Abiding In Christ Necessary for Eternal Life

[GracePeace]

Why are you tryign to save yourself? Will you at least acknowledge you are trying to save yourself?

I do acknowledge I am having this discussion in order to hammer out, with God's help, a mental (not just words) balance between the justification by the righteousness of God that occurs upon hearing with faith and the ongoing justification that is by walking by faith (Ro 14:5,23). It is possible to have the right words (and all of the words are on my side), and still not affirm the right meaning--and it is possible to have errant words (as you obviously do), yet affirm the right meaning (which is why I grant people such as yourself can know God). I was told in prayer, when I did everything I believed, that I was doing these things for the wrong reason, trying to save myself, and that I only need Jesus, but all the years I've tried to live that, it hasn't worked. It doesn't result in fellowship with God--whereas living to obey God (physical acts of obedience--though I'm aware that's only part of obedience) resulted/results in God's presence. It's not so easy to understand.

 

[marks]

1 John 2:28 aims this language at "little children", therefore there is no question that it refers to God's children, true disciples with "true" faith.

I see this so often, references to verses given, with a claim of what the verse says, but not the actual verse posted. And I so often find in these situations that the referenced verse doesn't really say what is claimed.

I see your list of verses, I know these passages well enough that I don't need to see the text to see how you are intertwining them together. And again I'd say that putting each in their context would set things straight.

But rather than going that direction, I'll just say this. Your argument, as I see it, is stringing together a number of such inferences ("be ashamed at His coming" = "lose your salvation", for instance), at the end of which you draw your conclusion, that salvation can be lost. Those who are born again, sealed with the Holy Spirit, may become "unsealed", and dead again.

However, I'm looking at passages such as 1 John 3, Colossians 3, others, that make straightforward statements, no inference needed. Just to accept the straightforward teaching.

And these passages which you draw your inferences from, in fact if your conclusions were correct, they would be directly contradictory to these other, clearly stated passages. So that's a real problem!

I think we should start with the ones that make plain unambiguous statements. There's nothing wrong with a statement in the Bible being ambiguous, that just means there is more than one valid interpretation, and you need to go to the unambiguous statements to determine which way to understand this one.

So when the Bible says,

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

we can know that the sons of God will become like Jesus when they see Him. Plain, unambiguous, something that can be known. We who are sons of God now will be like Him then.

There isn't any place here for that not to happen.

Same thing here:

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

If you've been raised with Him, this means you've died with Him. And that means here, in this world, as we are to set our affections not on this world but on heaven, where Christ is. And if this is you - died and raised again in Christ - then you shall appear with Him when He appears in glory.

Again, no place here for that to not happen. It simply will.

No Scripture will contradict other Scripture. These statements of Scripture are unambiguous. They are simple statements with plain meaning.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Oops, He said "The one who IS BELIEVING" (continuous ongoing action in the present), not "the one who believes" (one-and-done), so, this goes to the "abiding" doctrine, which goes to the doctrine that continuing to receive the life depends on continuing to abide in Him where the life is.

It goes to the nature of Spiritual life. If you are alive in the Spirit you will continue to believe.

It's like that verse in Hebrews, You have been made partakers if you continue in the faith. Many interpret that as, you can stop being a partaker if you stop continuing in the faith, but if you know the actual grammar of the passages, it's saying you became a partaker - once and done, that is, perfect tense, if you continue in the faith. If you don't continue, it means you were not made a partaker.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

^

I see this so often, references to verses given, with a claim of what the verse says, but not the actual verse posted. And I so often find in these situations that the referenced verse doesn't really say what is claimed.

I see your list of verses, I know these passages well enough that I don't need to see the text to see how you are intertwining them together. And again I'd say that putting each in their context would set things straight.

But rather than going that direction, I'll just say this. Your argument, as I see it, is stringing together a number of such inferences ("be ashamed at His coming" = "lose your salvation", for instance), at the end of which you draw your conclusion, that salvation can be lost. Those who are born again, sealed with the Holy Spirit, may become "unsealed", and dead again.

However, I'm looking at passages such as 1 John 3, Colossians 3, others, that make straightforward statements, no inference needed. Just to accept the straightforward teaching.

And these passages which you draw your inferences from, in fact if your conclusions were correct, they would be directly contradictory to these other, clearly stated passages. So that's a real problem!

I think we should start with the ones that make plain unambiguous statements. There's nothing wrong with a statement in the Bible being ambiguous, that just means there is more than one valid interpretation, and you need to go to the unambiguous statements to determine which way to understand this one.

So when the Bible says,

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

we can know that the sons of God will become like Jesus when they see Him. Plain, unambiguous, something that can be known. We who are sons of God now will be like Him then.

There isn't any place here for that not to happen.

Same thing here:

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

If you've been raised with Him, this means you've died with Him. And that means here, in this world, as we are to set our affections not on this world but on heaven, where Christ is. And if this is you - died and raised again in Christ - then you shall appear with Him when He appears in glory.

Again, no place here for that to not happen. It simply will.

No Scripture will contradict other Scripture. These statements of Scripture are unambiguous. They are simple statements with plain meaning.

Much love!

1 Jn 2:28 instructs the children to abide, not be led away by idolatry (1 Jn 5:21). I've already provided the example of the Galatians. The branch that does not abide gets burned in the fire.

 

[GracePeace]

It goes to the nature of Spiritual life. If you are alive in the Spirit you will continue to believe.

It's like that verse in Hebrews, You have been made partakers if you continue in the faith. Many interpret that as, you can stop being a partaker if you stop continuing in the faith, but if you know the actual grammar of the passages, it's saying you became a partaker - once and done, that is, perfect tense, if you continue in the faith. If you don't continue, it means you were not made a partaker.

Much love!

This is not a problem--those who don't continue in the faith are blotted out, their righteousness (of faith) is forgotten (Ez 3:20), so it is as though they were never partakers in the first place (eg, "they were never of us"). The issue is you need to work with Scriptural precedent. Without that, nothing makes sense. Just as He can forget sin, He can forget righteousness. If you deny He blots names out, then you insinuate He isn't the same yesterday today and forever (Ex 32:33).

 

[marks]

This is not a problem--those who don't continue in the faith are blotted out, their righteousness (of faith) is forgotten (Ez 3:20), so it is as though they were never partakers in the first place (eg, "they were never of us"). The issue is you need to work with Scriptural precedent. Without that, nothing makes sense. Just as He can forget sin, He can forget righteousness. If you deny He blots names out, then you insinuate He isn't the same yesterday today and forever (Ex 32:33).

That's not what the passage says, though.

It says, you have become a partaker (something that doesn't change, perfect tense) if your faith continues. No, it's not saying that if your faith does not continue, then it's like you never were a partaker.

You see, this passage is commonly misunderstood as many do not realize the significance of the perfect tense (to be fair, it doesn't come through well in the translation). And so instead of taking the affirming statement given, You've become partakers if your faith continues, they switch it around into a disaffirming statement, you stop becoming a partaker if your faith doesn't continue.

However, the grammar doesn't allow that. It would be saying, if your faith doesn't continue, you will stop having been permanently made into a partaker. And that's terrible grammar! It's a self contradictory statement.

The true grammar of the passage is telling us, you've been permanently made a partaker if your faith continues. The fact of the perfect tense being used in this place is a very strong statement concerning the permanence of our rebirth.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

That's not what the passage says, though.

It says, you have become a partaker (something that doesn't change, perfect tense) if your faith continues. No, it's not saying that if your faith does not continue, then it's like you never were a partaker.

You see, this passage is commonly misunderstood as many do not realize the significance of the perfect tense (to be fair, it doesn't come through well in the translation). And so instead of taking the affirming statement given, You've become partakers if your faith continues, they switch it around into a disaffirming statement, you stop becoming a partaker if your faith doesn't continue.

However, the grammar doesn't allow that. It would be saying, if your faith doesn't continue, you will stop having been permanently made into a partaker. And that's terrible grammar! It's a self contradictory statement.

The true grammar of the passage is telling us, you've been permanently made a partaker if your faith continues. The fact of the perfect tense being used in this place is a very strong statement concerning the permanence of our rebirth.

Much love!

We interpret it differently--he tells them to continue, or else their having partaken will not have happened at all, because God will forget their righteousness of faith.

You see, in your systematic theology, there is no place for this Biblical dynamic (ie, of God forgetting righteousness, of Blotting names out of His Book); in mine, there is. It's just an "extra piece" you have left over after building your system that you don't seem to think much of. You don't need that piece. It's not important apparently. I can't live like that.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

John 10
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 16
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

I try and live by the underlined word above, not the pieces I like or agree with .
The accusers and even the disciples did not always grasp many of the parables or words Jesus spoke.
I understand that all the word is spiritually discerned and without him illuminating it we read / study in a dim light.

None have reached the glorified state that we " know" as he is.

However we must maintain a spirit of love in our communications w/o.seeing one another as our personal enemies!

 

[marks]

We interpret it differently--he tells them to continue, or else their having partaken will not have happened at all, because God will forget their righteousness of faith.

You see, in your systematic theology, there is no place for this Biblical dynamic (ie, of God forgetting righteousness); in mine, there is. It's just an "extra piece" you have left over after building your system that you don't seem to think much of. You don't need that piece. It's not important apparently. I can't live like that.

I don't have a "systematic theology". I don't think that way. Every part of the Bible deserves to be understood according to the exact thing it says. I don't believe in having some framework of ideas into which I have to find a way to fit every passage.

I really challenge you to examine that passage, it's grammar, the specific thing it says. There is no imperative to continue. It's a conditional clause, not a command, contained in an indicative statement. It's an indicative statement - gives information - that is true of you if the condition is true of you. This tells us something about those who trust in God. If that trust is lifelone, this means you've become a partaker (permanent).

An extra piece?

It's just an "extra piece" you have left over after building your system that you don't seem to think much of.

You are really off base with this comment. Totally! I think the problem here is that I'm the guy that's hanging onto every word. But don't try to make this about me, I'm not interested in that. The Bible says it or it doesn't, that's what I'm about.

"become partakers", perfect tense, meaning, something done that remains done.

Can you really not live like that? Then check this out.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I don't have a "systematic theology". I don't think that way. Every part of the Bible deserves to be understood according to the exact thing it says. I don't believe in having some framework of ideas into which I have to find a way to fit every passage.

I really challenge you to examine that passage, it's grammar, the specific thing it says. There is no imperative to continue. It's a conditional clause, not a command, contained in an indicative statement. It's an indicative statement - gives information - that is true of you if the condition is true of you. This tells us something about those who trust in God. If that trust is lifelone, this means you've become a partaker (permanent).

An extra piece?

It's just an "extra piece" you have left over after building your system that you don't seem to think much of.

You are really off base with this comment. Totally! I think the problem here is that I'm the guy that's hanging onto every word. But don't try to make this about me, I'm not interested in that. The Bible says it or it doesn't, that's what I'm about.

"become partakers", perfect tense, meaning, something done that remains done.

Can you really not live like that? Then check this out.

Much love!

If I came across uncharitably, I apologize, especially because I have yet to see you have the wrong attitude in interactions.

I accept your breakdown of the grammar (though I misspoke previously, having not had my eye on it--commenting that it contained a "command", which didn't even matter, since it was not my point, and wouldn't affect my point either way), I just differ with you on its meaning. You have become partakers if you continue in it--because your having partaken will be forgotten, will never have occurred, if you do not continue.

I would ask you what role God forgetting righteousness, Blotting names out of His Book, plays in your view of Scripture. If it plays no role, I would encourage you to reconsider, since, without it, Scripture makes no sense.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't have a "systematic theology". I don't think that way. Every part of the Bible deserves to be understood according to the exact thing it says. I don't believe in having some framework of ideas into which I have to find a way to fit every passage.

I really challenge you to examine that passage, it's grammar, the specific thing it says. There is no imperative to continue. It's a conditional clause, not a command, contained in an indicative statement. It's an indicative statement - gives information - that is true of you if the condition is true of you. This tells us something about those who trust in God. If that trust is lifelone, this means you've become a partaker (permanent).

An extra piece?

It's just an "extra piece" you have left over after building your system that you don't seem to think much of.

You are really off base with this comment. Totally! I think the problem here is that I'm the guy that's hanging onto every word. But don't try to make this about me, I'm not interested in that. The Bible says it or it doesn't, that's what I'm about.

"become partakers", perfect tense, meaning, something done that remains done.

Can you really not live like that? Then check this out.

Much love!

I appreciate your gracious interaction, so I hope you'll forgive me for coming across in a less careful way, esp bc I don't like it when people avoid getting to the point by ad hominem.

 

[marks]

because your having partaken will be forgotten, will never have occurred, if you do not continue.

This is, however, flatly contradicted in the passage itself. It's not found there, and is prohibited in the use of the perfect tense. You cannot become a partaker (in the perfect tense meaning) if you then cease to be a partaker. The language doesn't work that way.

It's a simple conditional clause, "you've (perfect tense = forever become) become a partaker if your faith continues to the end. If it doesn't, it means you didn't. Not that you ceased, but that you never were. This is the plain and specific statement made here.

I would ask you what role God forgetting righteousness, Blotting names out of His Book, plays in your view of Scripture. If it plays no role, I would encourage you to reconsider, since, without it, Scripture makes no sense.

Those who sin, their names are blotted from God's book. Exodus 32, I think it is.

Then there are those whose names remain written from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13, also ch. 16 I think, using that perfect tense again.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

This is, however, flatly contradicted in the passage itself. It's not found there, and is prohibited in the use of the perfect tense. You cannot become a partaker (in the perfect tense meaning) if you then cease to be a partaker. The language doesn't work that way.

It's a simple conditional clause, "you've (perfect tense = forever become) become a partaker if your faith continues to the end. If it doesn't, it means you didn't. Not that you ceased, but that you never were. This is the plain and specific statement made here.


Those who sin, their names are blotted from God's book. Exodus 32, I think it is.

Then there are those whose names remain written from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13, also ch. 16 I think, using that perfect tense again.

Much love!

Again, I affirm your grammatical breakdown, but I affirm God forgets righteousness (faith is counted as righteousness), so their definitely having partaken in the past tense will never have occurred, will be forgotten, if they don't continue.

I understand it doesn't make sense to say if you don't continue it will never have occurred--that's because without acknowledging God forgets righteousness the Bible doesn't make sense.

 

[marks]

role God forgetting righteousness,

Are you referring here to Ezekiel 18?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Again, I affirm your grammatical breakdown, but I affirm God forgets righteousness (faith is counted as righteousness), so their definitely having partaken in the past tense will never have occurred, will be forgotten, if they don't continue.

I don't know what else to say then, because you agree with the grammar, but disagree with what it says.

You cannot "become a partaker" in the perfect tense way and then stop. The perfect tense doesn't "undo".

OK. Moving on.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Are you referring here to Ezekiel 18?

Much love!

Ez 3:20, God forgets righteousness. In the NT, faith is counted as righteousness.

 

[marks]

Ez 3:20, God forgets righteousness. In the NT, faith is counted as righteousness.

Ezekiel 3:17-21 KJV
17) Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
18) When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19) Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20) Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21) Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

This is fully in keeping with the covenant of Law God made with Israel.

Leviticus 18:1-5 KJV
1) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
3) After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4) Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
5) Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

Galatians 3:11-12 KJV
11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

In God's covenant with Israel,

Exodus 19:3-8 KJV
3) And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

God promised blessing for obedience. He gave many commandments, and declared that the one who does them will live, and if you stop, it won't matter that you had, only that you stopped. And if you were not, you would die, but if you started, you would live. That was the Law covenant God made with Jacob's children.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I don't know what else to say then, because you agree with the grammar, but disagree with what it says.

You cannot "become a partaker" in the perfect tense way and then stop. The perfect tense doesn't "undo".

OK. Moving on.

Much love!

Without the realization that God forgets righteousness, I understand why you'd say what you're saying. You need that fact to affirm what I affirm it says.

"If all you have is a hammer, everything look like a nail."

 

[GracePeace]

Ezekiel 3:17-21 KJV
17) Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
18) When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
19) Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
20) Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
21) Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

This is fully in keeping with the covenant of Law God made with Israel.

Leviticus 18:1-5 KJV
1) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
3) After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4) Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
5) Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

Galatians 3:11-12 KJV
11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

In God's covenant with Israel,

Exodus 19:3-8 KJV
3) And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4) Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7) And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8) And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

God promised blessing for obedience. He gave many commandments, and declared that the one who does them will live, and if you stop, it won't matter that you had, only that you stopped. And if you were not, you would die, but if you started, you would live. That was the Law covenant God made with Jacob's children.

Much love!

God forgetting righteousness is not going to change, because God doesn't change, and "these things were written for our instruction". Righteousness is still how we are blessed, only what righteousness is is different today. Faith is counted as righteousness. "God Is Our Righteousness" (Jer 23:6). Still, God blots names out. If the name isn't visible, it was never there.

 

[marks]

Without the realization that God forgets righteousness, I understand why you'd say what you're saying. You need that fact to affirm what I affirm it says.

"If all you have is a hammer, everything look like a nail."

That's still not right.

The wording says something very specific, but you don't agree that it makes the very specific statement I'm asserting.

It's not like, If I understand how God can forget righteousness, then I'd understand, what, that the words which say THIS mean THAT?

It's like you are still saying I'm interpretting the verse according to my views on the topic, while you are doing the same, only, your views on the topic are correct, so you are coming to the correct answer.

What I'm seeing is that I'm interpreting according to the wording - forget about what else I think - and then basing what I think on what the exact wording says specifically. I'm not seeing any ambiguity in the passage. Only that is says this certain thing. Your continued faith means you've become a partaker.

Much love!