The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[Timtofly]

Link to the post in which I claim that "any male of a different ethnicity was grafted into the natural tree producing a second ethnicity in a Covenantal relationship with God that you claim diversified the ethnicity of Jacob."

Link to the post in which I "keep implying the ethnicity of Jacob no longer exists."

Link to the post in which I "point out that God allowed it to happen".

Yes, comprised of diverse ethnicities from its birth and throughout its history.

 

[covenantee]

You forgot something.

It's called Scripture...which I supplied.

 

[Timtofly]

Not ethnic... :) Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel (Romans 9:6). But the restoration of Israel... the separation of the tares from the wheat (Matthew 13:40-42), the evil from the righteous (Matthew 13:49) for sure. Do you mean, Timtofly, specifically, Matthew 25:34-40? Because yes, those on Jesus's right are the ones who stand in the final Judgment, the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1), God's Israel, which includes all those called by God, both Jew and Gentile (Romans 9:23-24) and thus all Israel (Romans 11:25-26) and thus true Jews, those who are Jews not outwardly but inwardly, whose circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, whose praise is not from man but from God (Romans 2:28-29), His elect (Romans 9) and are resurrected to eternal life rather than to eternal judgment (John 5:28-29).

Not talking about Jews one bit. Nor Gentiles for that matter.

Israel will return as an ethnicity of God. There is no doctrine of mankind that can change God's mind, plan, and will.

Those sheep never physically die. That wheat never physically dies. Those are humans changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, but not the church which is raptured to Paradise. They are ethnic Israel living on the earth for the Day of the Lord. The wheat is the redeemed from all nations living on the earth during the Day of the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

You forgot something.

It's called Scripture...which I supplied.

No, you gave Scripture that said it could happen, permissible per the Law. I asked for proof that it did happen.

 

[covenantee]

No, you gave Scripture that said it could happen, permissible per the Law. I asked for proof that it did happen.

Joshua 8
35 There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.

See, it did happen.

 

[PinSeeker]

Not talking about Jews one bit. Nor Gentiles for that matter.

Well, that kind of leaves no one. :)

Israel will return as an ethnicity of God.

Well, as long as you define 'ethnicity' the way God does, which is neither Jew nor Gentile, but just those whom He elects and calls, then... okay. :)

There is no doctrine of mankind that can change God's mind, plan, and will.

Agreed. Not even God can/will change His mind, plan, or will. :)

Those sheep never physically die. That wheat never physically dies. Those are humans changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, but not the church which is raptured to Paradise. They are ethnic Israel living on the earth for the Day of the Lord. The wheat is the redeemed from all nations living on the earth during the Day of the Lord.

This... is a jumble of contradictory statements, really, and, well, just weird. :)

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[marks]

This... is a jumble of contradictory statements, really, and, well, just weird. :)

Not if you recognize his allusions. I do. I've not followed the conversation between you two, I just happened to notice this. You don't recognize his allusions so you just call it weird. That's how it is with ad hominems.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

Not if you recognize his allusions. I do.

I have no doubt... :) Actually, I do, too, if you're talking about Scriptural allusions, but they're just used in contradictory and, well, weird ways, so much so as to turn them on their respective ears, really. And the Day of the Lord refers to the time of Christ's return (he may actually agree with this, but it seems from his post otherwise).

...ad hominems

LOL! Not on him, personally, of course, but just his weird understandings of things. :) I mean, "never physically dies"...? Whatever happened to Hebrews 9:27? As far as I know that hasn't changed... And some humans are changed out of Adam's flesh (which refers to the sinful nature) but not the church? That one is completely contradictory. And on that great day (the Day of Christ), the day at which the good work God began in us will be brought to completion (Philippians 1:6), the final Judgment will ensue in short order, upon completion of which those on Jesus's left (Matthew 25) will depart (Matthew 7, 25). There will be no "rapture" wherein believers are removed for any period of time. So yeah, what he said was a jumble of contradictory statements and just strange... despite the Scriptural allusions... just wrong. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

, but just his weird understandings of things.

And you don't see this ad hominem? OK. All that means is "to the man", that is, you've stopped discussing the topic, and have begun to discuss the man.

I mean, for myself, I understood everything he was saying there. I'm not sure I agree with each bit, but I understand what he's saying. Characterize it however you want, that's what people do.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

And you don't see this ad hominem?

Ad hominem literally means "to the person" in New Latin (Latin as first used in post-medieval texts). So, to your question, by definition, no, it's not any kind of ad hominem ~ on him or anyone else.

All that means is "to the man", that is, you've stopped discussing the topic, and have begun to discuss the man.

Nope. None of what I have said reflects upon Timtofly as a person. See above. It can be perceived that way, but very often, perception and reality are quite different things.

What one thinks of a person personally can be influenced, at least in part, by how that person sees things and/or what he or she believes. But it is still possible to think the world of someone personally ~ or not have any opinion regarding that person personally, which is probably more the case here since I've never personally met Timtofly ~ regardless of what one thinks of how that person sees things and/or what he or she believes.

I mean, for myself, I understood everything he was saying there. I'm not sure I agree with each bit, but I understand what he's saying. Characterize it however you want, that's what people do.

Sure. Yes, I understood as well. But of course understanding doesn't necessitate agreement; agreement with someone does not necessarily follow from understanding said someone. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Joshua 8
35 There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.

See, it did happen.

Does not say they changed the ethnicity nor added another ethnicity as you were claiming.

 

[covenantee]

Does not say they changed the ethnicity nor added another ethnicity as you were claiming.

They were a different ethnicity from Abraham, hence their identification as strangers.

Get it?

 

[Timtofly]

Well, that kind of leaves no one.

Israel is still on earth. Egypt is a nation mentioned on earth. You all do have a different meaning for the Day of the Lord. But I prefer Peter's point. It makes sense considering that God created the earth to be full and vibrant, not desolate and empty.

 

[Timtofly]

They were a different ethnicity from Abraham, hence their identification as strangers.

Get it?

I understand completely. That is beside the point. The point is you claim there is no more physical ethnicity, nor will be ever again. You have not proven that claim once.

 

[covenantee]

I understand completely. That is beside the point. The point is you claim there is no more physical ethnicity, nor will be ever again. You have not proven that claim once.

The point is you are unable to provide a link to any post in which I've made such a claim.

 

[PinSeeker]

Israel is still on earth. Egypt is a nation mentioned on earth.

God's Israel was never and never will be a physical state in the way Egypt or any other nation-state was or is, even that physical nation-state that came to be in 1948 and of which Benjamin Netanyahu is now the Prime Minister. God's Israel always did and always will consist only of those He has called unto Himself, ultimately an innumerable multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation. This is God's Word 101. :) The King of God's Israel is Christ Jesus, of course, and as you must know, He was very clear in saying His kingdom is not of this world. Goodness gracious.

You all do have a different meaning for the Day of the Lord.

Yes, you seem to have, er, different meanings for quite a lot of things... :)

But I prefer Peter's point.

And what do you think that is, Timtofly? I'm sure this will be... interesting... :)

....God created the earth to be full and vibrant, not desolate and empty.

LOL! Well, yes... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The point is you claim there is no more physical ethnicity, nor will be ever again.

Do you "understand" me to have made such a claim, Timtofly? Because I have not; such would be quite stupid... and neither has Covenantee... But Covenantee and I would both agree that in God's Israel, which is very different than the nation-state called Israel since 1948, and physical ethnicities, while certainly a physical reality in the past, present, and future, have no bearing on whether one is of God's Israel in the past, present, or future, but only whether he or she has been called by God or not.

You have not proven that claim once.

Of course not, because he didn't make it. Again: goodness gracious.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Truth7t7]

He can remove His kingdom from them while continuing to hold them as a nation, just as He promised:

God removes the kingdom is disfavor, but he hols them as a nation in favor

That's a conflicting oxymoron don't ya think?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Apparently you don't know who did not "cease from being a nation before God for ever".

But God knows.

It was not the nation of Isreal.

God promised even if he scattered them, he would never forget them.

thats why it is called a remnent

 

[marks]

God removes the kingdom is disfavor, but he hols them as a nation in favor

That's a conflicting oxymoron don't ya think?

No I don't think that.

God in His covenant with Israel - the Mosaic Law - promised blessings for obedience, with Israel rich and powerful and glorious, and cursings for disobedience, culminating with expulsion from the land to serve the gentiles in captivity.

However that doesn't affect God's promise before that to give the land to Abraham and his descendants, that promise also given to Isaac and Jacob. Again this was before the Law, and the Law doesn't negate God's promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Whether they are living in the land or not, the land is theirs, according to God's promise.

The Bible even gives guidlines for how long that would be, that they would be in captivity for continued disobedience, and so indicates their return after that time.

It's like you own a house, and it's been red-tagged. You can't go in, you can't use it, but it's still yours. And maybe you can get the issues resolved, and take possession of it again.

In this it's the same way, God removes His Kingdom from them, but this doesn't change God's promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God is true, He does not lie. What He promises He does.

He took away the vineyard and gave it to someone else. Meanwhile, He keeps His promises that He's made, both to them and to us.

Much love!