They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Timtofly]

When a lifeless body was transformed by God, it resulted in the creation of a living being.

You just did yourself what you condemned. How do you know it was a lifeless body? That is your own recipe of creation.

You and other posters here seem to think your personal spirit came out of God at that moment and entered a lifeless body, and then it became you a soul. Your spirit and soul are two very different things and not related to air nor the Holy Spirit.

I am saying Genesis 2:7 is still not enough information to make an informative fact of reality. You insist we should not make stuff up, and then you insert a lifeless body into the text.

Moses wrote what God told him to write in Genesis. You will not find any defining information on your spirit in Genesis because God chose not to reveal all the facts.

Either that breath of God from God was just literal air, or the Holy Spirit. It cannot be your personal spirit, because your personal spirit is neither air nor the Holy Spirit.

Adam as a son of God was already formed soul, body, and spirit and may have been lifeless or may have been functioning to some extent. We don't know and cannot just state facts. The soul was given life at that point because it says a living soul. Nothing in that verse says the body nor spirit were not functioning. The verse implies the soul was not functioning.

So many just assume the body and spirit equate the soul and the soul is literally nothing. You are the soul, the only real part of this physical and spiritual aspect that is put on over the soul.

Your soul relates to whom the Holy Spirit is. Your physical body relates to whom Jesus as the Word is. Your spirit is put on over the physical body and relates to whom God is. The image of mankind as a son of God has 3 distinct parts just as the Lord has 3 parts: God, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

When Adam disobeyed God, he lost the spirit that covered the physical body, and became spiritually dead or separated from God, no longer in God's image. Adam lost the permanent incorruptible physical body which Jesus had from conception, and Adam was no more in the image of Jesus/Word physically. The soul was dead spiritually and physically no longer in God's image. The soul of Adam no longer even in tune with the Holy Spirit.

Then you go with modern definitions and modern theology to claim Adam was not literally dead just like Satan deceived Eve and claimed they would not literally die. The only thing going for them was a temporal corruptible physical body. A body that now needed to eat from the tree of life. Their former body did not need to eat. They just did eat.

A body returning to dust was the least of their problems. Their soul was now bereft of the Holy Spirit, and they were seperated from their spirit, the one connection they had with God. Theology wants to conflate the soul and spirit because no human can reconcile the loss of one's spirit as what happened to Adam and Eve. One's spirit is not dead inside them, waiting to be quickened. That is only human assumption.

One can argue there are a few verses that seem explicit. But the same word used for spirit, Spirit (Holy Spirit), or demon possession is the same Greek word as air.

 

[Timtofly]

I disagree. The subject of 1 Corinthians 15 is the resurrection of the body.

"how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
“How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”

In order to address objections to the Gospel, Paul starts his argument in the chapter with a witness report of the gospel message. This message is that just as Jesus was raised from the dead, his followers will also be raised from the dead. This is the essence of the gospel. Someone may try to challenge Paul's claim by questioning the concept of resurrection, while another might question the likelihood of a reconstituted body to challenge the concept of resurrection. In any case, Paul is not talking about spirituality or the spiritual aspect of life. He is not talking about being reborn, born from above, the new birth, or being born again. This passage is concerned with the perpetuation of the individual.

As you put it, one body is subject to death. The other body is not. That is the difference. Otherwise both bodies are physically the same. One is temporal, the other permanent. One likened to a tabernacle that can be taken apart and assembled any where. There other a more permanent building. One of corruption, the other of incorruption.

No verse claims one body morphs into the other body in either direction. The soul changes bodies like a suit of clothing.

"How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”

They certainly don't come back in the temporal corruptible physical body inherited from their parents from Adam and Eve.

The soul is in God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Both bodies are the same physically.

Yes there was a bodily resurrection at the Cross. The entire church, called out assembly of OT redeemed waiting as souls in Abraham's bosom, put on God's permanent incorruptible physical body and came out of their graves. No one since then, who is redeemed are in a grave somewhere, nor their soul in Abraham's bosom. All the church have been physically enjoying Paradise since 30AD. They did have a physical body then, and still do today.

Only those alive on the earth at the Second Coming are waiting to change physical bodies.

 

[Timtofly]

I respectfully disagree. Paul is talking not about being taken to heaven, but being resurrected from the dead and changed. I don't see anything in the passage about being taken to heaven.

That is why you don't "see" 2 Corinthians 5:1 where Paul clarifies 1 Corinthians.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

That permanent incorruptible physical body is eternal in the heavens, just as Paul wrote.

 

[PinSeeker]

One more time

Yes, "one more"…. LOL!

Let's talk about the word "in", because as you say, it's a very important word, and let's consider who died, who was quickened, and who was raised from death.

Well, it’s great that you agree on the importance of that ‘in’ there, but in the same sentence you turn right around and, well, throw it away... Which, of course, is not surprising to me, but wow. We're talking about Ephesians 2:4-6 specifically, Fullness Of The Gentiles, We were dead in our trespasses, and we were made alive together with Christ, And we have been saved by grace, and we have been raised up ~ resurrected ~ in Christ Jesus. We were dead in our trespasses, but now we are alive in Jesus. In the latter sentence there

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." -- John 3:6

Such a great verse. So, Nicodemus, you should understand that in light of the following, and vice versa:

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (David, Psalm 51:5)​

​

"...sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned... if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many... if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:12-21)​

"But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Romans 8:10)​

Astonishing that you yourself quote that last one from Romans 8, but still drastically change the very context in which Paul says that... or, actually, apply the same context to both verse 10 and verse 11 in terms of tense, or time frame. Verse 11 does in fact say what will be the case in the future when Jesus returns; that's why I left it out of what I'm saying here; in verse 10 Paul is speaking of what presently is the case. So verse 11, while entirely valid, of course, is beyond the immediate issue we're discussing. The point is, both David and Paul are here speaking to our state in this life, David before being born again of the Spirit, even from conception, and Paul both before and after, in this life.

And that makes the rest of your post ~ there there are some good things in there; I'm not saying it's all wrong/bad :) ~ uh, we'll just say, a little off... :) It's just beside the immediate issue we're discussing.

"Born of the flesh" is referring to physical birth.

Well, yes, but "of the flesh" is referring to our nature and our natural proclivity to sin... our enmity with God. We have to be, to be in Christ, born again ~ in this life, Nicodemus... do not marvel that Jesus said this to him ~ and thus made to be "of the Spirit" instead of "of the flesh." You're inadvertently limiting what Paul says there.

You received life from your parents. You never had life before then.

Well, sure. :)

When you were born into the world, what were you raised from?

We were not raised/resurrected from anything at that point. Astounding that you would even ask that. But we were born into... something, and were thus of... something. Not that I don't know what that something is; Scripture is very clear, over and over again, about what we are born into and thus of ~ who we are of; Jesus answers this specifically in His conversation with the Jews he is speaking to in John 8:44, as I have said ~ naturally, from birth.

When you were born of the Spirit, you received eternal life from God. You never had eternal life before then.

Ah, well, sure, but we will not actually take hold of eternal life until... eternity, the age to come. :) We will be resurrected to eternal life at a future time (when Jesus returns), just as He says in John 5:29.

What was your spirit raised from when you were born of the Spirit?

Death in our trespass/sin, as Paul says. Indeed a spiritual resurrection.

"But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit of Christ is your life because of His righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you." -- Romans 8:10-11

"Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive [zōopoiéō] in the spirit." -- 1 Peter 3:18

Interesting, your quote of Romans 8:10, which, as does Ephesians 2:6, also speaks of/to the spiritual resurrection we have experienced… see above...

When Christ had been put to death in the flesh, was He spiritually raised or bodily raised when He was quickened by the Spirit?

Yes. :) In His humanness, He was spiritually (as well as bodily) raised, but in His deity, He was never in need of such. And… you surely don’t think He was a spirit when He was raised physically… do you? I’m… hacking atcha a bit, FOTG. :)

When we have been BORN of the Spirit, then through His Spirit (i.e the Spirit of Christ) dwelling in us, "even us being DEAD in sins, God has

(1) syzōopoiéō...

(2) synegeírō...

Yet again, right with you on the words used, and right with you on the sequence, too:

Right with you on the quickening (syzōopoiéō, as if you somehow have to use the Greek Word Paul uses there; yes, it is what it is) itself as you point out in #1 ~ we have been made alive, born again of the Spirit; we were always in agreement on that.

And we were always eye to eye on the raised thing itself ~ yes, synegeírō, a resurrection.

But yet again ~ and here is the real issue that you keep missing or avoiding ~ Paul is speaking to living people, both then and by extension now, in the past tense regarding this resurrection, so he cannot be speaking of a resurrection of the body, because they were not and we are not yet physically deceased; they were and we are very much physically and bodily alive. And we are ~ again, very much present tense ~ seated in the heavenly places in ~ not with, (yet), but in is what the text says, you yourself correctly quoted it ~ Christ Jesus. And the same is true in Romans 8, that, yes, the body is (present tense) dead because of sin, but we are not physically dead yet, so we have to reconcile that because we can't be physically alive and physically dead at the same time... astounding that I actually have to explicitly state that... And he is irrefutably talking about our resurrection ~ "you have been raised" ~ and not Jesus's, else he would have said "He has been raised" in that passage somewhere in there, somehow, yet he did/does not.

...synegeírō (the word is referring in this verse to the resurrection of CHRIST'S body)...

LOL! No, us, in the very real spiritual sense.

... raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection,

Because of Christ's bodily resurrection...

Okay, that's quite enough. Hoo, boy. :) Now, remember, you previously said "one last time"...

Grace and peace to you, Fullness of the Gentiles.

Epilogue:

I had to shorten this because of character limit...

Thank God for character limits.

HAHAHAHA! Sorry, FOTG, just having a little fun with you. :)

 

[rwb]

Ok, this is where I’m not seeing eye to eye with you.

If “until” doesn’t mean when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, then why would Luke 17:30-31 say the Son of man is revealed?
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Doesn’t this imply that once the Son of man is revealed, the people He is revealed to will take action? I wouldn’t think the Son of man needs to be revealed to believers (at least believers who aren’t blind in part) as we already know Him.

The Pharisees ask when the Kingdom of God should come, and the answer Christ gave them was that through Him the Kingdom of God has come already, but in unbelief they did not understand when Christ said that the Kingdom of God is not visible, because it is within you. Some will argue that "within" is a faulty translation and the true mean is "among you". That makes little sense to me because Christ said He would send His Spirit that had been with the Old Covenant saints to be in them after His resurrection and ascension.

Then Christ also speaks of the last day when He would come again, that shall be as in the days of Noah and Lot when destruction came upon those left behind suddenly, leaving none alive except those God promised to spare. Christ says His coming again will be as quick as lighting, and none will be able to escape the fiery wrath that shall come upon the whole earth. On that day, the last day, when the seventh trumpet sounds the one is taken up to meet the Lord in the air, while the one left behind will not have any more time for turning to Christ to be saved. The ones left behind at the end of this age for building the Kingdom of God as the Gospel is proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit, shall be utterly destroyed by the fire that shall come down upon the earth on that day.

These day(s) are the days of the Son of man Christ. Like the days before the coming of the flood upon the whole earth, the people living in the days of Noah had heard the warning through the preaching of Noah. They chose not to heed the warnings of the coming doom that would come to the whole earth, and all but Noah and his family perished in the waters of the flood. As those days were while Noah was building the ark, so too these days of the Son of man for building the Kingdom of God have been since Christ came to earth in His Kingdom. There won't be any more time for those in unbelief to become saved once the final day of this age of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God has ended and Christ is seen coming in the clouds visibly seen, just as He was seen visibly ascending up in the clouds as He departed from this earth to heaven.

Luke 17:26 (KJV) And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

 

[rwb]

I respectfully disagree. Paul is talking not about being taken to heaven, but being resurrected from the dead and changed. I don't see anything in the passage about being taken to heaven.

Then do you think the physical resurrection that shall come when the last trumpet sounds will be to physical becoming immortal & incorruptible when man shall once again be complete with body + spirit (breath of life) to become a living soul? OR do you believe when man is bodily resurrected it will be in a spiritual body and not physical as man was in the beginning when God created man? If the dead body is raised a spiritual body where do you think the spirit will go if not back to God who gave it? (Ecc 12:7)

 

[CadyandZoe]

You just did yourself what you condemned. How do you know it was a lifeless body? That is your own recipe of creation.

You and other posters here seem to think your personal spirit came out of God at that moment and entered a lifeless body, and then it became you a soul. Your spirit and soul are two very different things and not related to air nor the Holy Spirit.

I am saying Genesis 2:7 is still not enough information to make an informative fact of reality. You insist we should not make stuff up, and then you insert a lifeless body into the text.

Moses wrote what God told him to write in Genesis. You will not find any defining information on your spirit in Genesis because God chose not to reveal all the facts.

All the information is there, which is why Paul can use that information to make his point.

1 Corinthians 15:44-46

[a person's body] is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.​

Paul asserts that Adam became a living soul, which is what Moses said also. From this we understand that the unification of Adam's body and his spirit changed Adam from inanimate dust into an animated being. I'm trying to express this idea using different words each time, hoping you might finally understand it.

Either that breath of God from God was just literal air, or the Holy Spirit.
It cannot be your personal spirit, because your personal spirit is neither air nor the Holy Spirit.

In the book of Genesis, the phrase "breath of life" is used instead of "breath of God". Similarly, Moses uses figurative language to help the reader understand the concept better, rather than using the literal definition of words. The main idea conveyed by Moses is that God has the power to give life to inanimate objects, including animals and humans. Adam, in particular, was imbued with life and became a living being. In addition, Moses reports God saying that he made man in his image, which we suspect includes qualities such as reason, language, and morality similar to God's.

Bottom line: we are a soul. The word "soul" indicates the whole person, the entire human being.

The Hebrew word for "living being" is "nephesh", which is translated into Greek as pseuche, which is translated "soul" in English. While the word is translated "soul" it refers to the whole person.

Did God literally blow into Adam's nose? No. Moses already indicated that God speaks things into existence. He doesn't fashion things using tools and materials he finds on the ground. When God created Adam, he probably said, "Let man exist." In fact, that's exactly what it says in Genesis 1:26. "And God said . . . and it was so."

It cannot be your personal spirit, because your personal spirit is neither air nor the Holy Spirit.

Adam as a son of God was already formed soul, body, and spirit and may have been lifeless or may have been functioning to some extent. We don't know and cannot just state facts. The soul was given life at that point because it says a living soul. Nothing in that verse says the body nor spirit were not functioning. The verse implies the soul was not functioning.

On the contrary, Moses says that God blew into Adam's nose "the breath of life." This clearly indicates that Adam was not functioning and he was lifeless before that.

So many just assume the body and spirit equate the soul and the soul is literally nothing.

No assumption is necessary. It's simple logic.

When Adam disobeyed God, he lost the spirit that covered the physical body,

Did he. Where does it say that?

The soul was dead spiritually and physically no longer in God's image.

Where is this in scripture?

Then you go with modern definitions and modern theology to claim Adam was not literally dead just like Satan deceived Eve and claimed they would not literally die.

They didn't literally die. Satan was correct about that.

The only thing going for them was a temporal corruptible physical body. A body that now needed to eat from the tree of life. Their former body did not need to eat. They just did eat.

Where does it say that?

A body returning to dust was the least of their problems. Their soul was now bereft of the Holy Spirit, and they were seperated from their spirit, the one connection they had with God. Theology wants to conflate the soul and spirit because no human can reconcile the loss of one's spirit as what happened to Adam and Eve. One's spirit is not dead inside them, waiting to be quickened. That is only human assumption.

A lot of what you say is missing from the Bible.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No verse claims one body morphs into the other body in either direction.

Sure it does. What is your definition of "change"?

The soul is in God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Both bodies are the same physically.

Where are you getting this? The Bible?

Yes there was a bodily resurrection at the Cross.

Docitism?

The entire church, called out assembly of OT redeemed waiting as souls in Abraham's bosom, put on God's permanent incorruptible physical body and came out of their graves. No one since then, who is redeemed are in a grave somewhere, nor their soul in Abraham's bosom. All the church have been physically enjoying Paradise since 30AD. They did have a physical body then, and still do today.

Only those alive on the earth at the Second Coming are waiting to change physical bodies.

Dead is dead.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Then do you think the physical resurrection that shall come when the last trumpet sounds will be to physical becoming immortal & incorruptible when man shall once again be complete with body + spirit (breath of life) to become a living soul?

Yes, that sounds about right.

OR do you believe when man is bodily resurrected it will be in a spiritual body and not physical as man was in the beginning when God created man? If the dead body is raised a spiritual body where do you think the spirit will go if not back to God who gave it? (Ecc 12:7

I am having trouble understanding the concept of a 'spiritual body'. It seems to me that the term 'spiritual' implies a body made of spirit. If I were translating 1 Corinthians 15, I wouldn't use the term "spiritual." Even when I read the passage in the NASB, it still sounds like Paul is referring to a body made of spirit. I'm not saying that this is what you mean, but this is how I hear the NASB translation.

Christians seem to get suckered into a "spirit-flesh" dualism mindset, especially because of the way our translations seem to support and emphasize the idea.

Spirit-flesh dualism is a belief that the human being consists of two distinct and opposed substances: spirit and flesh. Spirit is seen as good, pure, and eternal, while flesh is seen as evil, corrupt, and mortal. Spirit-flesh dualism often implies a negative view of the physical world and the human body and a desire to escape from them to a higher spiritual realm. Jesus, as God incarnate, demonstrated that flesh is not necessarily evil.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul does not discuss a spirit-flesh dualism. Rather, he uses the terms "natural body" and "spiritual body" to explain how a resurrected body will differ from our current body. It's important to note that Paul is not comparing flesh with spirit in this context, but instead, is comparing natural with supernatural.

The difference between natural and supernatural is that natural refers to phenomena that can be explained by the laws of nature and the physical world, while supernatural refers to phenomena that are beyond the scope of natural laws and the physical world.

To put it briefly, a "natural body" can be defined in terms of natural processes such as parents and birth, while a "spiritual body" (which I would prefer to translate as a "supernatural body") is one that is formed through supernatural means, which are beyond the scope of natural laws and the physical world. For example, time is a crucial factor in all natural processes, but according to Paul, we will be transformed in the blink of an eye, which I believe is typical of supernatural causes. God will create our resurrected bodies, endowing them with supernatural qualities such as indestructibility and so forth.

We will have "physical" bodies of a sort, but our bodies will conform to an entirely different physics than we currently have. I am taking my cues from Romans 8, where Paul talks about the fact that God subjected our current reality to "futility", which is another word for "entropy." Our reality is characterized by decay, dissolution, rot, discomposure, disintegration and etc. Human relations end in divorce, people go to war, couples break up, kids leave home on unfriendly terms. And as Saint Bobby said, "Everything is broken."

I can only speculate but it seems reasonable to conclude that a new heaven and a new earth will not be subjected to futility, decay, dissolution and etc. And human relations will strengthen, and become more meaningful and profound each day. :)

Wishful thinking?

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is why you don't "see" 2 Corinthians 5:1 where Paul clarifies 1 Corinthians.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

That permanent incorruptible physical body is eternal in the heavens, just as Paul wrote.

His purpose is not to locate the body itself; his purpose is to locate the source of the body.

 

[rwb]

I am having trouble understanding the concept of a 'spiritual body'. It seems to me that the term 'spiritual' implies a body made of spirit. If I were translating 1 Corinthians 15, I wouldn't use the term "spiritual." Even when I read the passage in the NASB, it still sounds like Paul is referring to a body made of spirit. I'm not saying that this is what you mean, but this is how I hear the NASB translation.

The way I have come to understand what Paul means by "spiritual body" is that he is using it in a corporate sense. IOW just as together on this earth all who are of Christ are referred to as a body of Christ. And we are one body with one Spirit one Church one holy people unto God, that does not change after physical death. I believe Paul is showing that the spirit of faithful saints that return to God are still one body, but after physical death only our spirit lives on when it returns to God, which is why Paul says "it is raised a spiritual body."

Romans 12:5 (KJV) So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:12 (KJV) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13-14 (KJV) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

 

[Timtofly]

Then do you think the physical resurrection that shall come when the last trumpet sounds will be to physical becoming immortal & incorruptible when man shall once again be complete with body + spirit (breath of life) to become a living soul? OR do you believe when man is bodily resurrected it will be in a spiritual body and not physical as man was in the beginning when God created man? If the dead body is raised a spiritual body where do you think the spirit will go if not back to God who gave it? (Ecc 12:7)

If Adam and Eve only had this alleged spiritual body that you claim was not physical, how were they husband and wife capable of having offspring?

This use of spiritual just means of God. The Bible is spiritual meaning of God, and is still a physical book you can read. A man called of God is holy and spiritual, yet still in human corruptible flesh. So Paul is not saying spiritual is the opposite of physical. Paul is saying spiritual of God, instead of natural of a husband and wife.

The physical body currently in Paradise is also said to be like the angels because there is no procreation. But no one thinks Adam and Eve had any offspring until they physically and spiritually died. The point about any resurrection is not that procreation is impossible. They don't need to fill up Paradise. People living on the earth populate the earth. Paradise is already filled with Adam's offspring that once filled up the earth generation after generation.

God never changed the concept of a physical body. When Adam disobeyed God, God did not let us live eternally in death. That is why Adam and Eve were placed in temporal corruptible physical bodies. They lived hundreds of years until God shortened that to 120 years. Later that was shortened to 70 years. Yet even today life has been prolonged for up to a hundred years. At the time of Christ life expectancy was around 40.

There was already a resurrection at the Cross. God opened up physical Paradise where the physical tree of life can be found. They have been serving God day and night in that heavenly temple since the Cross. All the redeemed are there in physical permanent incorruptible bodies. They have been coming out of great tribulation over the last 1993 years. At the Second Coming, the church on earth will end and after all of Adam's flesh is removed, Jesus will reign over humans also restored into permanent incorruptible physical bodies for a thousand years while Satan is physically bound in the pit. The church remains in Paradise until after the NHNE. That is when they descend in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

All the information is there, which is why Paul can use that information to make his point.

1 Corinthians 15:44-46

[a person's body] is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.​

Paul asserts that Adam became a living soul, which is what Moses said also. From this we understand that the unification of Adam's body and his spirit changed Adam from inanimate dust into an animated being. I'm trying to express this idea using different words each time, hoping you might finally understand it.


In the book of Genesis, the phrase "breath of life" is used instead of "breath of God". Similarly, Moses uses figurative language to help the reader understand the concept better, rather than using the literal definition of words. The main idea conveyed by Moses is that God has the power to give life to inanimate objects, including animals and humans. Adam, in particular, was imbued with life and became a living being. In addition, Moses reports God saying that he made man in his image, which we suspect includes qualities such as reason, language, and morality similar to God's.

Bottom line: we are a soul. The word "soul" indicates the whole person, the entire human being.

The Hebrew word for "living being" is "nephesh", which is translated into Greek as pseuche, which is translated "soul" in English. While the word is translated "soul" it refers to the whole person.

Did God literally blow into Adam's nose? No. Moses already indicated that God speaks things into existence. He doesn't fashion things using tools and materials he finds on the ground. When God created Adam, he probably said, "Let man exist." In fact, that's exactly what it says in Genesis 1:26. "And God said . . . and it was so."



On the contrary, Moses says that God blew into Adam's nose "the breath of life." This clearly indicates that Adam was not functioning and he was lifeless before that.

No assumption is necessary. It's simple logic.

Did he. Where does it say that?

Where is this in scripture?

They didn't literally die. Satan was correct about that.

Where does it say that?

A lot of what you say is missing from the Bible.

Actually Adam was the same as the Second Adam, until he disobeyed God.

You are comparing Adam before he disobeyed God. Paul is comparing Christ to Adam's post disobedient condition.

Paul says we put on immortality that is putting on the spirit. John says in Revelation 6, we put on a robe of white. That is putting on the spirit.

God breathing the Holy Spirit into Adam is not the same as this spirit put on over the physical body. Adam was already soul, body, and spirit, before God breathed the Holy Spirit into Adam.

Obviously you are not taking this breath as literal air. We already know the Holy Spirit animates in Genesis 1:2

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

So the Holy Spirit is used to animate if that is your interpretation. The motion of all creation is attributed to the Holy Spirit. Even Jesus likened the Holy Spirit to wind.

You are incorrect when you claim the soul is just the body and spirit at work.

You are also incorrect as was Satan, that Adam and Eve did not physically died. They went from God's permanent incorruptible physical body to a mortal, temporal, corruptible physical body. One was of God, spiritual. The other of sin and death, natural. All thanks to Adam's disobedience.

 

[Timtofly]

Sure it does. What is your definition of "change"?

You think Adam morphed from one body to another? How does that incorporate death?

The soul changes a body like the body changes a set of clothes.

Paul likened it to being naked, and in need of clothing. 2 Corinthians 5:2-4

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

Once again death swallowed up by life.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Your current body being dissolved means it returns to dust, and mixes with all other atomic particles. Nothing from Paul that says the old body transforms or morphs into something from God. That physical body from God is brand new when the soul puts that body on.

The OT redeeemed had to wait in that naked state without a body in Abraham's bosom. But the Cross changed all that. The Cross opened up physical Paradise for physical bodies.

 

[Timtofly]

His purpose is not to locate the body itself; his purpose is to locate the source of the body.

Well they certainly are not dead somewhere.

Do you think God is not located in Heaven either?

 

[CadyandZoe]

The way I have come to understand what Paul means by "spiritual body" is that he is using it in a corporate sense. IOW just as together on this earth all who are of Christ are referred to as a body of Christ. And we are one body with one Spirit one Church one holy people unto God, that does not change after physical death. I believe Paul is showing that the spirit of faithful saints that return to God are still one body, but after physical death only our spirit lives on when it returns to God, which is why Paul says "it is raised a spiritual body."

Romans 12:5 (KJV) So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:12 (KJV) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13-14 (KJV) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

Okay, your explanation makes sense of verses 20-28*. But doesn't Paul's argument turn to the rhetorical question he asked in verse 35?

He begins this section with two, related rhetorical questions: "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" And given your thoughtful response, we are left with an interpretive decision: was Paul talking about individuals as individuals or the corporate body of Christ?

Paul answers the first question beginning with verse 36 and ending with verse 41.

That which you sow . . .
He likens the body to a seed that we plant in the ground. What we plant in the ground is not comparable to the mature plant associated with that seed. Unless one is an expert biologist, one can not tell by looking at the bare seed, what kind of plant will arise from the ground.

But God gives it a body . . .
He likens our resurrected body to a mature plant. We put a lifeless spec of genetic material into the ground, and what arises is a living plant. As to the question of "how" Paul asserts that God gives it a body. God is the one who has determined what kind of plant will arise out of the ground.

Here he seems to speak about the seed in the singular as if he is speaking about a single seed. God gives "it" a body, he says. (singular) Does this grammar have a bearing on our question?

Beginning in verse 42 he describes the changes that the body will experience, comparing and contrasting the body before the change with the body as it will be after the change. (A graphical summary follows)

A person in Christ now (Italics) / A person in Christ at the last trump (bold)
perishable / imperishable
dishonor / glory
weakness / power
natural body / spiritual body

This contrast and comparison is offered in response to the question, "[W]ith what kind of body do they come?" At this point, we might ask whether the body corporate is already a "spiritual" body. And I think the answer is yes, the body of Christ is an assemblage of spiritual people who have been granted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and have the Spirit of Christ that says, "Abba Father." (Thy will be done.) It follows that, Paul is now focused on comparing individual bodies that exist before the change (verse 51) and their bodies after the change.

Those in Christ don't need to be changed into spiritual people; they are already spiritual. What they lack is victory over death, which Christ will give them at his coming. In order to defeat death, God will give his followers imperishable bodies. What they gained through natural means, i.e. birth, is not adequate to live in a permanent world. We start our existence in the natural way, we continue our existence in a supernatural way.

Thanks for your thoughtful answer. I will continue to consider what you said and let it percolate a bit more. Have a good weekend.

_____________________
*1 Corinthians 15

 

[CadyandZoe]

Actually Adam was the same as the Second Adam, until he disobeyed God.

I have heard this explanation before, but I can't make sense of it. Some folks understand that Adam was perfect in all his ways before he sinned. The basis of this belief is found in the creation story, which says that God saw all that he made, and it was perfect.

Aren't we left with a question of motive? What was found in Adam that led him to disobey a direct commandment of God? Doesn't a sinful act indicate a sinful motive? Since God is holding Adam morally accountable for what he did, it is safe to say that Adam acted voluntarily, consciously, and affirmatively to eat the forbidden fruit. Given this is the case, we must conclude that Adam was NOT morally perfect and had sin in him.

According to Paul, Adam is the prototype of all humanity (except for Jesus.) Romans 5:14 We are just like our father Adam in that we also have sin in us just as he did.

Paul says we put on immortality that is putting on the spirit.

Paul frequently uses a metaphor that involves putting on clothes. To "put on" something is to dedicate oneself to an activity. To "put on" immorality is to live in accord with the gospel of being granted immorality. He speaks about this in his letter to the Romans 2. He says that at the judgment God will render eternal life "to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality." In other words, to "put on" immorality is to persevere in doing good. Only when one is committed to living in a manner worthy of immortality, will one be granted an imperishable body.

John says in Revelation 6, we put on a robe of white. That is putting on the spirit.

A robe is a temporary covering of the body. The color white represents righteous acts. (19:8)

God breathing the Holy Spirit into Adam is not the same as this spirit put on over the physical body. Adam was already soul, body, and spirit, before God breathed the Holy Spirit into Adam.

Not found in scripture.

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Jesus said that God is a spirit. So the genitive phase "Spirit of God" means "The Spirit which is God."

You are incorrect when you claim the soul is just the body and spirit at work.

Prove it.

You are also incorrect as was Satan, that Adam and Eve did not physically died.

Did I make that claim? No. Of course, Adam and Eve physically died, though I wouldn't say it that way. I maintain that when a person dies, the whole person dies -- body, soul, and spirit.

So what did God mean by "on the day you eat of it, you shall surely die?" The word "surely" isn't a part of the Hebrew text. The translator is attempting to make sense of the phrase "dying you will die." The NET Bible commentary has this. "The Hebrew text (“dying you will die”) does not refer to two aspects of death (“dying spiritually, you will then die physically”). The construction simply emphasizes the certainty of death, however it is defined."

That is, God means to say, "on the day you eat of it, the certainty of your death will become fixed."

They went from God's permanent incorruptible physical body to a mortal, temporal, corruptible physical body. One was of God, spiritual. The other of sin and death, natural. All thanks to Adam's disobedience.

Moses says nothing about a permanent body of any kind.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You think Adam morphed from one body to another? How does that incorporate death?

I don't understand your question or from where it comes. Was I talking about Adam? I thought you knew the subject we were discussing, which is Paul's letter to the Corinthians, wherein he tells us that death will be defeated when we are all changed. Adam didn't change at all.

You asserted that "no verse claims that one body morphs into the other body in either direction." I reminded you of Paul's assertion that we will all be changed. I wondered if you understood the concept of change differently than I did. In my view, Paul means to say that our bodies will be altered or transformed. Apparently, your view is that God will exchange our current body with another one. If that is what Paul meant, I have no problem with that. But I would need to see evidence that Paul was talking about an exchange of bodies rather than a transformation of bodies, not that it matters in the end.

But I can't see any evidence in Genesis that Adam underwent a transformation or an exchange of bodies.

The soul changes a body like the body changes a set of clothes.

I'm not sure I agree with you because God is the one performing the change. The soul doesn't have any say in it.

Paul likened it to being naked, and in need of clothing. 2 Corinthians 5:2-4

the earthly tent
The word tent indicates the temporal aspect of our current body. The word "earthly" indicates the source of our current body, perhaps even the materials of that body, i.e. dust.

We have a building from God . . .
Paul indicates the source of our new body.

Eternal in the heavens . . .
Indicates the quality of our new body. Jesus exhorted us to store up for ourselves treasures in heaven, because heaven is a place where there is neither moth nor rust and men can't steal.

Thus, the comparison between earthly and heavenly is a comparison between the temporal and the eternal.

Once again death swallowed up by life.

In this context, mortal is an adjective, indicating a quality or attribute of our tent.

Your current body being dissolved means it returns to dust, and mixes with all other atomic particles.
Nothing from Paul that says the old body transforms or morphs into something from God. That physical body from God is brand new when the soul puts that body on.

Logically, what you say seems reasonable except for the fact that Paul speaks about the living also being changed. The living have not yet died and their body has not yet turned to dust. I realize what you just said is a problem for my view, i.e. that many of the dead Christians will have been turned to dust by the time of the change. It doesn't make sense to say that a pile of dust is being altered or transformed. I get that and I agree. And I am willing to think about the process in terms of an exchange of bodies since the result is still the same.

The OT redeeemed had to wait in that naked state without a body in Abraham's bosom. But the Cross changed all that. The Cross opened up physical Paradise for physical bodies.

I don't see this in the Bible.

 

[rwb]

Okay, your explanation makes sense of verses 20-28*. But doesn't Paul's argument turn to the rhetorical question he asked in verse 35?

He begins this section with two, related rhetorical questions: "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" And given your thoughtful response, we are left with an interpretive decision: was Paul talking about individuals as individuals or the corporate body of Christ?

Paul answers the first question beginning with verse 36 and ending with verse 41.

After making his argument of Christ being resurrected from the physical death that he proves through witnesses, Paul wonders of those who say there is no resurrection of the dead, since the dead Christ has been resurrected bodily.

1 Corinthians 15:12 (KJV) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Then Paul's argument is that if it were true, but he knows it isn't true, that the dead are not raised up, faith is vain and we are still in our sins. Worse for those who have already died in Christ have perished. It seems Paul is arguing against the thought of those who had already died in Christ having perished. Because if only in this life we have hope in Christ, we are all most miserable since Christ has not risen and there is no longer any hope for those who have already died believing in Him for eternal/everlasting life.

1 Corinthians 15:16-18 (KJV) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:19 (KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

It's easy to read over the next verse without realizing what Paul is saying here. Because Paul is saying that not only has Christ risen from the dead, in death He became the firstfruits of them that have already died. Here we need to ask ourselves how Christ has already become the firstfruits of them that have already died?

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Just as man brought death to mankind, so too Christ has brought eternal life to those who believe in Him. That life shall be both physical life again after death, but it is also eternal spirit life now and always through His Spirit in us. This happens according to the order in which man is while living saved. Christ, being the firstfruits through His Spirit, after we die, He is physically the firstfruits of man of faith when He comes again. And that's when the end of this age/time/era shall come. Because that's when He will destroy the last enemy of the flesh, that is physical death.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (KJV) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul asks what is the reason that man is baptized for the dead, if they believe there is no resurrection, being baptized into Jesus' resurrection life is foolishness if you think the dead do not rise at all. In believing that Christ is not resurrected, Paul says is a foolish belief, he warns they are in jeopardy every hour because they do not believe that Christ has been resurrected. Instead of rejoicing in their foolishness, they should be like he was, ready to give up His life daily for the sake of the Gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:29-31 (KJV) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Then Paul anticipates the question that some will have. How are the dead raised, and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Not Paul goes into much detail to prove our body MUST physically die to be quickened to life. And the body that is sown in the earth is NOT the body that is raised. It is a bare seed that will not be fully grown immediately after the flesh is dead. But God gives it (our dead flesh) a body that pleases Him, and to every seed that dies in faith, his own body. How is that which is dead and buried given his own body? It's not through flesh, because the flesh is terrestrial and decays, but there is also celestial bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:38-40 (KJV) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Paul speaks of celestial bodies as well as speaking of the sun, moon and stars, so it would be a mistake IMO to think of celestial bodies as being these things.

1 Corinthians 15:41 (KJV) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

The Hebrew definition for celestial bodies says these are things that are above the sky, being celestial and heavenly (Strongs G2032). Just as these things that are in the sky differ one from the other in glory, so also the resurrection of the dead. Our body of flesh shall also be sown in corruption, raised in incorruption, sown in dishonor, raised in glory, sown is weakness raised in power. It does not say that body of flesh shall be raised WITH power, but IN power. But before that which is corruptible is resurrected incorruptible and immortal from the dead, when our body dies it is raised a spiritual body, because there is both a natural body of believers on earth, and there is also a spiritual body of believers to inhabit the heavenly, celestial realm of God after our body of mortal flesh dies.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The spiritual body that is raised when our natural body dies is not the same body that shall be raised immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds. The spiritual body raised shall be that which is spiritual, or as that which is heavenly/celestial, we shall be the image of that which is in heaven after the death of our flesh. As on earth we are the image of the first man, so too after we die we shall be the image of the heavenly Lord a spiritual body of believers there. Changed from natural body to spiritual body. If there is not spiritual life in heaven after our body dies and returns to the dust, then Christ would not has said that all who live and believe in Him shall NEVER die.

 

[rwb]

This contrast and comparison is offered in response to the question, "[W]ith what kind of body do they come?" At this point, we might ask whether the body corporate is already a "spiritual" body. And I think the answer is yes, the body of Christ is an assemblage of spiritual people who have been granted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and have the Spirit of Christ that says, "Abba Father." (Thy will be done.) It follows that, Paul is now focused on comparing individual bodies that exist before the change (verse 51) and their bodies after the change.

Those in Christ don't need to be changed into spiritual people; they are already spiritual. What they lack is victory over death, which Christ will give them at his coming. In order to defeat death, God will give his followers imperishable bodies. What they gained through natural means, i.e. birth, is not adequate to live in a permanent world. We start our existence in the natural way, we continue our existence in a supernatural way.

Thanks for your thoughtful answer. I will continue to consider what you said and let it percolate a bit more. Have a good weekend.

I agree. Even though we are still clothed in bodies of flesh, all who are in Christ through His Spirit within us are a spiritual body in natural flesh while alive on earth. It isn't that we are CHANGED into a spiritual body when we die, but we change from being a natural spiritual body on earth to being a supernatural spiritual body of believers in heaven. Because we who have the Spirit of Christ within shall NEVER die, even though our flesh returns to the earth.

Have a blessed weekend also.