Abiding In Christ Necessary for Eternal Life

[Raccoon1010]

Some acknowledge that it is possible for a believer to fail to remain in Christ, but they want to deny it is an issue on which eternal life hinges.

You are commanded to remain in Him to continue being supplied with His Spirit;
we only remain in Him by obeying His commands (1 Jn 3:23,24).

If we say we think we are going to be saved while disobeying, and not receiving the eternal life, that's not sound doctrine, is it?

1 John 2
28And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.

1 John 3
23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.
We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 5
21Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

So, what makes the little children not abide in Christ? Idolatry. Sin. There are two different forms of the idolatry--not remaining in faith in the Son (eg, as the Galatians, who went after "another Gospel", and "deserted Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ" (Gal 1:6)), and the other would be the "idolatry" of failing to love others (ie, by not walking in faith, whereby God's righteousness is revealed (Ro 1:5,16,17), leading to "condemnation" (Ro 14:23)).

This doesn't sound like proper doctrine. Correct doctrine shows that we are unworthy to be in God's presence and are unworthy of the Holy Spirit. The atonement of Christ allows the sinner to be in the presence of God. Sure we strive to become sin free, but that will not justify us. Only the atonement of Christ can save a person. Not anything they can do.

We are asked, which is probably a commandment, to repent. And works meet for repentance show that we are sorry for our sins and want to live more correct with God. But that will not save us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

2. Living water (john 4)

The woman at the well..

Jesus meets a woman at a well in Samaria

This story has many points to it

1. Jesus spoke to a woman which was not proper.
2. The woman was a sinner (she was an outcast, had to come at noon in the heat of the day to draw water)
3. She was the enemy of Israel, Israel would walk around this region so they do not risk contacting them.

In this, Jesus asked her for a drink, She questioned him. Jesus responded by saying if you knew the gift of God you would ask and he would give her living water. Then Jesus gets to the point. Whoever drinks this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water I will give them will NEVER thirst, but out of him will flow fountains of rivers of living water flowing to ETERNAL LIFE.

again, we see the same distinction between physical and spiritual

1. In john 3, we had Physical flesh, here we have Physical water. We drink, and we will thirst again (required to keep drinking)
2. In john 3 we had spiritual life, Here we have Spiritual water. Drink once and you will NEVER THIRST again, because this water will continue to flow. Granting the one who drinks eternal life..

Of note. In john 3. Jesus told the pharisee he was not GOOD enough

Here he told the adulteress who was married multiple times, who was considered unclean and Gods enemy, She was not BAD enough.

No matter who you are. You fit within this spectrum. No one is good enough to earn salvation. And no one is so evil they have been disqualified for salvation. No one qualifies.

Jesus answers this base question in two chapters. But he is not doin. On to John 5

 

[Eternally Grateful]

John 5. Hearing and believing

In John 5. Jesus only says a few words. But they are powerful

Jesus had just healed a man on the sabbath. And this outraged the religious Jews. So they sought to Kill him.

Jesus speaks loud and clear

whoever hears my words, and believes in him who sent me (the father) Has ETERNAL LIFE and WILL NOT be judged, but has passed from death to life

again, New birth born again

1. Hear the word
2. Believe in the father (Abraham believed…)
3. Do this and you will never perish but have eternal life (will live forever)\
4. To be clear. It also says you will NOT be judged.
5. And have passed from death (separation from God) to life (born again)

The next chapter is deep. So may take awhile for me to put together. Let’s continue together

 

[Raccoon1010]

I should add to post #81 this: The bible points out that we are justified in two ways, thru works and thru faith. But it is only because of the justification of Jesus that he allows his justification to cover that. So true justification is only because of Christ.

I think the point in all that scripture is that we should strive to be desirable to be saved. In our faith and works.

Not everyone can provide works, so faith is also shown in the bible to justify for those that have no works.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

John 6.

to give a backstory. Jesus had just fed the 5000. He departed and on the next day, people followed him. However, did they follow him to hear his words? Or to Get fed again (see the miracle)

Jesus starts of by answering this question

You seek me not because they saw signs, but because they were fed. The had labored to come all this way. And Jesus tells them not to labour for that food (which perishes), But for the food he could give them which endures to ETERNAL LIFE

Then they asked him , WHAT WORK MUST WE DO? Their question is clear. Jesus said labour (work) for food which endures.. so they asked, what work is that.

Jesus answer ; It is the work of God that we believe. This is a point we all must hear. He did not say we had to follow the sabbath, the law, or be baptized. He did not say we need to be part of a particular church, a religion or do good deeds. He did nto say we need to abide in him, He said ITS GODS WORK!

They then asked for a sign, Like Moses had when in the dessert with manna. Jesus quickly responds by again he goes like chapters 3 and 4 the physical and spiritual, saying Moses gave bread (by the way from God not Moses) but that bread perished (physical bread), again you had to eat. The bread he came to give was himself. Which he would give for the life of the world. How do we eat this bread?

Come to him, and you will NEVER hunger, Believe in me and you will NEVER THIRST

Then he gives facts again concerning this life.

1. All the father gives will come
2. All who come he will never lose
3. The will of the father is whoever believes will again Never die. But live forever. And have Jesus promise he will RAISE THEM (not have them delivered to him) on the last day.

so this does not go long I will continue on next post

 

[Eternally Grateful]

After this people start to murmur.. They start to show their lack of faith and belief,,

Jesus quickly responds by saying again, he is the bread which came from heaven, whoever believes in him again will never die but live forever (ETERNAL LIFE) and repeats again, Whoever eats physical bread will die. Whoever eats the bread he gives will again will LIVE FOREVER (ETERNAL LIFE). And the bread he came to give was his flesh, his life..

Jesus is going to weed out the true believers from the make believers here. he goes to speak about his flesh and blood. Sadly many want to turn this into the lords supper, Or Eucharistic miracle or whatever they call it. But that is not what Jesus is doing here. he is stating a fact. You must gnaw and chew on my flesh and drink my Blood. To gnaw and chew means we savour the food. We concentrate on what it is, and then we swallow it (take it in so it can be of value and sustain us

This is different than just tasting, or swallowing it whole. Where we do not get the benefits of all it has to offer..

Ths of course realy offends the make believers, And many walk away. To those who are left. He explains it to them. It is the spirit who gives life. The WORDS I SPEAK these are spirit and they are life.. He was telling them to GNAW and CHEW on the words he came to give them.. For in them you can have life..

Peter shows he understood. When he says you are the christ, the son of the living God. And we have come to KNOW you HAVE THE WORDS of ETERNAL LIFE.

He did not understand it yet, non of them did, and would not until After Christ died. But they had faith and would stick with him.

In review

1. Don’t seek a gospel that perishes (can be lost. Or it dies) , seek a gospel that endures to eternal life
2. You can’t work for it. It is Gods who did the work (the cross) and does the work t draw us to him and help us understand
3. We need to eat this bread, flesh blood that was sent from God. Gnaw and chew it. So we can grasp and understand fully what it is (satan wants to distort Gods truth, and lead us astray)
those who do We have this promise

1. We will never die
2. We will live forever
3. We will never hunger or thirst
4. We will never be lost
5. We will be raised on the last day vs being delivered for judgment

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So what did Jesus say must be done to gain eternal life?

john 3. Be born again. Look to the cross. Believe (trust) him, Do this and you will never die, but live forever

John 4, Ask, And he will give you living water, flowing to eternal life. You will never thirst again.

John 5. Hear the word and trust him, If you do this, You will pass from life to death (born again) and will again, never die and live forever (eternal life)

John 6. Don’t work for a gospel that will die, but for one which will endure forever. It can not be earned by works, but God must work in us to bring this to fruition. Eat the bread from heaven, as in John 5. Hear the words, Gnaw and chew on them, if you do. And have faith in God. You will never hunger, never thirst, Never die, Live forever. Have eternal life and will be raised on the last day

 

[Eternally Grateful]

All these things speak of Justification. We are dead in christ because of sin, the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is life

it shows that justification takes place at a moment of time, after we have eaten the word. And believed in him, When we look to the cross. We are saved.

Scripture makes it clear, we are justified by faith. Not by works. jesus shows this right here in these 5 events.

The issue is what next? Do we just sit idle. And live out lives? Paul makes it clear we do not. For it is by Grace we have been saved (the work of God) through faith, not of works lest anyone shoudl boast. For we are his WORKMANSHIP created in Christ Jesus for good works.

These good works are the “fruit” of our labors once we are saved. This is our goal. To produce fruit. How do we do this?

We have to be attached to the vine, to “Abide in him” God will do many things as we are sanctified to help us produce fruit

he will prune us

He will ”lift us up”

he will cut off the bad, and burn the bad in the fire.

One thing he will never do is remove our gift of Life. Because we did not earn it, we can not unearn it. It is ours forever, As the word said, He will never lose us, He also will never leave nor forsake us.

 

[GracePeace]

So what did Jesus say must be done to gain eternal life?

john 3. Be born again. Look to the cross. Believe (trust) him, Do this and you will never die, but live forever

John 4, Ask, And he will give you living water, flowing to eternal life. You will never thirst again.

John 5. Hear the word and trust him, If you do this, You will pass from life to death (born again) and will again, never die and live forever (eternal life)

John 6. Don’t work for a gospel that will die, but for one which will endure forever. It can not be earned by works, but God must work in us to bring this to fruition. Eat the bread from heaven, as in John 5. Hear the words, Gnaw and chew on them, if you do. And have faith in God. You will never hunger, never thirst, Never die, Live forever. Have eternal life and will be raised on the last day

Yup, when we believe, we're obeying one of the commands He gave for abiding in Him (the other is "love one another" by "walking in faith"--"faith works by love"), so we're supplied with the Spirit. You're only agreeing with me on that.

 

[GracePeace]

I think this is a great commentary on how we abide in Christ....sometimes imo....my flesh wants to take over...even when it does.....the Holy Spirit will NEVER leave or forsake us...he just lets me get on with it....until I see the errors of my way....which can only come through the Spirit......he opens my heart to see and hear.


Christians are to remain in Jesus like the branches remain attached to the vine. He gives us all that we need to sustain us in this life and for all eternity.
Being saved means we are “in Christ.” It is our status and we are now united in Christ by faith and all His riches have become our own. In Colossians 2:13, it says, “You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.” God has given us new life in Him.
When Jesus was crucified, we were also crucified with Him; we no longer live but it is Christ in us (Galatians 2:20). We joined with Him in His death as He took our sin upon Himself. Now we are risen with Him, and seated with Him in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). Being in Christ means we have a communion with Him that is rooted in His death and resurrection, and Jesus calls us to remain or “abide” in His love (John 15:9).
So what does abiding in Christ look like in the Christian life?

Fruitfulness​

Remaining or abiding in Jesus means that we will produce fruit. Not physical fruit like apples, pineapples and grapes, but spiritual fruit. Galatians 5:22-23 lists the fruit of the Spirit as “love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.” That is quite the variety of fruit that God works in us as we abide in Him. His Spirit remains with us and produces this fruit which we cannot produce in our own effort; we must remain in Him (John 15:4). As we spend time with Him, walking closely with Him by the Spirit, we will not gratify the desires of the flesh (Galatian 5:16). As we bear fruit, it is proof that we are disciples of Jesus and it glorifies Him (John 15:8).

Pruning​

Those who have tried their hand at gardening will know that pruning is when plants are cut off or cut back to encourage more growth. Jesus is the vine, we are the branches, and the Father is the vinedresser or the gardener. He is the one who cuts back the branches that do not produce any fruit. For those branches that do produce fruit, He prunes back further so that they will be even more fruitful (John 15:1-2).
This means that believers will experience painful times in their life. However, the Lord can use it to remove anything that is hindering our spiritual growth. It will result in greater flourishing for us as we walk with Him.

Well, the same guy who wrote that (John) gives explicit instructions on abiding--it's by obeying 1) believe in the Name of God's Son, and 2) love one another. We don't have to guess.

 

[GracePeace]

All these things speak of Justification. We are dead in christ because of sin, the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is life

it shows that justification takes place at a moment of time, after we have eaten the word. And believed in him, When we look to the cross. We are saved.

Scripture makes it clear, we are justified by faith. Not by works. jesus shows this right here in these 5 events.

The issue is what next? Do we just sit idle. And live out lives? Paul makes it clear we do not. For it is by Grace we have been saved (the work of God) through faith, not of works lest anyone shoudl boast. For we are his WORKMANSHIP created in Christ Jesus for good works.

These good works are the “fruit” of our labors once we are saved. This is our goal. To produce fruit. How do we do this?

We have to be attached to the vine, to “Abide in him” God will do many things as we are sanctified to help us produce fruit

he will prune us

He will ”lift us up”

he will cut off the bad, and burn the bad in the fire.

One thing he will never do is remove our gift of Life. Because we did not earn it, we can not unearn it. It is ours forever, As the word said, He will never lose us, He also will never leave nor forsake us.

I've already addressed justification.

We're justified by the righteousness of hearing with faith, as that reveals God's righteousness; we are also told that God will judge us on the last day, and only those who do good will be justified (Ro 2:6-16).

We're also told that a believer's justification is compromised when he sins--ie, he is "condemned" if he sins by not walking in faith, but doing what he doubts, because "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith" (Ro 1:5,16,17, 14:5,23)--so, I partly agree (I recognize justification is by grace through faith), and I partly disagree (I recognize other points of time in which men must be justified--and that walking by faith also is needed for justification, and not condemnation, as it says "Abraham was justified by works [of faith]").

 

[GracePeace]

This doesn't sound like proper doctrine. Correct doctrine shows that we are unworthy to be in God's presence and are unworthy of the Holy Spirit. The atonement of Christ allows the sinner to be in the presence of God. Sure we strive to become sin free, but that will not justify us. Only the atonement of Christ can save a person. Not anything they can do.

We are asked, which is probably a commandment, to repent. And works meet for repentance show that we are sorry for our sins and want to live more correct with God. But that will not save us.

You failed to address the Scriptural bases for what was stated. What you did was say, "look away from what he's saying--look over here at what I'm saying!" not address the soundness of what was stated.

 

[GracePeace]

After this people start to murmur.. They start to show their lack of faith and belief,,

Jesus quickly responds by saying again, he is the bread which came from heaven, whoever believes in him again will never die but live forever (ETERNAL LIFE) and repeats again, Whoever eats physical bread will die. Whoever eats the bread he gives will again will LIVE FOREVER (ETERNAL LIFE). And the bread he came to give was his flesh, his life..

Jesus is going to weed out the true believers from the make believers here. he goes to speak about his flesh and blood. Sadly many want to turn this into the lords supper, Or Eucharistic miracle or whatever they call it. But that is not what Jesus is doing here. he is stating a fact. You must gnaw and chew on my flesh and drink my Blood. To gnaw and chew means we savour the food. We concentrate on what it is, and then we swallow it (take it in so it can be of value and sustain us

This is different than just tasting, or swallowing it whole. Where we do not get the benefits of all it has to offer..

Ths of course realy offends the make believers, And many walk away. To those who are left. He explains it to them. It is the spirit who gives life. The WORDS I SPEAK these are spirit and they are life.. He was telling them to GNAW and CHEW on the words he came to give them.. For in them you can have life..

Peter shows he understood. When he says you are the christ, the son of the living God. And we have come to KNOW you HAVE THE WORDS of ETERNAL LIFE.

He did not understand it yet, non of them did, and would not until After Christ died. But they had faith and would stick with him.

In review

1. Don’t seek a gospel that perishes (can be lost. Or it dies) , seek a gospel that endures to eternal life
2. You can’t work for it. It is Gods who did the work (the cross) and does the work t draw us to him and help us understand
3. We need to eat this bread, flesh blood that was sent from God. Gnaw and chew it. So we can grasp and understand fully what it is (satan wants to distort Gods truth, and lead us astray)
those who do We have this promise

1. We will never die
2. We will live forever
3. We will never hunger or thirst
4. We will never be lost
5. We will be raised on the last day vs being delivered for judgment

As I've stated before, I've never objected to the "eternality" of the life, I've only addressed man's "eligibility" for receiving the life.
"God has given us eternal life, and the life is in His Son" (1 Jn 5:11).
So, to partake of the life, we must "abide in Him" where the "eternal life" is, then we are given the Spirit (1 Jn 3:23,24), but some do not "abide" (1 Jn 2:28). Jesus says these are cut off and thrown in the fire (Jn 15).
1 Jn 2:28 also mentions that if the little children don't abide (and this is bc of idolatry (1 Jn 5:21)), they will be "ashamed" at His appearance--this is just as Revelation 16:15 "shame of their nakedness", and we know some of the "little children" had already found themselves in that position of spiritual nakedness (Laodiceans in Rv 3)).

THIS is the topic ("eligibility" for receiving "eternal life", not the "eternality" of the "eternal life"), so you're not objecting to, or even addressing, what I've stated.

 

[GracePeace]

This thread Is for discussion and debate so please don’t just add posts with loads of scripture or presume certain things about each other ( especially in prayer ). Using the phrases ‘ they ‘ ‘ them ‘ is actually sitting in judgement of other members taking part in the discussion. Stick to the subject being discussed and be civil to one another.

Thank you. It's a reasonable request.

I really want to move the discussion forward; the best way is for people to quote what I've stated, and address it.
If they want to disagree, show from immediate context why I've misunderstood, and only afterward furnish additional Scriptural evidence, from outside contexts, to further substantiate their objection.

This is addressing what I've said head-on.
This is moving the discussion forward.

"Discuss in such a manner as will move the discussion forward in an orderly fashion" is a reasonable request. Failing to address what I've stated (this failure can be achieved in many different ways) does not move the discussion forward.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Once again, what do we do after we recieve eternal life

The issue is what next? Do we just sit idle. And live out lives? Paul makes it clear we do not. For it is by Grace we have been saved (the work of God) through faith, not of works lest anyone shoudl boast. For we are his WORKMANSHIP created in Christ Jesus for good works.

These good works are the “fruit” of our labors once we are saved. This is our goal. To produce fruit. How do we do this?

We have to be attached to the vine, to “Abide in him” God will do many things as we are sanctified to help us produce fruit

he will prune us

He will ”lift us up”

he will cut off the bad, and burn the bad in the fire.

One thing he will never do is remove our gift of Life. Because we did not earn it, we can not unearn it. It is ours forever, As the word said, He will never lose us, He also will never leave nor forsake us.

 

[Ritajanice]

Once again, what do we do after we recieve eternal life

The issue is what next? Do we just sit idle. And live out lives? Paul makes it clear we do not. For it is by Grace we have been saved (the work of God) through faith, not of works lest anyone shoudl boast. For we are his WORKMANSHIP created in Christ Jesus for good works.

These good works are the “fruit” of our labors once we are saved. This is our goal. To produce fruit. How do we do this?

We have to be attached to the vine, to “Abide in him” God will do many things as we are sanctified to help us produce fruit

he will prune us

He will ”lift us up”

he will cut off the bad, and burn the bad in the fire.

One thing he will never do is remove our gift of Life. Because we did not earn it, we can not unearn it. It is ours forever, As the word said, He will never lose us, He also will never leave nor forsake us.

One 100% Amen!!!....

 

[GracePeace]

Come to him, and you will NEVER hunger, Believe in me and you will NEVER THIRST

Then he gives facts again concerning this life.

1. All the father gives will come
2. All who come he will never lose
3. The will of the father is whoever believes will again Never die. But live forever. And have Jesus promise he will RAISE THEM (not have them delivered to him) on the last day.

so this does not go long I will continue on next post

You gotta double check the Greek: it doesn't say "whoever comes to Me", as if it refers to a single instance of it, but whoever IS COMING TO ME, which bespeaks the "abiding" requisite.

Those who belong to the Father, whom He sends to Jesus, are those who are "of the truth" (Jn 18). Which "truth"? The Samaritan woman "spoke truly" when she admitted her sin (Jn 4), as 1 Jn 1 says "if we say we have no sin we lie and God's Word does not abide in us", whereas the Jews "did not have God's Word abiding in them" (Jn 5), denying that they were slaves of sin (Jn 8).
That said, we can also know that hearts can "become hardened" by the deceitfulness of sin (Heb 3), so we know that the "soil conditions"/"heart conditions" can change--can be soft and receptive to truth at one point, and become hardened and receptive to deception at another--and are not fixed.

This means that there is no "fixed" group that belongs to the Father, but it fluctuates--eg, the same Jews who crucified Jesus later repented when Peter preached and were saved. They murdered an innocent man, satan was their father, yet they repented and were saved.

 

[MatthewG]

You gotta double check the Greek: it doesn't say "whoever comes to Me", as if it refers to a single instance of it, but whoever IS COMING TO ME, which bespeaks the "abiding" requisite.

Those who belong to the Father, whom He sends to Jesus, are those who are ¥of the truth" (Jn 18). Which truth? The Samaritan woman "spoke truly" when she admitted her sin (Jn 4), as 1 Jn 1 says "if we say we have no sin we lie and God's Word does not abide in us", but we also know that hearts can become hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Heb 3), so we know that the "soil conditions" change and are not fixed.

This means that there is no "fixed" group that belongs to the Father, but it fluctuates--eg, the same Jews who crucified Jesus later repented when Peter preached and were saved. They murdered an innocent man, satan was their father, yet they repented and were saved.

There was those who also did not repent of having murdered Yeshua ,and they were killed. Why? Because of their constant desire to worship Idols, and they hated the Son of God, and they were jealous, envious, coveting what He had and they tried to take it for themselves.

Matthew 21:33-46​

​

Parable of the Evil Farmers​

33 “Now listen to another story. A certain landowner planted a vineyard, built a wall around it, dug a pit for pressing out the grape juice, and built a lookout tower. Then he leased the vineyard to tenant farmers and moved to another country. 34 At the time of the grape harvest, he sent his servants to collect his share of the crop. 35 But the farmers grabbed his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 So the landowner sent a larger group of his servants to collect for him, but the results were the same.
37 “Finally, the owner sent his son, thinking, ‘Surely they will respect my son.’
38 “But when the tenant farmers saw his son coming, they said to one another, ‘Here comes the heir to this estate. Come on, let’s kill him and get the estate for ourselves!’ 39 So they grabbed him, dragged him out of the vineyard, and murdered him.
40 “When the owner of the vineyard returns,” Jesus asked, “what do you think he will do to those farmers?”
41 The religious leaders replied, “He will put the wicked men to a horrible death and lease the vineyard to others who will give him his share of the crop after each harvest.”
42 Then Jesus asked them, “Didn’t you ever read this in the Scriptures?
‘The stone that the builders rejected
has now become the cornerstone.
This is the Lord’s doing,
and it is wonderful to see.’[a]
43 I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that will produce the proper fruit. 44 Anyone who stumbles over that stone will be broken to pieces, and it will crush anyone it falls on.[b]”
45 When the leading priests and Pharisees heard this parable, they realized he was telling the story against them—they were the wicked farmers. 46 They wanted to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowds, who considered Jesus to be a prophet.
Read full chapter

Footnotes​

1. 21:42 Ps 118:22-23.
2. 21:44 This verse is not included in some early manuscripts. Compare Luke 20:18.

 

[GracePeace]

One thing he will never do is remove our gift of Life. Because we did not earn it, we can not unearn it. It is ours forever,

Adam didn't earn anything, but lost it--and he lost it through idolatry, the same thing that draws "little children" from abiding in Christ today (1 Jn 2:28, 5:21).

This idea that "because something is a gift, you can't lose it" has neither logical nor Scriptural foundations. People lose gifts all of the time.

Also, again, only those who abide in Him by obeying Him, by 1) believing in the Name of God's Son and 2) loving one another, are supplied with the Spirit (1xJn 3:23,24), since "the eternal life is in His Son (1 Jn 5:11).

 

[GracePeace]

There was those who also did not repent of having murdered Yeshua ,and they were killed. Why? Because of their constant desire to worship Idols, and they hated the Son of God, and they were jealous, envious, coveting what He had and they tried to take it for themselves

I agree. Are you agreeing or disagreeing?