The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right, and again, these people have heard the truth explained and thus have also learned of God's Word, and experienced the benefits therein and of the presence of the Spirit and His work around them. Certainly, one can fall away from that, and of his/her own free will and accord.

He was not talking about people who only heard and learned about the truth of God's Word. He was talking about people who had repented, which is why he said if they fell away it was impossible to renew them to repentance again. That's not something he would say about people who had not repented in the first place.

God's purpose of election unto salvation for any individual, if purposed for that individual ~ like any other purpose of His ~ cannot be thwarted.

That's not taught anywhere in scripture.

God's gifts and calling are ~ his election unto salvation for the individual is ~ irrevocable, for us certainly, but even for God Himself, actually.

Yes, that's true, but you assume that election is unconditional. It's not. It's conditional upon someone's responsibility to repent and believe until the end of their lives.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

If election unto salvation was unconditional, then why is the word "if" in this verse?

Right, renewal of mind can happen multiple times. Hopefully, you change yours here... :)

Hopefully, he doesn't.

But the new birth ~ the taking out of the heart of stone and the giving of the heart of flesh, Him putting His Spirit within us and thus being our God, as God says through Ezekiel (36:26-27) ~ is very different in that it is effected by God and cannot and will not be undone. No purpose of His can be thwarted (Job 42:2), and He Who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the Day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

You should not read a verse like Philippians 1:6 without keeping verses like Hebrews 3:14 in mind. Interpreting scripture in isolation rather than interpreting it in such a way that agrees with all scripture, is how false teaching occurs.

Far be it from me to somehow compare myself to Jesus, but this is somewhat like Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus in John 3. I mean, Nicodemus couldn't understand how a person could be born a second time, as you will agree, I'm sure. But it seems like what you are unable to accept, at present, anyway, is that a person cannot be unborn.

Not physically, but we're not talking about physical birth here, are we.

And on the subject of being born again of the Spirit, cannot afterwards snuff out, or kill... perish the thought... the Spirit God has put within us.

Where does scripture teach that we only have free will up until the moment we are born again?

For any individual to whom it is appointed, God's renewal ~ the new birth ~ only happens once, and it does not fail initially nor in perpetuity. Both Paul and Peter are very clear on this:

• "In (Christ) we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of (God) Who works all things according to the counsel of (God's) will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory" (Paul, Ephesians 1:11-14).

Again, do you interpret this in light of verses like Hebrews 3:12-14 and Hebrews 6:12-14? That seal is guaranteed "if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". We are not predestined to put our faith and confidence in Christ and hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". We are predestined to obtain eternal life "if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end".

• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).

You continue to ignore the responsibility of man in this. Yes, it is by God's power, but we must submit to Him and His power. We have to continue acknowledging that we can't save ourselves and keep our faith and trust in Him alone. That is our responsibility. We must continue being steadfast in our faith right up until the end of our lives because God requires that of us. He's looking for people who are committed until the end. He doesn't want people who will fall away because of persecution or other reasons.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Does this say "be thou faithful one time and I will give thee a crown of life"? No, it says "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The whole things talks about ISRAEL.

Not one gentile is included in that message

Can you please learn how to read? I didn't say anything about Gentiles. I was talking about how Paul differentiated between the Israelites of his time and put them into two groups. One group of Israelites was the remnant of those who were saved "according to the election of grace" and the other group were unbelieving Israelites who he referred to as "the rest" who "were blinded".

Can you see here that I'm not saying anything about Gentiles?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Can you please learn how to read? I didn't say anything about Gentiles. I was talking about how Paul differentiated between the Israelites of his time and put them into two groups. One group of Israelites was the remnant of those who were saved "according to the election of grace" and the other group were unbelieving Israelites who he referred to as "the rest" who "were blinded".

Can you see here that I'm not saying anything about Gentiles?

Your still wrong

The NATION of Israel are our enemy concerning the gospel There is a small remnant of believers, but the nation is still praying to a temple wall! which is not even a temple wall!!

They are to be beloved because of the election.

God chose them and elected them to a service to represent him here on earth!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually, I do agree with what you say here, SI. But, as you know ~ or should ~ the heart is deceitful above all things (Jeremiah 17:9).

Yet, all people are expected to know God, glorify Him and be thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-20). So, what do you make of that in light of your understanding of Jeremiah 17:9? I think you may be reading too much into that verse because if you think it means that people can't help but be like the people Paul describes in Romans 1:18-32 then why is it that they have no excuse for not being thankful to God and not glorifying Him as God?

So many are so hung up on "free will." No one disagrees that our wills are our own and thus free.

Calvinists do when it comes to salvation.

But the matter, as far as God's salvation goes, is the heart, our inner being. Our wills are of the mind; the mind follows the heart. The mind always ~ eventually, if not immediately ~ follows the heart.

Yes...and....?

It means, that, once God has changed our hearts ~ taken out our heart of stone, given us a heart of flesh, and has caused (and by His Spirit causes, on an ongoing basis) us to walk in His statutes and obey His rules, we will not leave Him; our desire will never be to leave Him, because He, by His Spirit's ongoing work in us, ensures that is the case.

Why was this said to saved people then:

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus......12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Okay, well, I thought otherwise, but that apparently seems to be the case with you, not me. We'll agree to disagree.

I'm certainly fine with agreeing to disagree, but it's surprising that you would want to do that so soon after we started discussing this. You seem willing to talk more about this with covenantee than with me for some reason.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your still wrong

The NATION of Israel are our enemy concerning the gospel There is a small remnant of believers, but the nation is still praying to a temple wall! which is not even a temple wall!!

They are to be beloved because of the election.

God chose them and elected them to a service to represent him here on earth!

You still can't read. I was referring specifically to the Israelites of Paul's day. Are you purposely trying to change the subject or am I right that you can't read? Can you tell me how you interpret this passage:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Who were the "remnant according to the election of grace" at that time? Do you believe that they are the ones Paul called "the election" who "hath obtained" "that which he seeketh for"?

Who were "the rest" who "were blinded"?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

By orthodox I mean conforming to established doctrine as held in the history of the church. By a preterist who is orthodox, I refer to one who believes Matt. 24:1-35 is a prediction of 70 AD and the end of the Jewish religion, and that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD, and in history these were considered within orthodox Christianity. Revelation chapter 20 refers to the general resurrection in our future. I am an Orthodox Preterist, and I believe THE LAST DAY, THE DAY OF JUDGMENT AND RESURRECTION IS IN OUR FUTURE. I am comfortable fellowshipping with those within orthodoxy who hold to historic pre-mil, a-mil and post-mil views, but NOT dispensationalism. I can fellowship with those who view Revelation as preterist, historist or futurist, but NOT the dispensational futurist which is not orthodox Christianity.

By heretical I mean unorthodox, a religious opinion that is a departure from and contrary to historic Christian doctrine as found among the writers of the church in history. I can show the Orthodox Preterist view in the church of the past. Dispensationalism cannot show their scheme prior to 1830 or so, and it's mainly found after the 1920s and the fundamentalist movement with its Scofield Bible.

Adam Clarke (1760-1832) Introduction to Revelation:
"Wetstein contends (and he is supported by very great men among the ancients and moderns) that "the book of the Revelation was written before the Jewish war, and the civil wars in Italy; that the important events which took place at that time, the greatest that ever happened since the foundation of the world, were worth enough of the Divine notice, as the affairs of his Church were so intimately connected with them; that his method of exposition proves the whole book to be a well-connected, certain series of events; but the common method of interpretation, founded on the hypothesis that the book was written after the destruction of Jerusalem, is utterly destitute of certainty, and leaves every commentator to the luxuriance of his own fancy, as is sufficiently evident from what has been done already on this book..."

Chapters Available - Revelation - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Choose from the available chapters in the 'Revelation' of the 'Clarke's Commentary' commentary FREELY provided by StudyLight.org to help as you prepare sermons, Bible studies, Sunday School lessons or personal devotions.

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Joseph Benson (1749-1821) on Matt. 24:34:
"For he adds, This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled, Hereby evidently showing that he had been speaking all this while only of the calamities coming on the Jews, and the destruction of Jerusalem. “It is to me a wonder,” says Bishop Newton, “how any man can refer part of the foregoing discourse to the destruction of Jerusalem, and part to the end of the world, or any other distant event, when it is said so positively here in the conclusion, All these things shall be fulfilled in this generation."

Matthew 24 - Benson's Commentary of the Old and New Testaments - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Matthew 24, Benson's Commentary of the Old and New Testaments, Benson's Commentary enriches Christian understanding through meticulous historical analysis, providing profound insights into Scripture.

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By the above it is clear that the Orthodox Preterist understanding of Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation was clearly within the bounds of orthodoxy. The book of Revelation has historical been understood as preterist, historicist or futurist. All have been within orthodoxy. In the history of the church, historic premillennial, amillennial and postmillennial understanding have been considered within the bounds of orthodoxy. What IS NOT found before the mid-19th century is the modern heresy of dispensationalism. What is the difference between orthodox premillennialism and heretical dispensationalist premillennialism? The dispensational heresies are as follows:

1. Separating the church and Israel as two different people of God. For one thing, "church" is an ecclesiastical word not found in the Hebrew or Greek of the Bible. In both the OT and NT, God's people are referred to as the assembly of God or the congregation of God. Some translations prior to the KJV do not contain the word "church". You see this explained in the "Translators to the Readers" foreward found in the original KJV.

2. Introducing sacrifices into the supposed 1000-year reign of Christ(Eze 43:18-19), but Jesus is there in their midst, it can't be explained away as a memorial! That is blasphemy when compared to "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, 'he sat down at the right hand of God,'” (Heb 10:12 NRSV)

3. The historic premillennialist believed in two resurrections, one before and one after the millennium. Dispensationalists come up with at least three, one coming at the end of their supposed 7-year tribulation for those saved during those 7 years.

4. The dispensationalist misuse the term "rapture" with a completely different meaning than historically in the church. The rapture as in the "left behind" farce is totally foreign to the Bible. Two resurrections 7 years apart can hardly be both included as a "first resurrection", as claimed by dispensationalists. When you read men of God out of the past refer to the resurrection on "the last day", they refer to that as a "rapture", but that is not what dispensationalist think of as the rapture.

5. Dispensationalism perverts the KJV translation of a dispensation into something foreign to the Bible. The Greek the KJV translates as dispensation is οἰκονομία oikonomia, which means "administration" and the word actually occurs 7 times in the KJV NT and four are in Paul where the KJV translates as dispensation: 1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10; 3:2; Col 1:25. There is NO justification to invent 7 dispensations as if found in the Bible. There is the dispensation of the gospel and the prior dispensation of law. The "dispensation of law" would be implied by the contrast between law and gospel.

6. Dispensationalists deny that the body of Christ, the New Covenant assembly of God is the fulfillment of and continuation of Old Covenant Israel, as indicated in:

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16 REB)

Who is Israel today? Those who are the "new creation" as in "For anyone united to Christ, there is a new creation: the old order has gone; a new order has already begun." (2Cor 5:17 REB) We who are born from above, New Covenant believers in Jesus Christ, make up the Israel of today.

The Orthodox church, doesn't have clear formulations of Eschatology. Christ will come in His glory and will judge the ungodly, we will be resurrected but the nature of our new spiritual body is still blurry and He will create a new heaven and earth. But really there is not much more detail and certainty
than two phrases in the Nicene Creed: “He is coming in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end,” and “I await the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.”

Eastern Orthodoxy has labored through problems and continues to labor as questions remain unanswered but these areas are open for discussion. In other words essential doctrines in Christianity are trusted and have become foundational; BUT the jury is not out on the non-essential doctrines, especially in Eschatology.
In the West, we have come up with a variety of solutions but nothing is really set on stone. There are unsolved mysteries, various views ... blurry and uncertain, and in the process of forming. Why? Because the Holy Spirit sealed up this information until the last generation, when He would reveal it, unravel it in front of our eyes. So it is not heretical to be uncertain and have blurry vision.

PETERISM IS NOT PART OF ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY. Not in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th centuries. No, not until the 17th century did it become popular.

"Historically, preterists and non-preterists have generally agreed that the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar (1554–1613) wrote the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi, published during the Counter-Reformation." Encyclopedia Britannica
It was used as a Catholic defense against the Protestants Historicists and Catholics have adopted it.
Hugo Grotis, a 17th century Protestant agreed with it and promoted it in his books.
Then Henry Hammond was influenced by this view and doubled down on it in his expository. But he was the only notable adherent to this view at the time. Protestants rejected the Preterist view on the Book of Revelation for at least 100 years.

In 1730 the Protestant and Arian, Frenchman Firmin Abauzit wrote the first full preterist exposition, "Essai sur l'Apocalypse".

The earliest American full-preterist work, The Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ: A Past Event, was written in 1845 by Robert Townley. >>> Townley later recanted this view.
______
Next up, the Book ofnRevelation was written about 95 AD ...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You still can't read. I was referring specifically to the Israelites of Paul's day. Are you purposely trying to change the subject or am I right that you can't read? Can you tell me how you interpret this passage:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Who were the "remnant according to the election of grace" at that time? Do you believe that they are the ones Paul called "the election" who "hath obtained" "that which he seeketh for"?

Who were "the rest" who "were blinded"?

ISRAEL WAS ELECTED IN ABRAHAMS TIME and were given the promises

The SAVED of Israel is always throughout every age according to grace..

There are two elections

the election of Grace which is in every generation of man since Adam and Eve those who are saved be it jew or gentile

The election of a nation of people who god gave a plot of land two.

Some of the children of Israel experienced both elections.

Some, being the enemy of the gospel. Will not even experience either.

but it does not matter

You as a gentile (if you are) are to not boast. Because ALL ISREAL will be saved. at that time there will be no remnant needed, becayse they ALL will call on the name of the Lord.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You still can't read. I was referring specifically to the Israelites of Paul's day. Are you purposely trying to change the subject or am I right that you can't read? Can you tell me how you interpret this passage:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Who were the "remnant according to the election of grace" at that time? Do you believe that they are the ones Paul called "the election" who "hath obtained" "that which he seeketh for"?

Who were "the rest" who "were blinded"?

This is what Jesus said about if Israel if he had to scatter them and destroy their citie (like he did in AD 70)

44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the Lord their God.
45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:

I am the Lord.’ ”

God is telling us to Love them like he loves them even while they are our /and his enemy!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is what Jesus said about if Israel if he had to scatter them and destroy their citie (like he did in AD 70)

44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the Lord their God.
45 But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:

I am the Lord.’ ”

God is telling us to Love them like he loves them even while they are our /and his enemy!

I didn't say otherwise. God wants us to love everyone. Jesus commands us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:27,35).

 

[PinSeeker]

One does not fall away from what one has only heard. One falls away from what one has experienced.

Both, actually. The operative word, I guess, would be 'accepted.' A person can accept anything heard or experienced, although for sure, he/she is much more likely to accept what he/she has experienced. But with regard to salvific belief, that can only follow the regenerate heart, which is the work of God by His Spirit, according to His will and to His purpose of Election.

As I have said, the mind and belief always ~ always ~ follows the heart. So with regard to salvation, one is either a slave to unrighteousness, or a slave to righteousness. There is no in-between. And if one becomes a slave of righteousness and is therefore in Christ, there is... no retreat... :) ...no falling away. From Romans 8, those whom God predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. So, in all these things ~ tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword ~ we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us., and as such, neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation ~ even we ourselves ~ will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Paul does not contradict this in Hebrews 6, or anywhere else.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Both, actually. The operative word, I guess, would be 'accepted.' A person can accept anything heard or experienced, although for sure, he/she is much more likely to accept what he/she has experienced. But with regard to salvific belief, that can only follow the regenerate heart, which is the work of God by His Spirit, according to His will and to His purpose of Election.

As I have said, the mind and belief always ~ always ~ follows the heart. So with regard to salvation, one is either a slave to unrighteousness, or a slave to righteousness. There is no in-between. And if one becomes a slave of righteousness and is therefore in Christ, there is... no retreat... :) ...no falling away. From Romans 8, those whom God predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. So, in all these things ~ tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword ~ we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us., and as such, neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation ~ even we ourselves ~ will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Paul does not contradict this in Hebrews 6, or anywhere else.

Please show me where Paul said that "even we ourselves" can't separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

How does Paul not contradict that in Hebrews 6:4-6 when he explicitly indicated there that saved people (people who have repented and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit) can fall away?

 

[PinSeeker]

He was not talking about people who only heard and learned about the truth of God's Word.

He was. We disagree.

He was talking about people who had repented, which is why he said if they fell away it was impossible to renew them to repentance again. That's not something he would say about people who had not repented in the first place.

Right, but true repentance is of the Spirit, Spiritual Israelite. People can say anything, and even repent of their sins, and be sincere in doing that. But what we pray for, even continually, is a deep and lasting repentance granted us by the Holy Spirit's work in us. In a real sense, we have to repent even of our repentance. That's how bad our sinful nature, which we still have, even if born again and in Christ, is. What you're doing ~ and I know you don't mean to be, but it is what it is ~ is, in the words of that great hymn, Stricken, Smitten, and Afflicted, regarding sin but lightly... supposing its evil not so great.

That's not taught anywhere in scripture.

Well, okay, it is; we disagree.

Yes, that's true, but you assume that election is unconditional. It's not. It's conditional upon someone's responsibility to repent and believe until the end of their lives.

Hmmm, well, there are many places in Scripture where we could look, but let's look at a conversation Jesus has in John 10:22-30 with a group of Jews at the Feast of Dedication. Notice how he answers them:

"It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.'"​

Two points here:

• Jesus says they do not believe BECAUSE they are not among His sheep. He does not say they are not among His sheep because they don't believe, but the other way around... they do not believe BECAUSE they are not among His sheep, those Whom the Father has given them.
• Jesus also says that no one ~ which includes the sheep themselves ~ will be able to snatch them out of His or the Father's hand.

Salvation cannot be lost. Once one is saved by the Father ~ once He has mercy/compassion on the person ~ it cannot be undone, and there is no falling away. Only those who were never saved in the first place, who never were on the receiving end of God's mercy/compassion, will fall away, and that's only if he or she was among the people of God and sharing in the fellowship of the saints and even partaking of ~ experiencing ~ the presence of the Spirit and His work around him or her.

So yes, God's election, with regard to us, is absolutely unconditional. Paul is abundantly clear in Romans 9 that God's purpose of election is only conditional on God, and whether He has mercy/compassion or not. As with Jacob and Esau:

"...though (Jacob and Esau) were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls..." (Romans 9:11)

So it is with all of us:

"...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:14-18).

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

If election unto salvation was unconditional, then why is the word "if" in this verse?

As I said before, God keeps us in His power. So yes, humanly speaking it is dependent on us holding the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, but in the greater context, it is God enabling us, in his mercy and compassion, to hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end. The latter is the first 'if.' We can still state the second 'if,' but our 'if' depends on His 'if.' :)

Not physically, but we're not talking about physical birth here, are we.

LOL! That's the greater point, SI. There is no second spiritual birth necessary, much less possible. And our birth, regardless whether we specify the physical or the spiritual, is not something we ask for. :) To ask for something, you actually have to be alive... :) And before you object to that, remember Genesis 2:17, where God told Adam that if he ate the fruit of the forbidden tree, he would surely die in that very day, and die ~ spiritually ~ he did. And this is the state that we are all physically born into... we are spiritually dead.

Where does scripture teach that we only have free will up until the moment we are born again?

Ah, free will. That's where it always goes. Which I knew is what was driving this whole conversation. Free will has nothing to do with it, Spiritual Israelite. You have to be made spiritually alive so that you will then use your free will to repent and believe. And if that happens, you will not fail to do so.

That seal is guaranteed "if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end".

See above. You're unwittingly conflating two different things here. The first 'if' is God's, the second 'if,' ours, is in the context of ~ dependent on ~ that first 'if.' See above.

We are not predestined to put our faith and confidence in Christ and hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end". We are predestined to obtain eternal life "if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end".

Actually, we are predestined to be conformed to Christ. God's predestination is not dependent on us for anything.

You continue to ignore the responsibility of man in this.

Absolutely not.

Yes, it is by God's power, but we must submit to Him and His power.

But, given that God does exercise His power on us, we will ~ freely and willingly ~ submit to Him and His power.

We have to continue acknowledging that we can't save ourselves and keep our faith and trust in Him alone.

But yet that's what you're inadvertently arguing.

That is our responsibility.

Absolutely it is. But... remember what Paul says to the Philippians? He says, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Do you not see that, yes, we do the willing and working for His good pleasure, but it is because God is at work in us. So yes, we can feel free, then, to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Calvinists do when it comes to salvation.

No, true Calvinists, those who really do believe as Calvin did, absolutely do not disagree that our wills are our own and thus free.

I'm certainly fine with agreeing to disagree, but it's surprising that you would want to do that so soon after we started discussing this.

LOL! I'm just acknowledging that you and I will probably never agree on this, SI. :)

You seem willing to talk more about this with covenantee than with me for some reason.

Nah, you've just been talking to Eternally Grateful, and then I think commented on something he said in his conversation with me. No, I'm willing to talk to anybody... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Please show me where Paul said that "even we ourselves" can't separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

LOL! Well, he did say, "nor anything else in all creation," did he not? And I'm... assuming you're somewhere in creation... :) I mean... I am... :)

How does Paul not contradict that in Hebrews 6:4-6 when he explicitly indicated there that saved people (people who have repented and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit) can fall away?

That's exactly the problem, SI, that you're equating 'saved' and 'repented.' I understand; you will not allow for someone repenting without having been saved, but one can express repentance, and even believe it, without having been truly saved by God. Therefore, that repentance would be ineffectual and false. Paul writes:

“Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?” (Romans 2:4)​

Paul’s point is a simple one, especially considering that he was more than likely addressing his Jewish recipients in chapter 2; the Jews who trusted Jesus as the Messiah should have known that it is God who leads sinners to repentance (Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25). Repentance is a gift. It is an act that the Holy Spirit works in us resulting in an act that flows out of us. Although it is our act, it does not originate from within us. This is true repentance.

Again I would point out Philippians 2:12-13:

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."​

Grace and peace to you!

 

[covenantee]

Both, actually. The operative word, I guess, would be 'accepted.' A person can accept anything heard or experienced, although for sure, he/she is much more likely to accept what he/she has experienced. But with regard to salvific belief, that can only follow the regenerate heart, which is the work of God by His Spirit, according to His will and to His purpose of Election.

As I have said, the mind and belief always ~ always ~ follows the heart. So with regard to salvation, one is either a slave to unrighteousness, or a slave to righteousness. There is no in-between. And if one becomes a slave of righteousness and is therefore in Christ, there is... no retreat... :) ...no falling away. From Romans 8, those whom God predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. So, in all these things ~ tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword ~ we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us., and as such, neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation ~ even we ourselves ~ will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Paul does not contradict this in Hebrews 6, or anywhere else.

Grace and peace to you.

I find the translation and explanation of the Greek to be fully conclusive. Only a true believer has a "close position" and is a "close follower" and is "close beside" Christ. No unbeliever experiences such closeness.

Here it is again:

3895 /parapíptō ("fallen from a close position") refers to a close-follower of Christ who becomes a defector. It suggests this person (at least at one time) was a believer (note the para). 3895 (parapíptō) is only used in Heb 6:6.

 

[PinSeeker]

I find the translation and explanation of the Greek to be fully conclusive.

Me, too. :)

Only a true believer has a "close position" and is a "close follower" and is "close beside" Christ. No unbeliever experiences such closeness.

I agree. But I'm not contradicting (or retracting) anything I've said. It is very possible, Covenantee, for someone to think that of themselves in error, even believing it to be a matter of the heart. Again, as Jeremiah says, "The heart is deceitful above all things; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

Me, too. :)


I agree. But I'm not contradicting (or retracting) anything I've said. It is very possible, Covenantee, for someone to think that of themselves in error, even believing it to be a matter of the heart. Again, as Jeremiah says, "The heart is deceitful above all things; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

Grace and peace to you.

Yes, there undoubtedly can be and are instances of self-deception; but nothing in Hebrews 6:4-6, or other passages, countenances that possibility.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, there undoubtedly can be and are instances of self-deception; but nothing in Hebrews 6:4-6, or other passages, countenances that possibility.

In your opinion, yes, I get that, loud and clear. Others will hold the same opinion. I disagree. Maybe "self-deception" is not the right term to use there in all cases. Upon self-reflection, people change their minds, right? So, in that case, they come to realize somehow and at some point they don't believe what they thought they once believed. And they would probably happily admit that.

But ~ and it's fine with me if you want to call this my opinion... as if you need me to allow you to do that <chuckles>... that's very fair ~ I say that passage is very much along the same lines as what John says in 1 John 2, that "many antichrists..." ~ and by "antichrists," he's talking about people who "love the world, and the love of the Father is not in them," which he has just said in verse 15 ~ presumably they once thought they believed along the same lines as the Christians they associated with but have since realized/determined that they do not ~ "...have come, and they went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

And concerning that Hebrews passage, Covenantee, do you think it to be impossible for God to restore someone to repentance? Wouldn't that seem to say that God is lacking in power to some degree? Because... nothing ~ nothing ~ is impossible with God:

• "And the LORD said to Moses, 'Is the LORD’s hand shortened? Now you shall see whether My word will come true for you or not'” (Numbers 11:23).
• "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).
• "‘Ah, Lord GOD! It is You who have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for You." (Jeremiah 32:17)
• "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?" (Jeremiah 32:27).
• "...with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26).
• "For all things are possible with God" (Mark 10:27).
• "Abba, Father, all things are possible for you" (Mark 14:36).
• "For nothing will be impossible with God" (Luke 1:37).

When the author of Hebrews, be it Paul or someone else ~ because we know Who the real Author is ~ says "it is impossible... to restore them again to repentance," he cannot be referring to God. Yes, it is impossible for God to lie, as he clearly says in reference to God later in that same chapter (and this is true of all sin; God cannot sin). But in Hebrews 6:4-6, in view of all the references above and more, he cannot be referring to God. As Jesus says, "with man, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26; Mark 10:27).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didn't say otherwise. God wants us to love everyone. Jesus commands us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44, Luke 6:27,35).

They are hated concerning the gospel. But beloeved concerning the election

they are israel. Who God elected to seperate from gentiles, give them land, and prove to the world he is a God of love.

 

[Timtofly]

Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's twelve sons were not yet born, so no, the covenant itself was just with Abram. He was the federal representative of all of his progeny, both in the immediate sense and the ultimate sense, which, in both cases is all those who have since believed God and had it credited to them as righteousness and thus of the Israel of God in the same way as Abraham.

Did this covenant then cease at Abraham's death?

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:"

God did not even specify which seed. He certainly did not single out Israel. That covenant would include those from Ishmael, Esau, and Israel.

God did keep evolving His Covenant, but I am not seeing where God ever took back any promise made on His end. The land was the first promise without any thing from Abram. It was not until God changed his name that the first condition was placed on Abraham. The first stipulation was circumcision.

"As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

So the only way to break this covenant was to refuse circumcision. It was still only the promise of much land to hold many nations.

Still not seeing how this would end at the physical death of Abraham. This covenant was everlasting, and based on ethnicity, and only for ethnicity. It was physical, to have physical land for Abraham's physical offspring, and would never end as long as there were physical offspring, who at this point were physically circumcised. This would not be revoked even with the Atonement Covenant. The Atonement Covenant was with all of humanity, thus did not replace nor change this Covenant God made with Abraham. God never revoked this Covenant. That is the whole point that the Cross did not replace this Covenant with Abraham. This was only a land covenant for Abraham's offspring to have a place to live. There was nothing one could do to be kicked off the land unless they refused circumcision.

Nor did this change with Israel and the Covenant of the Law. This Covenant covered Ishmael, Esau, and Israel as long as they were all circumcised.

"And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land."

We see God personally now extended this Covenant with Israel.

So there is literally nothing in Scripture that would prohibit Israel, once the blindness is removed, to once again take advantage of this promise, short of circumcision. The current state of this Covenant is the blindness from God, and the fact God dispersed them across the earth, and suspended both physical ethnicity, and a place to call home. There is literally nothing stopping God from reinstating this Covenant. Not even the Atonement Covenant effects this Covenant.

So I cannot see how so many posters here think that this promise made to Abraham changed from physical to spiritual. There is no spiritual land replacing the land given to physical offspring. No such thing as spiritual offspring, either. The only thing I see is those accused of accepting dispensations, are attacked by those, who deny a physical Israel will enjoy a physical earth for a thousand years post the physical Second Coming of the promised King of Israel. This King being physical Jesus. And even Paul made that point:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

The covenant is not taking away their sins. That is under the Atonement Covenant. The covenant includes the promises made to Daniel by God, delivered by Gabriel. Paul is still putting the promise on hold, until after the fulness of the Gentiles. That was the point of turning the punishment placed on Jacob, the removal of being Israel, and placed under ungodliness. The epitome of being cut off, even as individual branches. The ethnicity continued as Jacob. At the Second Coming, the ethnicity will be given back the name Israel, and all branches grafted back on to the tree will make all of Israel saved. But not just to the current condition of the church on earth today. The restoration will even remove Adam's punishment, and condemnation placed on Adam's offspring. Salvation will be written into human nature at conception. There will be no more sin, and the decay of death on the earth.

Still not a completed process. While the Cross was 100% completed on God's end, God has not removed the curse placed on creation, until the fulness of the Gentiles is complete.

 

[Timtofly]

Verses 1-8 and verses 9-17 describe the same group of people, verse 1-8 denoting the common heritage of all, and verses 9-17 denoting their full number, which is innumerable.

No they don't. The 144k are on earth.

The multitude is in Paradise.

Heritage has nothing to do with verses 1-8. A declared amount is being specific. Those in Paradise was not limited by a pre-arranged amount. The only thing preventing those in sheol from being part of those in Paradise was rejecting God. God did not set a limit on who would be saved.

The 144k are still on the earth while those in Paradise are with God. God is about to judge humanity. The 144k are sealed on earth to prevent that judgment directly affecting them. Those in Paradise are already sealed in the Blood of the Lamb. The 144k are redeemed by the blood, but not in Paradise nor sealed as in the church, called out assembly. The 144k are the firstfruits of the final harvest, and the Millennial Kingdom. They are sealed as disciples of Jesus as King during this second earthly ministry of obedience to God. Just as the original 12 were called and sealed as the firstfruits of the NT church.

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

They were sealed to not be hurt.

"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

Certainly not the firstfruits of the first century. The earth was not hurt by the Trumpet judgments then. Certainly not the firstfruits coming off the ark. Only 8 souls came off the ark. How can someone say this is just representative of all humanity?

All humanity was redeemed via the Cross. But not all of humanity would chose the Cross. The reason these firstfruits were sealed was to be in the constant company of Jesus on the earth during the final harvest. The final harvest being the GT or time of Jacob's trouble. Having a part in separating the sheep from the goats. Being a witness on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. Meaning Jesus comes to earth at the 6th Seal just before these descendants of Jacob are sealed, and Israel being restored in this sealing of 144k of Jacob's offspring.

The fulness of the Gentiles has been declared complete. That is why the entire church is in Paradise, and no longer on the earth. That is why they are:

"A great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

There is no distinction between Israel or Gentile here.

The fact that the 144k are still on earth and distinctly Israel means they don't represent the common heritage of those in verses 9-17.

Replacement theology has turned these literal events John saw into some twisted symbolic nonsense.

When these 144k were sealed, this is the first act of all those angels coming to earth.

"Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

That is not symbolic terminology, but physically being marked as redeemed. This is symbolic terminology declaring that angels have arrived on earth:

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal..... the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

"And I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit."

Between opening the 6th and 7th Seal, those angels in the 6th Seal, sealed the last of the redeemed, just before the 7th Seal was opened, and names would start being removed, now that the Lamb's book of life was unsealed. Those 144k had a specific purpose and part of that is revealed in Revelation 14 just before the last of Adam's dead corruptible flesh were pressed in the winepress of God's wrath, symbolic of being physically killed, thus ending Adam's punishment on earth. These all having being removed from the Lamb's book of life.

So the sheep and wheat of this final harvest, remain in the Lamb's book of life, but are not part of those in Revelation 7:9-17. The sheep and wheat along with the 144k are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. Their offspring are their heritage per Isaiah 65.

"They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them."

Those in Paradise are now like the angels and will not procreate. Those who remain in the Lamb's book of life after the 6th Seal, but on the earth, will fill the earth and subdue it.

The first half of Revelation 7 are those on the earth. The second half are those who have been in Paradise since the thief on the Cross was promised to be in Paradise that day. Paradise is a physical place enjoyed with physical bodies. Not Adam's dead flesh, but God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies. 2 Corinthians 5:1.

Surely the point God made to Abram and then to Israel will not change even after the Second Coming until the earth is subdued. The same point God made in Genesis 1.

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

"And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

So this creation cannot end until all things are subdued under the Kingdom of Jesus on earth. Humans without sin will subdue the earth as instructed in the original purpose of humans when placed on earth.