They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[rwb]

Aren't we left with a question of motive? What was found in Adam that led him to disobey a direct commandment of God? Doesn't a sinful act indicate a sinful motive? Since God is holding Adam morally accountable for what he did, it is safe to say that Adam acted voluntarily, consciously, and affirmatively to eat the forbidden fruit. Given this is the case, we must conclude that Adam was NOT morally perfect and had sin in him.

What Adam had that led him to disobey God was 'free will'. With autonomy there is always the potential for being deceived. It wasn't until after A&E disobeyed God that mankind was no longer "very good". From that moment they listened to the voice of evil, they became enslaved to their new master, and without receiving life through the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, they, like all who remain without Christ, were destined to physically die in their sins.

I believe that when God covered their nakedness through the blood and skin of the animal that was slain, is a depiction of Christ, as the Lamb of God who took away sin and defeated death. IMO Christ was symbolically the Lamb slain to cover the nakedness of not only A&E, but of all from humanity that would believe on Him for life born after them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well they certainly are not dead somewhere.

Do you think God is not located in Heaven either?

No, I was taking issue with those who believe that we go to heaven after we die. You responded to my assertion by claiming that I didn't understand 2 Corinthians 5:1. I took your comment as a rebuttal to suggest that, indeed, we go to heaven, presumably to be with our bodies.

I take note of two issues regarding Paul's description. He tells us that we have a building from God . . . eternal in the heavens. (plural) Heaven may be where God resides but "the heavens" (plural) refers to the planetary bodies. In this context, Paul is using the word "heavens" figuratively as a metaphor to indicate that our new bodies will share attributes in common with the place where the planets and stars live. That is, our bodies will be like the celestial bodies in that, like the heavens, our lifetimes will be endless.

Secondly, if we are putting on our heavenly dwelling, then Paul is referring to what we will be, not where we will live. I don't think we can turn to 2 Corinthians 5 in order to discover where we will live when we go to be with the Lord. For that question, we might turn to 1 Thessalonians, where Paul says that we will rise to be with the Lord in the air -- meaning the clouds. (The Greeks had two words for "air" one for the lower denser air and another word for the higher, rarer air.) Paul is talking about meeting Jesus in the lower denser air, which we call "clouds." Presumably, we will always be with the Lord no matter where he is located.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What Adam had that led him to disobey God was 'free will'. With autonomy there is always the potential for being deceived. It wasn't until after A&E disobeyed God that mankind was no longer "very good". From that moment they listened to the voice of evil, they became enslaved to their new master, and without receiving life through the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, they, like all who remain without Christ, were destined to physically die in their sins.

I believe that when God covered their nakedness through the blood and skin of the animal that was slain, is a depiction of Christ, as the Lamb of God who took away sin and defeated death. IMO Christ was symbolically the Lamb slain to cover the nakedness of not only A&E, but of all from humanity that would believe on Him for life born after them.

I understand that humankind was given freedom of the will. But Jesus had freedom of the will and yet he was without sin. I need another basis on which to evaluate Adam's behavior. Or no?

 

[rwb]

I understand that humankind was given freedom of the will. But Jesus had freedom of the will and yet he was without sin. I need another basis on which to evaluate Adam's behavior. Or no?

The serpent was intentionally created to be more cunning and crafty (not in a good way) than the rest. And knowing by his being created this way he would be able to deceive the humans He created in His likeness & image, God allowed him to be with A&E in the garden to tempt them, why? Ask yourself why A&E must have knowledge of both good and evil, they did not have before eating of the forbidden tree? Must these traits be experienced to understand them? Is that why God allowed this deception He knew would bring sin and death through sin to His very good creation?

 

[Timtofly]

I have heard this explanation before, but I can't make sense of it. Some folks understand that Adam was perfect in all his ways before he sinned. The basis of this belief is found in the creation story, which says that God saw all that he made, and it was perfect.

Aren't we left with a question of motive? What was found in Adam that led him to disobey a direct commandment of God? Doesn't a sinful act indicate a sinful motive? Since God is holding Adam morally accountable for what he did, it is safe to say that Adam acted voluntarily, consciously, and affirmatively to eat the forbidden fruit. Given this is the case, we must conclude that Adam was NOT morally perfect and had sin in him.

According to Paul, Adam is the prototype of all humanity (except for Jesus.) Romans 5:14 We are just like our father Adam in that we also have sin in us just as he did.


Paul frequently uses a metaphor that involves putting on clothes. To "put on" something is to dedicate oneself to an activity. To "put on" immorality is to live in accord with the gospel of being granted immorality. He speaks about this in his letter to the Romans 2. He says that at the judgment God will render eternal life "to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality." In other words, to "put on" immorality is to persevere in doing good. Only when one is committed to living in a manner worthy of immortality, will one be granted an imperishable body.


A robe is a temporary covering of the body. The color white represents righteous acts. (19:8)

Not found in scripture.

Jesus said that God is a spirit. So the genitive phase "Spirit of God" means "The Spirit which is God."

Prove it.

Did I make that claim? No. Of course, Adam and Eve physically died, though I wouldn't say it that way. I maintain that when a person dies, the whole person dies -- body, soul, and spirit.

So what did God mean by "on the day you eat of it, you shall surely die?" The word "surely" isn't a part of the Hebrew text. The translator is attempting to make sense of the phrase "dying you will die." The NET Bible commentary has this. "The Hebrew text (“dying you will die”) does not refer to two aspects of death (“dying spiritually, you will then die physically”). The construction simply emphasizes the certainty of death, however it is defined."

That is, God means to say, "on the day you eat of it, the certainty of your death will become fixed."


Moses says nothing about a permanent body of any kind.

Because Adam's disobedience brought about the punishment of death and sin.

Paul pointed out Adam's disobedience was different. Romans 5:12-13

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Adam's descendants were born into death. Adam was not part of death until Adam disobeyed God. Only Adam could bring death and sin into the world. Just as Jesus could only remove sin and death from the world. Adam was the figure of the real Adam, Jesus Christ.

Once Adam and Eve physically died, they lost the permanent incorruptible physical body. They were placed in the temporal corruptible physical body where sin and death would reign over them. Sin and death would have no power over God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Revelation 20:6 points out that fact.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The physical resurrection is back into Adam's original physical body from God. The natural body comes from Adam and Eve. The spiritual body is the one Adam and Eve had from God before they were placed into a state of death.

At what point does a demonic spirit die? Do you have Scripture showing such a dead spirit? A demon represents a spiritually dead spirit. How can you claim physical non existence of a demonic spirit? A demon is a human spirit that can possess another human. But you are not possessed by your own spirit. You are spiritually dead without a connection to your spirit. That is why you have the Holy Spirit on loan by God. The Holy Spirit comes from God, and returns to God, upon the death of the physical body.

In Revelation 6 that robe of white is not symbolic of righteousness. Why would souls only be righteous at the Second Coming? Are you not currently clothed in righteousness? Have you not been redeemed and part of the second birth? Revelation 6 is talking about the Second Coming, and those robes of white are symbolic of the entire church putting on the spirit. That is the final restoration of becoming a son of God, being glorified. Then the church is told to wait until the rest of Adam's fleshed is destroyed or redeemed. Revelation 7 is the redemption of the 144k. The Trumpets and Thunders are the final harvest.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't understand your question or from where it comes. Was I talking about Adam? I thought you knew the subject we were discussing, which is Paul's letter to the Corinthians, wherein he tells us that death will be defeated when we are all changed. Adam didn't change at all.

You asserted that "no verse claims that one body morphs into the other body in either direction." I reminded you of Paul's assertion that we will all be changed. I wondered if you understood the concept of change differently than I did. In my view, Paul means to say that our bodies will be altered or transformed. Apparently, your view is that God will exchange our current body with another one. If that is what Paul meant, I have no problem with that. But I would need to see evidence that Paul was talking about an exchange of bodies rather than a transformation of bodies, not that it matters in the end.

But I can't see any evidence in Genesis that Adam underwent a transformation or an exchange of bodies.


I'm not sure I agree with you because God is the one performing the change. The soul doesn't have any say in it.

the earthly tent
The word tent indicates the temporal aspect of our current body. The word "earthly" indicates the source of our current body, perhaps even the materials of that body, i.e. dust.

We have a building from God . . .
Paul indicates the source of our new body.

Eternal in the heavens . . .
Indicates the quality of our new body. Jesus exhorted us to store up for ourselves treasures in heaven, because heaven is a place where there is neither moth nor rust and men can't steal.

Thus, the comparison between earthly and heavenly is a comparison between the temporal and the eternal.


In this context, mortal is an adjective, indicating a quality or attribute of our tent.

Logically, what you say seems reasonable except for the fact that Paul speaks about the living also being changed. The living have not yet died and their body has not yet turned to dust. I realize what you just said is a problem for my view, i.e. that many of the dead Christians will have been turned to dust by the time of the change. It doesn't make sense to say that a pile of dust is being altered or transformed. I get that and I agree. And I am willing to think about the process in terms of an exchange of bodies since the result is still the same.

I don't see this in the Bible.

Paul says we all change: 1 Corinthians 15:51

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

Paul states not all will experience physical death, but all will be changed. In an instant, just like Adam and Eve instantly changed from life to death, the redeemed at the Second Coming will change from death to life.

In Hebrews 11 it was called translated when Enoch was changed from one physical body to another physical body, that he should not see death. Enoch was never a soul without a physical body.

Why do you deny the bodily resurrection of Matthew 27:52-53?

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Physical bodies came out of their graves. Now if their old body was dissolved we know they have a new permanent incorruptible physical body from God. 2 Corinthians 5:1. Those souls came out of Abraham's bosom, because that is where Jesus said they were. Luke 16:22-23

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

The OT redeemed were in the heart of the earth near to sheol. They had comfort while the wicked were in torment. Why would Jesus lie or mislead us with information? Jesus is the literal Word of God.

Now their physical bodies had dissolved returned to dust, never to be used again, because they were of sin and death. Even Jesus said, "let the dead bury the dead". Both the living and nonliving are equally dead.

So a physical bodily resurrection out of the grave, called Abraham's bosom is not to the old body of sin and death. It is to God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Once again: 2 Corinthians 5:1.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Why does no one know this when the Word of God literally says, "For we know"? There should be no guess work nor opinions, nor any disagreement period. Paul says we know when a soul is placed in a physical body coming out of the body of death that returns to dust, that new physical body is of God, permanent and incorruptible, and eternal in the heavens. Paradise is called the third heaven by Paul himself.

There is no sin and death in Paradise.

So at the Second Coming, those alive will not sleep, experience the separation of soul from body, but they will immediately be translated out of one body into the other, because the body does not morph nor change, the soul changes bodies. But obviously God changes that "babies diaper". The point is that it is not the same body but two totally different bodies. One of death, the other of life. One temporal, the other permanent. One of corruption, the other of incorruption. One corruptible, the other incorruptible. One a tabernacle, the other a building. One natural of Adam, the other spiritual of God. One that returns to dust, the other that can never die.

Many, to this day, claim the soul sleeps seperate from the body until a final resurrection at the end of time. Where is this mentioned in 2 Corinthians 5:1? Sleep was mentioned about Lazarus by Jesus. Lazarus was indeed dead. His soul in Abraham's bosom. His body dissolved back to dust. But the Cross changed all that. They all came out of their graves all over the earth, just like Lazarus did after 4 days. Many point out that is what Paul was referring to in Ephesians 4:8. But that was already prophecied in Psalms 68:18

"Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them."

Peter also stated in 1 Peter 3, that at the Cross Jesus entered sheol and preached to those even from the days prior to the Flood. So explain at what other time did Jesus descend to lead captivity captive as mentioned in Psalms 68?

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

It was instantaneous at the Cross, as it will be at the Second Coming. Of course a soul does nothing on it's own. Those in Abraham's bosom were walking out in their new permanent incorruptible physical bodies the instant Jesus said, "It is finished". They are not still on earth, nor died again. They were presented to God as the firstfruits per 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 when Jesus ascended to heaven on Sunday morning after talking to Mary.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits."

The order of being restored, made alive after Adam was placed into death, started with the firstfruits from out of Abraham's bosom. We know it was a bodily resurrection because of Matthew 27:52-53. We know it was a different body because of 2 Corinthians 5:1. We should know that Lazarus was a prequel to the main event. Even the Pharisees were worried because of the real thing.

"If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation....And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."

 

[Timtofly]

The spiritual body that is raised when our natural body dies is not the same body that shall be raised immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds. The spiritual body raised shall be that which is spiritual, or as that which is heavenly/celestial, we shall be the image of that which is in heaven after the death of our flesh.

Paul does not postpone the resurrection that already happened until a final Trumpet.

You are in the same boat declaring there was never a resurrection as those here:

"Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not."

They were not denying a future resurrection. They were denying the dead rise not, implying they could not rise until the final Trumpet as you put it. It was not that they denied the resurrection of Jesus. They denied the resurrection of all when Jesus Himself was resurrected.

So why do some still preach there is no resurrection of the dead until the end of time?

You still don't understand how Christ became the firstfruits. Christ became Lazarus so Lazarus would have eternal life when Lazarus walked out of the tomb in his new permanent incorruptible physical body. Jesus said, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. Lazarus was the Resurrection and the Life. Lazarus was no longer in corruption of sin and death. Lazarus was a firstfruit. Lazarus was in Christ. Christ was in Lazarus. So explain how Lazarus was not a firstfruits per 1 Corinthians 15 in the order of being made alive. Paul does not mention a Trumpet in that order. Paul says Christ the firstfruits (plural the entire OT body of redeemed souls including Lazarus), next at the Second Coming (those alive on the earth). Then comes the end after the thousand year reign where Jesus as King personally rules until all creation is brought under subjection. No mention at all about a Trumpet nor a final resurrection. Paul pivots from a physical resurrection to literally being made alive out of Adam's state of death. Those at the Second Coming not even tasting death. Neither has the church tasted death since the Cross. Death being the grave/sheol. So if no one has tasted death, since the Cross, there will not be a final resurrection for those in Christ. They are already in Paradise individually and corporately in Christ, because Christ is in them.

I am not saying there is no resurrection. I am saying there is no death, so no need. Paul was talking about those who claimed there were no physical bodies currently in Paradise. They denied the instant point of resurrection because they denied the point that a physical body could be in Paradise post the Cross.

Paul went to all that trouble to declare a different body in Paradise, and then many state there is not even a physical body in Paradise, because there is no resurrection, until some final Trumpet at the end of some symbolic thousand years.

You do understand that a soul or spirit corporately in heaven is not a resurrection? If so, then you do deny there was a resurrection at the Cross, and there is a physical body since then for all in Paradise. That is denying a resurrection of the dead. Paul did not explicitly state they denied a resurrection at the end of time, so why make that implication? Paul himself never pointed out their error saying there was a resurrection at the end of time in that chapter. All this "end of time stuff" is your assertion, and insertion of the entire thought into 1 Corinthians 15.

And in Revelation 20, there is no explicit nor implication of a final resurrection at the end of time either. You have inserted that thought into Revelation 20 as well. One would say your insertion has created a circular argument about some symbolic thousand year period based on the explicit point there is no resurrection at all.

You use Paul's point that some denied a resurrection to state there is no resurrection, but then have no final resurrection to prove your point in either chapter. Paul never said they denied a final resurrection. Unless they were Sadducees, or annihilist, being Greeks and assuming new converts to Christ, they accepted the resurrection of Christ. They denied a resurrection to those in Christ. Paul did say to them that they would have to deny the resurrection of Christ if denying a resurrection of the dead. So in fact, if you deny those redeemed in the OT had a physical resurrection, and currently have a permanent incorruptible physical body, you are saying the same thing they did, there is no such resurrection.

The whole point about Adam's death was the change from a permanent incorruptible physical body to a temporal corruptible physical body. The resurrection called the first resurrection is the restoration back to the permanent incorruptible physical body. The only souls throughout history needing that restoration were those waiting in Abraham's bosom until the Cross. Since the Cross, the change is instant. No more waiting in death period.

Lazarus was the last OT saint to die, and the first to be resurrected. You know that saying the last shall be first and the first shall be last? It does not apply to your end of time resurrection scenario.

 

[Timtofly]

No, I was taking issue with those who believe that we go to heaven after we die. You responded to my assertion by claiming that I didn't understand 2 Corinthians 5:1. I took your comment as a rebuttal to suggest that, indeed, we go to heaven, presumably to be with our bodies.

I take note of two issues regarding Paul's description. He tells us that we have a building from God . . . eternal in the heavens. (plural) Heaven may be where God resides but "the heavens" (plural) refers to the planetary bodies. In this context, Paul is using the word "heavens" figuratively as a metaphor to indicate that our new bodies will share attributes in common with the place where the planets and stars live. That is, our bodies will be like the celestial bodies in that, like the heavens, our lifetimes will be endless.

Secondly, if we are putting on our heavenly dwelling, then Paul is referring to what we will be, not where we will live. I don't think we can turn to 2 Corinthians 5 in order to discover where we will live when we go to be with the Lord. For that question, we might turn to 1 Thessalonians, where Paul says that we will rise to be with the Lord in the air -- meaning the clouds. (The Greeks had two words for "air" one for the lower denser air and another word for the higher, rarer air.) Paul is talking about meeting Jesus in the lower denser air, which we call "clouds." Presumably, we will always be with the Lord no matter where he is located.

That is why I pointed out you don't see. You change an explicit point into some symbolic nonsense.

Jesus said today you will be with me in Paradise. This word is used 3 times in the entire Bible. So 3 witnesses, and no guess work. Here are the other two: 2 Corinthians 12:2-4

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) How that he was caught up into paradise."

Paul explicitly equates the third heaven with Paradise. Revelation 2:7

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

John explicitly states that the tree of life is in Paradise. I don't understand why you have to guess and make up stuff about heaven or where those in Christ currently are in their physical bodies? Christ explicitly told the thief he would be in the third heaven where the tree of life is because those are explicitly given facts in God's Word.

It certainly is not meaning soul sleep in a grave somewhere. I still don't understand the need to symbolize away an explicit statement of fact. Paul did not say heavenly body. Once again:

"For we know (no need to guess or make stuff up) that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (the explicit condition you are currently in) were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands (the explicit condition you will be in when the soul leaves the current condition) , eternal in the heavens (the location, third heaven, Paradise) ."

Do people just sit around in Paradise? No!

"have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

"clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"

They had physical bodies with physical eyes and hands clothed with physical clothes, and had physical palm leaves, as Paradise is a garden obviously with physical palm trees.

The thief was with the Lamb from the very beginning. All redeemed have been with Jesus in Paradise since the first century. How can that be left to guess work and imagination?

Paul states one is caught up in the first century. Paul does not say he knew someone caught up thousands of years in the future. The thief on the Cross was obviously caught up to the third heaven, Paradise. That is explicitly what Jesus said would happen. Those OT redeemed came out of their graves in physical bodies and were permanently resurrected by ascending to Paradise with Jesus in Christ, because Christ was now in them. They have been with the Lamb serving God day and night in that heavenly temple, as are all in Christ since the Cross.

The only time we meet in the air is at the Second Coming when Jesus brings those with Him from Paradise to meet us being caught up and changed in the process. Itvis at that point the robe of white, the spirit is put on over the physical body, and the church is glorified as one body. Then all will be restored as sons of God, soul, body, and spirit.


Those in Abraham's bosom were restored souls. They were restored into physical bodies at the Cross. At the Second Coming all will be fully restored as sons of God. That is not all that is made alive though. Paul continues until the end after the reign of Jesus on the earth, the 1,000 years given in Revelation 20. I do not see those of the glorified church on earth during the Millennium, just like no one was left on earth at any other time of restoration. Nor do I see that since Paul said "every man in his own order" Paul was ever implying a one time general resurrection.

My opinion on the argument against them is that they understood there was a resurrection, but they reverted to Ecclesiastes and gave up hope of any resurrection at all. People still use that bad argument today. Bad interpretation of Scripture on their part giving way to false doctrine. Paul does not state a future resurrection, but that all would be made alive in Christ. Now many are still of the false opinion that all are still in a state of death, which is not true, as all are made alive each in his own order. All have been made alive even before Paul wrote 1 Corinthians. Many have been made alive since then. They are currently physically enjoying Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

The serpent was intentionally created to be more cunning and crafty (not in a good way) than the rest. And knowing by his being created this way he would be able to deceive the humans He created in His likeness & image, God allowed him to be with A&E in the garden to tempt them, why? Ask yourself why A&E must have knowledge of both good and evil, they did not have before eating of the forbidden tree? Must these traits be experienced to understand them? Is that why God allowed this deception He knew would bring sin and death through sin to His very good creation?

They never needed such knowledge nor experience. There was literally no reason necessary to trust Satan. Adam disobeyed God. That is the only point to what happened.

Death and sin was the result of Adam's disobedience.

 

[ewq1938]

I take note of two issues regarding Paul's description. He tells us that we have a building from God . . . eternal in the heavens. (plural) Heaven may be where God resides but "the heavens" (plural) refers to the planetary bodies.

It can also refer to heaven where God and his throne are.

Heb_8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

The building of God in the heavens is the new body, and it is not floating in outer space but is in heaven, which is in the heavens.

 

[CadyandZoe]

just like Adam and Eve instantly changed from life to death

I don't see where it says that Adam and Eve changed.

In Hebrews 11 it was called translated when Enoch was changed from one physical body to another physical body

I don't see where it says that Enoch changed.

Why do you deny the bodily resurrection of Matthew 27:52-53?

Where did I deny it?

Now if their old body was dissolved we know they have a new permanent incorruptible physical body from God.

Where does it say they had a permanent body?

Those souls came out of Abraham's bosom, because that is where Jesus said they were. Luke 16:22-23

Jesus spoke about Lazarus. He didn't generalize it.

The OT redeemed were in the heart of the earth near to sheol.

Where does it say that Sheol is near the heart of the earth?

Paul says we know when a soul is placed in a physical body

Where does Paul say that a soul is placed in a physical body?

because the body does not morph nor change, the soul changes bodies.

Where does it say that the body doesn't morph or change? Where does it say that the soul changes bodies?

Peter also stated in 1 Peter 3, that at the Cross Jesus entered sheol and preached to those even from the days prior to the Flood.

Peter doesn't say that Jesus preached to those in Sheol.

So explain at what other time did Jesus descend to lead captivity captive as mentioned in Psalms 68?

descended into the lower parts of the earth
Here Paul indicates that Jesus was laid in a tomb.

ascended far above all the heavens
Here Paul indicates that Jesus was given authority over all of creation.

when Jesus ascended to heaven on Sunday morning after talking to Mary.

Jesus didn't ascend to heaven until much later after that. Refer to Acts 1:6ff

The order of being restored, made alive after Adam was placed into death, started with the firstfruits from out of Abraham's bosom.

Jesus is the firstfruits, not those mentioned in Matthew 27.

 

[Davidpt]

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The spiritual body that is raised when our natural body dies is not the same body that shall be raised immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds. The spiritual body raised shall be that which is spiritual, or as that which is heavenly/celestial, we shall be the image of that which is in heaven after the death of our flesh. As on earth we are the image of the first man, so too after we die we shall be the image of the heavenly Lord a spiritual body of believers there. Changed from natural body to spiritual body. If there is not spiritual life in heaven after our body dies and returns to the dust, then Christ would not has said that all who live and believe in Him shall NEVER die.

I certainly don't agree with this. And neither does Paul nor the Bible. But I have already went over reasons why I don't in another thread.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is why I pointed out you don't see. You change an explicit point into some symbolic nonsense.

I didn't change anything. I maintain that "heavens" (plural) refers to the stars and the planets -- a place associated with the eternal. The plural "heavens" doesn't refer to the abode of God.

I don't understand why you have to guess and make up stuff about heaven . . .

I didn't make anything up about heaven. It seems that you missed the fact that Paul spoke about "heavens" in plural, referring to the abode of the stars, rather than "heaven" singular, which is the abode of God. It's important to read the text more carefully. Paul is using an idiomatic expression that was commonly understood by people in his culture. The phrase "in the heavens" has a particular meaning among Paul's contemporaries, different from the meanings of each word considered separately. It's like a figure of speech such as "stash it away" or "lock it up," which, in our culture, means "place it somewhere guarded and safe.

When someone uses the phrase 'Take it to the bank', they are not speaking in a literal sense. Rather, the phrase means to believe or trust that something is true or reliable. Similarly, when Paul says that our bodies are 'in the heavens', he is not speaking literally. The phrase is a metaphorical representation of the idea that our bodies are not connected to the present life or this world, but rather they are timeless and unchanging.

I still don't understand the need to symbolize away an explicit statement of fact.

If Paul intends to use symbolic language, then we need to understand his message according to what he intended. The phrase "in the heavens" isn't meant to be taken literally. It is an idiom that means "something unrelated to the present life or this world. It is unchanging and timeless." Paul is not locating where our new body is. He is saying what our new body is.

Paul did not say heavenly body. Once again:

"For we know (no need to guess or make stuff up) that if our earthly house of this tabernacle (the explicit condition you are currently in) were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands (the explicit condition you will be in when the soul leaves the current condition) , eternal in the heavens (the location, third heaven, Paradise) ."

Notice the plural form of the word -- "eternal in the heavens." The phrase "in the heavens" literally means "up in the night sky." In Paul's day the phrase "in the heavens" is a figure of speech, indicating an inherent characteristic of the body God will make for us -- unchanging and timeless.

They had physical bodies with physical eyes and hands clothed with physical clothes, and had physical palm leaves, as Paradise is a garden obviously with physical palm trees.

Note the use of the future tense. John is describing a future event, not a present reality.

The thief was with the Lamb from the very beginning. All redeemed have been with Jesus in Paradise since the first century. How can that be left to guess work and imagination?

It's left for you to prove.

Paul states one is caught up in the first century. Paul does not say he knew someone caught up thousands of years in the future.

Paul speaks about his own experience, when he was personally caught up to Paradise. This event has no bearing on the question of whether he and others will reign on earth with Christ for a thousand years. And it has no bearing on the topic of where we go after we die.

The thief on the Cross was obviously caught up to the third heaven, Paradise. That is explicitly what Jesus said would happen.

Are you sure? The word "paradise" means "garden." Where was Jesus buried? John 19:41

Those OT redeemed came out of their graves in physical bodies and were permanently resurrected by ascending to Paradise with Jesus in Christ, because Christ was now in them. They have been with the Lamb serving God day and night in that heavenly temple, as are all in Christ since the Cross.

Where does it say they were permanenty resurrected? Where does it say that they went to Paradise? If they went to Paradise AFTER they were raised, where were they before that?

The only time we meet in the air is at the Second Coming when Jesus brings those with Him from Paradise to meet us being caught up and changed in the process.

I don't see where Paul says that people come from Paradise. But if they come from paradise, why does Paul say that we rise UP to meet the Lord in the air?

Those in Abraham's bosom were restored souls.

Reference?

I do not see those of the glorified church on earth during the Millennium, just like no one was left on earth at any other time of restoration.

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It can also refer to heaven where God and his throne are.

Heb_8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

The building of God in the heavens is the new body, and it is not floating in outer space but is in heaven, which is in the heavens.

Even here the phrase is figurative.

 

[ewq1938]

Even here the phrase is figurative.

No, the throne and where Christ sits is literal.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, the throne and where Christ sits is literal.

hmm, I don't think so. God is transcendent and he is spirit. He doesn't literally sit anywhere.

 

[ewq1938]

hmm, I don't think so. God is transcendent and he is spirit. He doesn't literally sit anywhere.

Of course he does. He even hands his son a book while sitting on that real throne.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus is the firstfruits, not those mentioned in Matthew 27.

Jesus needed to be made alive?

Jesus was a sinner in need of salvation?

Jesus is plural?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course he does. He even hands his son a book while sitting on that real throne.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Well, I can't dispute what you are saying since we are given very little information regarding this subject. You could be right. I would like to have more information before I commit myself one way or the other.

I am right about the fact that God is a transcendent spirit. And so, if he is seen sitting on a throne, what one "sees" will be a theophany of some sort.

I am cautious about drawing conclusions about what God looks like or what he actually does from the book of Revelation, as it is symbolic by nature.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus needed to be made alive?

Jesus was a sinner in need of salvation?

Jesus is plural?

I don't understand your questions. I assume we are both looking at the same text.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.​

Christ has been raised from the dead . . .
Paul is defending his gospel against those who claim that there is no resurrection. He argues that if there is no resurrection, then Christ was not raised, and we will not be raised. Therefore, he says, "[T]hose also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied." The topic of Paul's message is the resurrection of Christ and his followers.

the first fruits of those who are asleep.
In the Hebrew religion, a small portion of the harvest was given to God to signify that the entire crop not only belonged to God but that God was responsible for producing the entire crop. The offering is an act of reverence and trust. Likewise, according to Paul, Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection together are a "first fruits" offering, signifying his trust that God will raise his followers from the dead. Jesus was the first to rise from the dead and guarantee the resurrection of all believers. His first fruits offering guarantees an abundant harvest of believers at this coming.

after that those who are Christ’s at His coming
God will raise those who are in Christ from the dead. He will raise them from the dead at the coming of Jesus.

in Christ all will be made alive.
The resurrection of Jesus guaranteed the resurrection of all those "in Christ."