The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[Ronald Nolette]

By orthodox I mean conforming to established doctrine as held in the history of the church. By a preterist who is orthodox, I refer to one who believes Matt. 24:1-35 is a prediction of 70 AD and the end of the Jewish religion, and that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD, and in history these were considered within orthodox Christianity. Revelation chapter 20 refers to the general resurrection in our future. I am an Orthodox Preterist, and I believe THE LAST DAY, THE DAY OF JUDGMENT AND RESURRECTION IS IN OUR FUTURE. I am comfortable fellowshipping with those within orthodoxy who hold to historic pre-mil, a-mil and post-mil views, but NOT dispensationalism. I can fellowship with those who view Revelation as preterist, historist or futurist, but NOT the dispensational futurist which is not orthodox Christianity.

By heretical I mean unorthodox, a religious opinion that is a departure from and contrary to historic Christian doctrine as found among the writers of the church in history. I can show the Orthodox Preterist view in the church of the past. Dispensationalism cannot show their scheme prior to 1830 or so, and it's mainly found after the 1920s and the fundamentalist movement with its Scofield Bible.

Adam Clarke (1760-1832) Introduction to Revelation:
"Wetstein contends (and he is supported by very great men among the ancients and moderns) that "the book of the Revelation was written before the Jewish war, and the civil wars in Italy; that the important events which took place at that time, the greatest that ever happened since the foundation of the world, were worth enough of the Divine notice, as the affairs of his Church were so intimately connected with them; that his method of exposition proves the whole book to be a well-connected, certain series of events; but the common method of interpretation, founded on the hypothesis that the book was written after the destruction of Jerusalem, is utterly destitute of certainty, and leaves every commentator to the luxuriance of his own fancy, as is sufficiently evident from what has been done already on this book..."

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Joseph Benson (1749-1821) on Matt. 24:34:
"For he adds, This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled, Hereby evidently showing that he had been speaking all this while only of the calamities coming on the Jews, and the destruction of Jerusalem. “It is to me a wonder,” says Bishop Newton, “how any man can refer part of the foregoing discourse to the destruction of Jerusalem, and part to the end of the world, or any other distant event, when it is said so positively here in the conclusion, All these things shall be fulfilled in this generation."

Matthew 24 - Benson's Commentary of the Old and New Testaments - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Matthew 24, Benson's Commentary of the Old and New Testaments, Benson's Commentary enriches Christian understanding through meticulous historical analysis, providing profound insights into Scripture.

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By the above it is clear that the Orthodox Preterist understanding of Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation was clearly within the bounds of orthodoxy. The book of Revelation has historical been understood as preterist, historicist or futurist. All have been within orthodoxy. In the history of the church, historic premillennial, amillennial and postmillennial understanding have been considered within the bounds of orthodoxy. What IS NOT found before the mid-19th century is the modern heresy of dispensationalism. What is the difference between orthodox premillennialism and heretical dispensationalist premillennialism? The dispensational heresies are as follows:

1. Separating the church and Israel as two different people of God. For one thing, "church" is an ecclesiastical word not found in the Hebrew or Greek of the Bible. In both the OT and NT, God's people are referred to as the assembly of God or the congregation of God. Some translations prior to the KJV do not contain the word "church". You see this explained in the "Translators to the Readers" foreward found in the original KJV.

2. Introducing sacrifices into the supposed 1000-year reign of Christ(Eze 43:18-19), but Jesus is there in their midst, it can't be explained away as a memorial! That is blasphemy when compared to "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, 'he sat down at the right hand of God,'” (Heb 10:12 NRSV)

3. The historic premillennialist believed in two resurrections, one before and one after the millennium. Dispensationalists come up with at least three, one coming at the end of their supposed 7-year tribulation for those saved during those 7 years.

4. The dispensationalist misuse the term "rapture" with a completely different meaning than historically in the church. The rapture as in the "left behind" farce is totally foreign to the Bible. Two resurrections 7 years apart can hardly be both included as a "first resurrection", as claimed by dispensationalists. When you read men of God out of the past refer to the resurrection on "the last day", they refer to that as a "rapture", but that is not what dispensationalist think of as the rapture.

5. Dispensationalism perverts the KJV translation of a dispensation into something foreign to the Bible. The Greek the KJV translates as dispensation is οἰκονομία oikonomia, which means "administration" and the word actually occurs 7 times in the KJV NT and four are in Paul where the KJV translates as dispensation: 1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10; 3:2; Col 1:25. There is NO justification to invent 7 dispensations as if found in the Bible. There is the dispensation of the gospel and the prior dispensation of law. The "dispensation of law" would be implied by the contrast between law and gospel.

6. Dispensationalists deny that the body of Christ, the New Covenant assembly of God is the fulfillment of and continuation of Old Covenant Israel, as indicated in:

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16 REB)

Who is Israel today? Those who are the "new creation" as in "For anyone united to Christ, there is a new creation: the old order has gone; a new order has already begun." (2Cor 5:17 REB) We who are born from above, New Covenant believers in Jesus Christ, make up the Israel of today.

Well I would love to debate you, but as the title of your thread already poisoned the ground- it would be useless.

Preterism can only be accepted if one reinterprets Scripture allegorically.

All heremneutical methods of understanding Scripture are man made and have their flaws, but preterism is th emost heretical of them all.

 

[covenantee]

It was not the nation of Isreal.

God promised even if he scattered them, he would never forget them.

thats why it is called a remnent

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant (spelling) is not the nation.

That's why it's called a remnant.

 

[PinSeeker]

It was not the nation of Isreal.

God promised even if he scattered them, he would never forget them.

thats why it is called a remnent

You understand, Eternally Grateful, that God's nation of Israel, which includes all those whom He has called since the events of Genesis 3, regardless of ethnicity ~ the Israel He is still building today ~ is quite different than the physical nation-state of Israel as it exists today, right?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant (spelling) is not the nation.

That's why it's called a remnant.

The remnant are those of Israel who are saved.

if Israel is no longer a nation. there is no need for a remnant, You have a remnant because God is keeping the nation because he is not done with them

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You understand, Eternally Grateful, that God's nation of Israel, which includes all those whom He has called since the events of Genesis 3, regardless of ethnicity ~ the Israel He is still building today ~ is quite different than the physical nation-state of Israel as it exists today, right?

Grace and peace to you.

I understand God made a promise and gave a gift to a nation we call descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It was that nation who was given the promised land, then because of sins, God removed them as he said they would. But even after this, His promise still stands, He said if they repent, He will remember his promise that's why their is always a remnant.

God is not building Israel. he is building his church or his body, or the body of Christ. people need to seperate Israel and the church, they are not the same

When he returns, he will not only be the God of Israel. but he will be the god of the nations also..

 

[covenantee]

The remnant are those of Israel who are saved.

if Israel is no longer a nation. there is no need for a remnant, You have a remnant because God is keeping the nation because he is not done with them

What was the remnant called after 70 AD?

 

[covenantee]

people need to seperate Israel and the church

Like this?

Ephesians 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What was the remnant called after 70 AD?

Its still called a remnant, I have many of them in my church..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Like this?

Ephesians 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

For salvation.

Yes your correct

when are your going to open your eyes and realise Gods promise to Israel had nothing to do wth anyones salvation? It never did, it never will..

I doubt you will realise this, because from what I have witnessed, your closed minded

 

[PinSeeker]

I understand God made a promise and gave a gift to a nation we call descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Right, and this nation is called Israel, after Jacob, which I think you know. But Israel was not a nation-state then, and it is not now, even though there was a nation-state incorporated in 1948. The Israel of God and the Israel of men are two very different things. Some citizens of that nation-state incorporated in 1948 ~ we call them Israelis, and ethnic Jews ~ may be members of the Israel of God, but very possibly not. If any Israeli is not born again of the Holy Spirit and thus believe on Christ as his/her Lord and Savior, then he or she is not ~ not yet, anyway, because it is possible that he/she may yet be born again of the Holy Spirit ~ included in the Israel of God.

Now, again, on "descendants of Abraham Isaac, and Jacob," remember what Paul said in Romans 2, namely that "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter."

It was that nation who was given the promised land, then because of sins, God removed them as he said they would.

But not all of them, because some of them had faith and were believers, right? He didn't remove them from anything. If they were not believers, then even though they were Jewish outwardly, they were never included in ~ they were excluded from ~ the Israel of God.

God is not building Israel. he is building his church or his body, or the body of Christ.

He is building His Israel, the Israel of God, and this is the body of Christ. This has always been true, even since the events described in Genesis 3. We are all saved ~ and made part of the Israel of God ~ through faith; This is what the author of Hebrews ~ ultimately God Himself, by His Spirit ~ is saying in chapter 11 of that great letter. He is most definitely still building His Israel, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, that even we Gentiles are no longer strangers and aliens, but we are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him we also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

people need to seperate Israel and the church, they are not the same

Ah, well, there is some differentiating that needs to happen, but it's not Israel and the church, but rather the Israel of God and the physical nation-state of Israel, which was created not by God but by men in 1948. The Israel of God is made up of people from every tongue, tribe, and nation, those who, using Paul's words from Romans 8-11 ~ where he draws intensely from Moses and the prophets ~ are called by God according to His purpose... not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills... God's Israel includes even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles... a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved.

When he returns, he will not only be the God of Israel. but he will be the god of the nations also..

No, just Israel... :) ... the Israel of God, made up... yet again... of an innumerable multitude of folks ~ which no one can count... like the stars in the heavens, the grains of sand on the seashore, just like He told Abraham ~ from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

Its still called a remnant, I have many of them in my church..

What was it called between 70 AD and 1948?

 

[covenantee]

For salvation.

Yes your correct

when are your going to open your eyes and realise Gods promise to Israel had nothing to do wth anyones salvation? It never did, it never will..

I doubt you will realise this, because from what I have witnessed, your closed minded

When are you going to understand that God's promises under His New Will and Testament, the only Will and Testament now in force and effect, are fulfilled in Christ to Israel and all others? 2 Corinthians 1:20

But not until you trash those Darby/Scofield opaque racialized goggles.

 

[Truth7t7]

He took away the vineyard and gave it to someone else. Meanwhile, He keeps His promises that He's made, both to them and to us.

Much love!

God took away the vineyard from Israel and it was given to "The Church" the "Holy Nation" bringing forth fruits. God has no future promises or covenants with a National Israel as you claim, its John N. Darby 1830's & C.I. Scofield 1909 false teaching in propaganda

 

[GRACE ambassador]

"The Church" the "Holy Nation"

Never heard of that one.

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom (past/future)

(1) Concerns a kingdom: a political organization = "Nation Of Israel!"
(Daniel_2:44; Matthew_6:10 KJB!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” (online):

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
(Current = “But NOW!” Romans_3:21, 7:6, 16: 26; Ephesians_2:13 et al KJB!):

(1) Concerns A Body, HIS Church; a Living Organism = "The Body Of Christ!!"
(1_Corinthians_12:12, 27; Ephesians_4:12-16 KJB!)

Note: "Things That Differ" are = Not "the Same!!!"​

Prophecy:
(2) The kingdom to be established on earth
(Jeremiah_23:5; Matthew_6:10!)
RDf:

Again, Not "the Same!!!" ↑ ↓​

The Mystery:
(2) The Body {Church} Given a position in Heaven!
(Ephesians_1:3, 2:5-6; Colossians_3:1-3 KJB!)

Prophecy:
(3) Christ to be its King (Jeremiah_23:5; Isaiah_9:6-7 KJB!)
RDf:

The Mystery:
(3) CHRIST Is The Living Head Of HIS Body, The Church!
(Ephesians_1:19-23; Colossians_1:18 KJB!)...

Points 4-19 are here: "Bible Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

Amen.

 

[covenantee]

Never heard of that one.

Never heard of these?

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Truth7t7]

Never heard of that one.

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom (past/future)

(1) Concerns a kingdom: a political organization = "Nation Of Israel!"
(Daniel_2:44; Matthew_6:10 KJB!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” (online):

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
(Current = “But NOW!” Romans_3:21, 7:6, 16: 26; Ephesians_2:13 et al KJB!):

(1) Concerns A Body, HIS Church; a Living Organism = "The Body Of Christ!!"
(1_Corinthians_12:12, 27; Ephesians_4:12-16 KJB!)

Note: "Things That Differ" are = Not "the Same!!!"​

Prophecy:
(2) The kingdom to be established on earth
(Jeremiah_23:5; Matthew_6:10!)
RDf:

Again, Not "the Same!!!" ↑ ↓​

The Mystery:
(2) The Body {Church} Given a position in Heaven!
(Ephesians_1:3, 2:5-6; Colossians_3:1-3 KJB!)

Prophecy:
(3) Christ to be its King (Jeremiah_23:5; Isaiah_9:6-7 KJB!)
RDf:

The Mystery:
(3) CHRIST Is The Living Head Of HIS Body, The Church!
(Ephesians_1:19-23; Colossians_1:18 KJB!)...

Points 4-19 are here: "Bible Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

Amen.

Covenantee has answered you above, 1 Peter 2:5KJV the Church is (An Holy Nation)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Right, and this nation is called Israel, after Jacob, which I think you know. But Israel was not a nation-state then, and it is not now, even though there was a nation-state incorporated in 1948. The Israel of God and the Israel of men are two very different things. Some citizens of that nation-state incorporated in 1948 ~ we call them Israelis, and ethnic Jews ~ may be members of the Israel of God, but very possibly not. If any Israeli is not born again of the Holy Spirit and thus believe on Christ as his/her Lord and Savior, then he or she is not ~ not yet, anyway, because it is possible that he/she may yet be born again of the Holy Spirit ~ included in the Israel of God.

Now, again, on "descendants of Abraham Isaac, and Jacob," remember what Paul said in Romans 2, namely that "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." But not all of them, because some of them had faith and were believers, right? He didn't remove them from anything. If they were not believers, then even though they were Jewish outwardly, they were never included in ~ they were excluded from ~ the Israel of God.

Lev 26 answers the question.

Punishment for sins,, in 7 times increments, the final being what happened with Assyria, Babylon and eventually Rome in 70 AD.

But if they repent. God will remember the promise.

In Romans 11. Paul also called them enemies concerning the gospel. but beloved concerning the election. because the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

God does not renig (Go Back or Break) on his promises. To Israel. or the Church.

He is building His Israel, the Israel of God, and this is the body of Christ. This has always been true, even since the events described in Genesis 3. We are all saved ~ and made part of the Israel of God ~ through faith; This is what the author of Hebrews ~ ultimately God Himself, by His Spirit ~ is saying in chapter 11 of that great letter. He is most definitely still building His Israel, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, that even we Gentiles are no longer strangers and aliens, but we are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him we also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.


Ah, well, there is some differentiating that needs to happen, but it's not Israel and the church, but rather the Israel of God and the physical nation-state of Israel, which was created not by God but by men in 1948. The Israel of God is made up of people from every tongue, tribe, and nation, those who, using Paul's words from Romans 8-11 ~ where he draws intensely from Moses and the prophets ~ are called by God according to His purpose... not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills... God's Israel includes even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles... a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved.


No, just Israel... :) ... the Israel of God, made up... yet again... of an innumerable multitude of folks ~ which no one can count... like the stars in the heavens, the grains of sand on the seashore, just like He told Abraham ~ from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Grace and peace to you.

God did not make a specific promise to any Israel of men which consist of every nation tribe and language, only to physical descendents of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.


God said even if they disobay, and when they are captive in punishment, God will not forget them or his promise to them.

The promise given to all nation is that through abraham, all nations of the world will be blessed. And throughout the OT and NT, he has been fulfilling that promise.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What was it called between 70 AD and 1948?

whats 1948 have to do with anything? Israel is still in sin.. They have not been restored.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

When are you going to understand that God's promises under His New Will and Testament, the only Will and Testament now in force and effect, are fulfilled in Christ to Israel and all others? 2 Corinthians 1:20

But not until you trash those Darby/Scofield opaque racialized goggles.

So Gods ETERNAL promises do not mean anything?

Whatever man.

and there you go with your nonsense again.

when you can actually understand the bible and want to really discuss let me know

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Covenantee has answered you above, 1 Peter 2:5KJV the Church is (An Holy Nation)

The church was not given the promises only made to Israel (physical)

The church was saved through the promise of Abraham. The church are foreigners in a land not their own. and seek a better place (above) which they will receive.

It was never promised what was promised to Abraham, Isaac Jacob and his Sons (the 12 tribes of Israel) whcih, although a lesser gift (physical land and peace in that land) is still a gift.