would never allow the Christ to die on a cross. If Jesus was truly the Christ, as he claimed, then either he or the Father would save him. However, since God is not saving him, these people concluded that Jesus' claim must be false."

The man who was crucified had a different perspective. He believed that Jesus was the true Christ and that he would eventually rule His kingdom. Though Jesus did not deny this, He explained that the men would first have to die and be buried in a tomb. Even though Jesus is truly the Christ, and even though Jesus will come into his kingdom. He and the man on the cross would spend at least three days and three nights in a garden tomb.

​

Besides don't most people say the spirit goes to heaven, not the body? The kingdom in every sense of the word is heaven, so why are you making this so difficult? Obviously one does have to physically die, to enter that kingdom. You cannot take Adam's flesh into God's kingdom.

Some Christians hold the mistaken belief that the kingdom of Jesus is purely spiritual, where he rules over the hearts and minds of his followers. However, when Jesus and the man on the cross spoke about the Davidic Covenant, they were referring to a future time when a descendant of David would rule on his throne forever. In this instance, Jesus will reign over the entire world, even those who do not worship God the Father or the Son. As per the scriptures, He shall rule them with an iron rod.

Now you seem to indicate this verse as saying:

"For as in Adam all only physically die, even so in Christ shall all only be made physically alive."

What about any spiritual restoration? Does Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection cover spiritual aspects of life?

The spiritual aspects of life are covered in other passages of the Bible. Here, in 1 Corinthians 15, the topic of discussion is the physical body.

Those of the OT who were redeemed, were still in death both spiritually and physically. They were not in Paradise nor God's spiritual kingdom in heaven.

The Bible says very little about what happens after we die. Those who minister to grieving widows and children make up comforting words, telling them that their dead loved ones will be waiting for them in heaven. But what did Paul say about the subject? What did Paul say to grieving widows and children? "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus."

In the New Testament, the term "asleep" became a technical term for the dead whom Jesus intended to raise from the dead. Jesus was the one who began referring to dead people as "asleep." On one occasion, when Jesus raised the rich man's daughter, Jesus told the crowd that she was not dead; she was asleep. And those in attendance laughed because they knew that she was dead. And yet, Jesus said she was "asleep."

Death and sleep have some similarities, but they are not the same thing. In the story, the girl was dead, not asleep. However, Jesus compared her death to sleep to make an important point. The main distinction between the two is that while death is permanent, sleep is only temporary. Therefore, her death is like sleep in that her death is not permanent. Jesus will raise her up, and he did.

We know from our experience that it's not possible for a person to come back to life after death naturally. We mourn over the loss of our loved ones because we know that they are gone forever, and we can no longer enjoy their company. However, for those who have died in Christ, their death is not a permanent state. As per the teachings of Apostle Paul, they will rise from the dead when Christ returns to the earth. That is good news.

When Paul states each in their order, do you just toss that word "order" out and claim there is no order, in blatant contradiction to Paul and the Word of God, Paul is presenting?

No, what I "tossed out" is your assumption that Paul was talking about those mentioned in Matthew 27. The order is simple. First Christ, then his followers. The phrase "in Christ" refers to Jesus' followers. We have no evidence that Matthew was recording the resurrection of Jesus' followers.

Paul said, "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. Grammatically, the last phrase in bold provides additional information regarding the state of being of Christ and explains why those who are asleep in Christ have hope. The Father raised Jesus from the dead, and he will also raise those who are asleep in Christ from the dead.

Are you saying you won't be made alive either until the end of creation?

Yes, in the sense that Paul meant it in 1 Corinthians 15. To be "made alive" in that context refers to bodily resurrection.

Are you not even made alive now?

No. According to Paul, resurrection is a future hope.

If not, what is the second birth for, and why was there not a second birth even prior to the Flood, if no one has ever been made alive out of Adam's dead corruptible state of existence?

Paul is not discussing the second birth in 1 Corinthians 15. He is simply stating that those who are "in Christ" will be brought back to life. Bear in mind that the phrase "in Christ" includes the concept of spiritual rebirth. The phrase "in Adam" refers to the state of being a human being. The phrase "in Christ" refers to the state of being born again and accepting that Jesus is Christ. All human beings are "in Adam" but not all human beings will attain to the resurrection.

If the second birth has no meaning then it was relative prior to Flood, without meaning.

I don't think your conclusion follows from what I said.

I don't assert anything. Being made alive is more than physical.

As Bible students we need to constantly discipline ourselves against inserting ideas into a text that were not intended by the author. In this case, your view inserts the idea of spiritual rebirth into 1 Corinthians 15 in a way that Paul never intended. Bear in mind the subject matter is physical resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

No, I was talking about what Jesus said to the man on the cross. I compare what Jesus said to the man against what actually happened. Jesus said that the man would be with him in paradise. This literally came true when both Jesus and the man were buried in the garden where the tomb was located. In other words, Jesus wasn't talking about meeting the man in the Paradise of God, which is where Paul went.

We always need to bear in mind the larger picture. Let's review the passage again.

Luke 23:35-40

And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.” The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!” Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”​

​

One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”​

​

Observations:

• people sneering
• rulers sneering
• "save yourself"
• "let him save himself"
• "if this is the Christ"
• "if you are king of the Jews"
• "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us."
• "Jesus remember me in your kingdom"
• "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise."

"What is happening here? Once again, there is an attack on Jesus' claim to be the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant. The underlying assumption is quite evident. In the minds of those who sneered at Jesus, he could not be the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant because they believed God would never allow the Christ to die on a cross. If Jesus was truly the Christ, as he claimed, then either he or the Father would save him. However, since God is not saving him, these people concluded that Jesus' claim must be false."

The man who was crucified had a different perspective. He believed that Jesus was the true Christ and that he would eventually rule His kingdom. Though Jesus did not deny this, He explained that the men would first have to die and be buried in a tomb. Even though Jesus is truly the Christ, and even though Jesus will come into his kingdom. He and the man on the cross would spend at least three days and three nights in a garden tomb.



Some Christians hold the mistaken belief that the kingdom of Jesus is purely spiritual, where he rules over the hearts and minds of his followers. However, when Jesus and the man on the cross spoke about the Davidic Covenant, they were referring to a future time when a descendant of David would rule on his throne forever. In this instance, Jesus will reign over the entire world, even those who do not worship God the Father or the Son. As per the scriptures, He shall rule them with an iron rod.

The spiritual aspects of life are covered in other passages of the Bible. Here, in 1 Corinthians 15, the topic of discussion is the physical body.

The Bible says very little about what happens after we die. Those who minister to grieving widows and children make up comforting words, telling them that their dead loved ones will be waiting for them in heaven. But what did Paul say about the subject? What did Paul say to grieving widows and children? "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus."

In the New Testament, the term "asleep" became a technical term for the dead whom Jesus intended to raise from the dead. Jesus was the one who began referring to dead people as "asleep." On one occasion, when Jesus raised the rich man's daughter, Jesus told the crowd that she was not dead; she was asleep. And those in attendance laughed because they knew that she was dead. And yet, Jesus said she was "asleep."

Death and sleep have some similarities, but they are not the same thing. In the story, the girl was dead, not asleep. However, Jesus compared her death to sleep to make an important point. The main distinction between the two is that while death is permanent, sleep is only temporary. Therefore, her death is like sleep in that her death is not permanent. Jesus will raise her up, and he did.

We know from our experience that it's not possible for a person to come back to life after death naturally. We mourn over the loss of our loved ones because we know that they are gone forever, and we can no longer enjoy their company. However, for those who have died in Christ, their death is not a permanent state. As per the teachings of Apostle Paul, they will rise from the dead when Christ returns to the earth. That is good news.



No, what I "tossed out" is your assumption that Paul was talking about those mentioned in Matthew 27. The order is simple. First Christ, then his followers. The phrase "in Christ" refers to Jesus' followers. We have no evidence that Matthew was recording the resurrection of Jesus' followers.

Paul said, "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. Grammatically, the last phrase in bold provides additional information regarding the state of being of Christ and explains why those who are asleep in Christ have hope. The Father raised Jesus from the dead, and he will also raise those who are asleep in Christ from the dead.



Yes, in the sense that Paul meant it in 1 Corinthians 15. To be "made alive" in that context refers to bodily resurrection.

No. According to Paul, resurrection is a future hope.

Paul is not discussing the second birth in 1 Corinthians 15. He is simply stating that those who are "in Christ" will be brought back to life. Bear in mind that the phrase "in Christ" includes the concept of spiritual rebirth. The phrase "in Adam" refers to the state of being a human being. The phrase "in Christ" refers to the state of being born again and accepting that Jesus is Christ. All human beings are "in Adam" but not all human beings will attain to the resurrection.



I don't think your conclusion follows from what I said.

As Bible students we need to constantly discipline ourselves against inserting ideas into a text that were not intended by the author. In this case, your view inserts the idea of spiritual rebirth into 1 Corinthians 15 in a way that Paul never intended. Bear in mind the subject matter is physical resurrection.

Jesus taught them in the years leading up to the Cross, that the Kingdom of God was unseen in heaven, that is Paradise.

Jesus said the thief would enter that kingdom that day. That is all we need to understand.

So the thief physically entered Paradise that day and experienced a physical bodily resurrection. That is the only made alive point Paul was making about Christ, the firstfruits. That is the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20. That first resurrection has been available since the NT Covenant was purchased on the Cross, that Day.

The first resurrection is the hope of the believer, and that happens when the soul leaves Adam's flesh, that only returns to dust.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Jesus taught them in the years leading up to the Cross, that the Kingdom of God was unseen in heaven, that is Paradise.

Jesus said the thief would enter that kingdom that day. That is all we need to understand.

So the thief physically entered Paradise that day and experienced a physical bodily resurrection. That is the only made alive point Paul was making about Christ, the firstfruits. That is the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20. That first resurrection has been available since the NT Covenant was purchased on the Cross, that Day.

The first resurrection is the hope of the believer, and that happens when the soul leaves Adam's flesh, that only returns to dust.

In the Bible Paradise was here bro ! before the Serpent tempted Eve and corrupted Adam !

The Kingdom of God is hear on Earth bro, such does as it is in Heaven in fact ! It abides ?

The Thief was for Jesus, not against ! If one respects Jesus then you are on the right track ? not against him ! as the others were in fact !
It never said that the Thief would go to Heaven in fact !

The Thief had made a stance ! most likely the Thief was water baptized ?

No one purchased nothing at all in fact bro ! It's a free gift in fact and it's up to one to pick it up and cherish such !
If one does not pick it up and cherish such one is not worthy of the gift in fact ! or it's of no value to one who rejects the Gift, for they can not understand the reality their of the Gift in fact !

Not everyone is Saved bro ! that comes down to free will, you must freely take it up and carry on ! or be a dill and a abomination too God and all around you in fact ! for such do not have Grace in fact !

Grace is God given in fact !

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus taught them in the years leading up to the Cross, that the Kingdom of God was unseen in heaven, that is Paradise.

Where is this recorded in scripture?

Jesus taught his disciples, including us, to pray the Lord's prayer. The opening line of the prayer includes the statement, "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven . . ." Given that we are praying for the kingdom to come, it is safe to say that the kingdom has not yet come. God's will is not yet being done on earth as it is in heaven. I can't wait until this happens and I look forward to that day with great anticipation.

"It can be helpful to consider what the message of Jesus meant to the people who first heard it. To them, it may have been difficult to understand how the Christ dying on a cross could be significant. In fact, Paul noted that the idea of Christ dying for the sins of the people was not well-known among them. From their perspective, the death of Christ on the cross may have seemed like a failure of prophecy and a lack of trustworthiness on God's part. In Matthew 16:22, Peter expresses his disbelief, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."

The people who were present at the crucifixion believed that God would not let his Christ die on the cross. Hence, they ridiculed Jesus, saying, "If you are the Christ, then save yourself." Even though Jesus had the power to save himself and had told his accusers that he could command thousands of angels to help him, he did not do so because he had a different plan that aligned with God's plan. Later, when the thief requested Jesus to remember him when he went to his kingdom, Jesus replied that both of them must first be buried in a tomb.

Jesus said the thief would enter that kingdom that day. That is all we need to understand.

Jesus said that he and the thief would be in paradise, which is a garden tomb nearby.

So the thief physically entered Paradise that day and experienced a physical bodily resurrection.

If Jesus didn't go to heaven on that day, what makes you think that the thief did? And if Jesus' body rose from the dead on the third day, what makes you think that a physical body goes to heaven?

That is the only made alive point Paul was making about Christ, the firstfruits. That is the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20. That first resurrection has been available since the NT Covenant was purchased on the Cross, that Day.

The first resurrection is the hope of the believer, and that happens when the soul leaves Adam's flesh, that only returns to dust.

Resurrection is the act of coming back to life after a person has died. To prove a resurrection, several factors must be present. The deceased person must have been in the grave for at least three days, and the resurrected person must be mobile and available for people to touch. Thomas, one of Jesus' disciples, doubted that Jesus had risen from the dead and said that he would not believe it unless he could touch the wounds on Jesus' body. Jesus allowed Thomas to do so, proving that he had indeed risen from the dead.

You mentioned the phrase "first resurrection" which is found in the book of Revelation 20. In this context, John is referring to the martyrs who were beheaded but later came back to life. Some people interpret this phrase as referring to the resurrection of Jesus, but this is not what John intended, nor does he mention it in the passage. Therefore, it is important to understand that Revelation 20 speaks exclusively about the resurrection of the martyrs, not about the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus said that he and the thief would be in paradise, which is a garden tomb nearby.
If Jesus didn't go to heaven on that day, what makes you think that the thief did? And if Jesus' body rose from the dead on the third day, what makes you think that a physical body goes to heaven?

You are the only one claiming that Jesus' kingdom was a garden tomb. Jesus' spirit did go to Paradise that day and so did the soul of that thief.

Only Jesus' physical body spent 3 days in a borrowed tomb. You have no proof they placed the dead body of the thief even in the same tomb, but that is your argument.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are the only one claiming that Jesus' kingdom was a garden tomb.

I advise you to suspend your own beliefs while you attempt to understand mine. That way, you won't inadvertently confuse the two. I never said that Jesus' kingdom was a garden tomb. I maintain that when Jesus told the thief they would be in paradise, he meant they would be in a garden tomb. YOU are the one who believes that Jesus referred to God's Paradise and that is where the kingdom is located.

See the difference? You are confusing your view with my view into a mash-up view. :)

In my view, Jesus' statement is ironic, in light of the mockers who challenged his claim to be Christ.

Jesus' spirit did go to Paradise that day and so did the soul of that thief.

I see why you believe this, but it isn't true. Remember, Jesus told Mary that he didn't go to God's paradise.

Only Jesus' physical body spent 3 days in a borrowed tomb. You have no proof they placed the dead body of the thief even in the same tomb, but that is your argument.

I am attempting to account for all the Biblical evidence.

 

[Timtofly]

Therefore, it is important to understand that Revelation 20 speaks exclusively about the resurrection of the martyrs, not about the resurrection of Jesus.

No, the first resurrection is the physical resurrection for all redeemed. You have a too narrow of a view on the first resurrection. Obviously it is not the second birth into God's spiritual kingdom. But one cannot be a restored son of God, in that kingdom in Paradise without a first, physical resurrection. That is the hope of life immediately after physical death. That first resurrection is the hope of every believer since that thief on that cross, that day.

Prior to the Cross, the redeemed only had hope in Abraham's bosom waiting as souls, for that first physical resurrection. Which also happened when they came out of their graves bodily, that day. That is the first resurrection. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life.