The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[PinSeeker]

God made a covenant with National Israel.

"National Israel" was not in existence yet, Eternally Grateful. He made a covenant with Abram, and promised to make him a nation.
"National Israel" was not a party to the covenant. Wow.

this covenant had nothing to do with anyone's salvation

Well, that's yours and Coventantee's argument. But you know... :) God did promise Abram a son (lesser)... and offspring numbering as the stars (greater), and since Isaac is, in the immediate sense, the child of the promise, and it is through Isaac that Abram's offspring are named (in the ultimate sense). Now, that might have been beyond Abram's immediate understanding, but yes, irrefutably, this pertains directly to God's purpose of election, as Paul says in Romans 9, then yes, it has everything to do with the salvation of all those whom God calls.

it had nothing to do with them obeying him

LOL! Yes it did... All the covenants God made (with Adam, Noah, Moses, David... and us) "have to do with" ~ obligate them to (lesser, immediate sense) obligate us to (greater, ultimate sense) ~ obedience.

what you call spiritual Israel. is actually the descendants of Abraham concerning another aspect of his covenant, "in you (literally in your seed) shall all the nations be blessed.

No, it's God's elect. Again the concepts of lesser/immediate and greater/ultimate/eternal manifestations are abundantly clear, here. This is true throughout Scripture. But dispensationalists, in their stubbornness, will not allow for that. It's heartbreaking, actually. But not salvific, so... it's okay. :) It's not disqualifying. But still heartbreaking.

The ultimate picture ~ again ~ is as follows:

Maybe Abraham ~ we can't say for sure ~ only saw the outer circle, but even if so, that would be consistent with Isaiah 55:8-9, that "(God's) thoughts are not (our) thoughts, neither are (our) ways (His) ways... For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are (God's) ways higher than (our) ways." But, we can still get it... :)

The seed of course, and I think we agree, is Christ

Ah, okay, well, if we are in Christ, which we are, then is Christ not our elder Brother? Are we not co-heirs with Him? I mean, you don't mean to, but you keep walking right into these things... :)

I am part of one of those nations (the united states) that God said would be blessed because of Abraham's seed...

See above. If you are in Christ, you are of Abraham's seed... in the eyes of God, which is really what matters.

I am not part of the promise given to Abraham concerning the national covenant...

See above. It was never a "national covenant" in the sense you are... holding onto so tightly to... :) I have to say, it is kind of ironic to me that you're seeing this covenant with Abraham as bigger than just Abraham ~ far beyond just him ~ but yet still absolutely refuse to see it in its true sense, even though both the Old Testament and the New make that abundantly clear. But so be it.

Once concerned eternal life. The other concerned a peace of property.

They are one and the same, but one ~ concerning a "piece of property" (a funny way to put it) ~ pointing to the larger, greater reality of the other ~ the earth, actually the new heaven and new earth, which will finally, when Jesus returns, be one.

...in neither case will God give up on the promise he made.

This I agree with... :)

If he does, He denies himself. because He made the promise its on Him!

Well, if He does, then He breaks the covenant, which of course He will not. So, sure. In that covenant He made with Abram, normally, both parties would walk between the animal halves together, thereby both saying, "If I break this covenant, what has been done to these animals shall be done to me." But, as we both know, He put Abram into a deep sleep and walked alone between the animal halves, thereby saying, "If I break this covenant, if I am not perfectly faithful, I will surrender my life, AND, if you break this covenant, if you are not perfectly faithful, I will surrender My life." In other words, God promises to bear the consequence, death, of failure to keep the covenant if either party to the covenant, He or Abram, fails to keep it. And He has done this on Abram's ~ and ultimately our ~ behalf, because he and we have failed, in the Person of Jesus Christ. So His promise is still good, and will be brought to full fruition ~ in the greater sense, the new heaven and new earth, which contains the lesser sense.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"National Israel" was not in existence yet, Eternally Grateful. He made a covenant with Abram, and promised to make him a nation.
"National Israel" was not a party to the covenant. Wow.

smh,

He made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac Jacob and his 12 sons.

That is national Israel..

 

[covenantee]

Nope. they are not my people. they are Gods

Those are mind too, of which I am a part of them

Mine is eternal. But so it there's

I am going to make a guess that you do not believe in eternal security do you

Gods promises are based on self. Not God and his word. do you believe this?

Christ is Eternal.

God's Promises are now based in Him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Christ is Eternal.

God's Promises are now based in Him.

They always have been

Christ made the covenant to Israel, It is up to him to keep it.

If he does not. his reputation is the one that is tainted.

 

[covenantee]

Many of them will go to hell

But that does negate the fact God gave the nation a plot of land.

Again, He did not promise them salvation.

Your stuck on replacement theology.. Its a lie..

The lie is your replacement biology, which is salvation by DNA.

It is an abomination of desecration.

 

[covenantee]

smh,

He made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac Jacob and his 12 sons.

That is national Israel..

He made a covenant with the faithful obedient of Israel.

Beginning with Abraham, then et al.

Individuals, every one of them.


The unfaithful disobedient, He slew.

Individuals, every one of them.

 

[covenantee]

They always have been

Christ made the covenant to Israel, It is up to him to keep it.

If he does not. his reputation is the one that is tainted.

Christ made a New Better Covenant with Better Promises.

He has more than kept His obligation.

Are you enjoying your silver?

 

[covenantee]

All covenants, regardless whether they are eternal or not, are two sided, in that there are obligations agreed to and consequences for not meeting those obligations agreed to, both ways. This is what a covenant is.

Precisely.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The lie is your replacement biology, which is salvation by DNA.

It is an abomination of desecration.

well if I tought salvation by DNA, you would have a point

But I have proven multiple times I do not. I have stated numerous times it was never about salvation. even in the post you just responded

which means you bear false witness. and are ignored..

 

[covenantee]

well if I tought salvation by DNA, you would have a point

But I have proven multiple times I do not. I have stated numerous times it was never about salvation. even in the post you just responded

which means you bear false witness. and are ignored..

So repeat after me:

Jewishness has nothing to do with salvation.

Salvation is by grace through faith alone, exactly the same for both Jew and Gentile.

Christ's Covenant is exclusively with those who have received His salvation.

Christ does not covenant with those who have not received His salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So repeat after me:

Jewishness has nothing to do with salvation.

Salvation is by grace through faith alone, exactly the same for both Jew and Gentile.

Yep.

But in God chosing them as a nation he never promised them salvation.

so your point is mute

You just proved my point

The covenant of land was never salvic in nature. It was possession of land given to their father, and peace

Since I have said numerous time these are two) that being jewish does not mean they are saved, it has nothing to do with salvation.

You just prove once again you bear false witness.

Good day sir..

 

[covenantee]

Since I have said numerous time these are two) that being jewish does not mean they are saved, it has nothing to do with salvation.

You just prove once again you bear false witness.

Good day sir..

Of what value is land to anyone when he is going to hell?

 

[PinSeeker]

smh,

LOL! Right back atcha... :) Yeah, me, too.. :)

He made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac Jacob and his 12 sons.

Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's twelve sons were not yet born, so no, the covenant itself was just with Abram. He was the federal representative of all of his progeny, both in the immediate sense and the ultimate sense, which, in both cases is all those who have since believed God and had it credited to them as righteousness and thus of the Israel of God in the same way as Abraham.

That is national Israel..

Well, if you were to mean that in the sense of God's national Israel...

• as Paul testifies, consisting of true Jews, those in Christ (Romans 2), as I have said, and ...to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles (Romans 9) and ...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved... the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy (Romans 11)
• as Peter testifies, ...we ourselves like living stones being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ, and in this way a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that we may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called us out of darkness into his marvelous light... once we were not a people, but now we are God’s people; once we had not received mercy, but now we have received mercy (1 Peter 2)

...then I would agree. But you do not, so, on your terms, I disagree, because they are very... short-sighted and thus very much incorrect. Concerning who Israel really is, Eternally Grateful, everyone contained in God's Israel, we can look at John's testimony in Revelation 7:

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.​

​

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!' 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, 'Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.' 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, 'Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?' 14 I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will shelter them with His presence. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their Shepherd, and He will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'”​

Verses 1-8 and verses 9-17 describe the same group of people, verse 1-8 denoting the common heritage of all, and verses 9-17 denoting their full number, which is innumerable.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

You don;t see anything.

I see you once again will not answer what you believe about eternal security.

Lets forget the promise to Israel. Do you believe God keeps his promise to his born again children> Or can that promise be lost also?

No to eternal security. God does not deprive anyone of their free will after they are saved. It is not easy, but it is possible, to abandon the faith (Hebrews 6:4-6). One notable example was Charles Templeton, associate evangelist with Billy Graham. He wrote a book, "Farewell to God".

Explain how a promise which is transcended by a better promise, is "lost".

Now your turn for a question that you've never answered: What is your explanation of Joshua 21:43, declaring that God fulfilled His land promise long ago?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

LOL! Right back atcha... :) Yeah, me, too.. :)


Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's twelve sons were not yet born, so no, the covenant itself was just with Abram. He was the federal representative of all of his progeny, both in the immediate sense and the ultimate sense, which, in both cases is all those who have since believed God and had it credited to them as righteousness and thus of the Israel of God in the same way as Abraham.


Well, if you were to mean that in the sense of God's national Israel...

• as Paul testifies, consisting of true Jews, those in Christ (Romans 2), as I have said, and ...to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles (Romans 9) and ...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved... the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy (Romans 11)
• as Peter testifies, ...we ourselves like living stones being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ, and in this way a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that we may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called us out of darkness into his marvelous light... once we were not a people, but now we are God’s people; once we had not received mercy, but now we have received mercy (1 Peter 2)

...then I would agree. But you do not, so, on your terms, I disagree, because they are very... short-sighted and thus very much incorrect. Concerning who Israel really is, Eternally Grateful, everyone contained in God's Israel, we can look at John's testimony in Revelation 7:

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.​

​

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!' 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, 'Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.' 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, 'Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?' 14 I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will shelter them with His presence. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their Shepherd, and He will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'”​

Verses 1-8 and verses 9-17 describe the same group of people, verse 1-8 denoting the common heritage of all, and verses 9-17 denoting their full number, which is innumerable.

Grace and peace to you.

No

You and your descendents after you.

The land was abrahams,

By proxy it automatically became his children’s (bot only the one seed Isaac)

then it passed to Jacob and his twelve sons, hence the 12 tribes of Israel.

The promise never stopped.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No to eternal security. God does not deprive anyone of their free will after they are saved.

I rest my case,

This person does not believe God keeps his eternal promises.

Nothign more needs said

 

[PinSeeker]

No

Yes.

The land was Abrahams, By proxy it automatically became his children’s (but only the one seed Isaac) then it passed to Jacob and his twelve sons, hence the 12 tribes of Israel.

In the lesser, immediate sense, yes, but in the greater, eternal sense, well, yes, also.

That's the relationship between the New Testament and the Old, in a nutshell. The New Testament is a continuation of the story begun in Genesis 1 (so the one page you can rip out of your Bible is the one between the Old Testament and the New). As it has been said, the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. The Bible is one book, composed of two testaments. Comprised of thirty-nine books, the Old Testament is God’s unfolding promise to his covenant people Israel. With twenty-seven books, the New Testament fulfills all the promises of the Old Testament in Christ, for Jew and Gentile alike. The New Testament explains the person and work of Christ by showing how he fulfills the Old Testament. Together these two testaments are a literary unity, progressively revealed. Modern readers must pay attention to the textual, covenantal, and canonical horizons to make sense of this one book.

The promise never stopped.

I have said time and time again that, no, it has never "stopped." Eternity is like that... ;)

I cannot understand why you insist on holding to such a limited view. But you're your own person.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

No to eternal security. God does not deprive anyone of their free will after they are saved.

Yeah, I'm gonna strongly disagree with you on this, too, Covenantee. Eternally Grateful asked me the same question back on page 19, and you can read my answer in post 374 if you haven't already. In a nutshell, it is impossible to credibly refute Paul in Romans 8:35-39 or Ephesians 1:5-14 or Philippians 1:6, or Peter in 1 Peter 1:3-5. I'm... quite surprised you would say this, honestly.

It is not easy, but it is possible, to abandon the faith (Hebrews 6:4-6).

The author of Hebrews is saying the same thing, basically, as John says in 1 John 2:19, that "you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." So, those who fall away were never regenerate of the heart, which is a work of God and... not thwartable.

One notable example was Charles Templeton, associate evangelist with Billy Graham. He wrote a book, "Farewell to God".

Ditto above; case in point. :)

Now your turn for a question that you've never answered: What is your explanation of Joshua 21:43, declaring that God fulfilled His land promise long ago?

Yeah, good question. We know why ET is avoiding it, I guess... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I rest my case,

Man, I sure hope so. Like, buried as deep underground as you can possibly get it; because that's where it should go... :)

Nothing more needs said

Well I agree, but something tells me you're not going to stop... :)

Just pokin' a little fun at you, Eternally Grateful. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

Yeah, I'm gonna strongly disagree with you on this, too, Covenantee. Eternally Grateful asked me the same question back on page 19, and you can read my answer in post 374 if you haven't already. In a nutshell, it is impossible to credibly refute Paul in Romans 8:35-39 or Ephesians 1:5-14 or Philippians 1:6, or Peter in 1 Peter 1:3-5. I'm... quite surprised you would say this, honestly.


The author of Hebrews is saying the same thing, basically, as John says in 1 John 2:19, that "you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." So, those who fall away were never regenerate of the heart, which is a work of God and... not thwartable.


Ditto above; case in point. :)


Yeah, good question. We know why ET is avoiding it, I guess... :)

Grace and peace to you.

Those of OT Israel who believed that their "chosenness" granted them "eternal security", and thus permitted them to behave as they pleased, ended up as corpses by the thousands.

They are lessons for those who think similarly today. God in His mercy withholds judgment today, but disaster awaits in eternity if there is not a return to the faith.

There will be multitudes in hell who believed that they could live as they pleased because they were "eternally secure".

There is absolutely no doubt that Charles Templeton was regenerate of heart until he repudiated his regeneration.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is conclusive, as it speaks of "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come".

Those descriptions can only refer to those who had experienced salvation.

But they ultimately repudiated it.

The same Paul who wrote Romans 8:35-39 et al, wrote Hebrews 6:4-6.